Strokes Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 25 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: He’s not my favourite man but that’s a bandwagon of bollocks. Would you mind explaining a little please mate? You’re normally pretty consistent on the power of words and expressions towards minority groups. Unless I’m missing something, how come you feel this is different? I haven’t exactly made my mind up yet but I expected you to have a different stance to this tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Editorial from the Jewish Chronicle - Mr Corbyn is a liar. https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/there-is-only-one-word-for-jeremy-corbyn-1.461313 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 I know JOB is quite popular on here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonVirtine Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 hour ago, Strokes said: Labour have had so many antisemitic incidents since his leadership, it’s becoming harder and harder to not think there is truth to it. And before his time too. Ken Livingstone was accused of it a number of times. It is something that genuinely disturbs me. I've heard the 'Labour are antisemetic' remarks over the years but,whilst acknowledging that individual Labour Party members' remarks can be at best (to be charitable) ambiguous, I've never thought there was an institutional antisemitism. It's something I'm going to do a bit more reading about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 14 minutes ago, MattP said: Editorial from the Jewish Chronicle - Mr Corbyn is a liar. https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/there-is-only-one-word-for-jeremy-corbyn-1.461313 9 minutes ago, MattP said: I know JOB is quite popular on here.... Cheers, I think that clears any confusion up for me. Indefensible really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 9 minutes ago, CarbonVirtine said: And before his time too. Ken Livingstone was accused of it a number of times. It is something that genuinely disturbs me. I've heard the 'Labour are antisemetic' remarks over the years but,whilst acknowledging that individual Labour Party members' remarks can be at best (to be charitable) ambiguous, I've never thought there was an institutional antisemitism. It's something I'm going to do a bit more reading about. Ken didn’t really do much to disprove it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 First off, there does appear to be a problem with anti-Semitism going on in the Labour Party right now that extends beyond justified criticism of Israel. This isn't a good thing. With that in mind, however, I'm not sure that those on the other side of the political spectrum can really use that as a thing to bash Corbyn with without sounding like Anders Brevik telling Harold Shipman what he did was a bit strong. Stalin may have had his pogroms but it wasn't a left-wing regime that turned the extermination of Jews into an efficient, well-oiled machine, was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 6 minutes ago, leicsmac said: First off, there does appear to be a problem with anti-Semitism going on in the Labour Party right now that extends beyond justified criticism of Israel. This isn't a good thing. With that in mind, however, I'm not sure that those on the other side of the political spectrum can really use that as a thing to bash Corbyn with without sounding like Anders Brevik telling Harold Shipman what he did was a bit strong. Stalin may have had his pogroms but it wasn't a left-wing regime that turned the extermination of Jews into an efficient, well-oiled machine, was it? Nobody that holds racist/antisemitic views should be anywhere near politics, especially ones who conceal it. I think the yeah but argument is pretty weak tbf Mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Nobody that holds racist/antisemitic views should be anywhere near politics, especially ones who conceal it. I think the yeah but argument is pretty weak tbf Mac. I agree there's more than a little "whataboutery" going on here and I acknowledge that - I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of this being made out to be a uniquely left-wing issue right now, seems hypocritical to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 being anti capitalism isn’t equivalent to being antisemitic. Once again the right is projecting their own discrimination onto the left. There is no Jewish iconography on that mural. What there is is an obvious anticapitalist message, if you look at it and go straight to the conclusion that it’s antisemitic then your assuming that the ruling capitalist class portrayed on it are Jews. That’s antisemitic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonVirtine Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said: There is no Jewish iconography on that mural. I'm not sure I personally could go that far. I would want to know the artist's intentions before commenting definitively but I personally do find the caricatures, at my most charitable, to be clumsy. I certainly can see a stereotypical antisemitic interpretation and understand how that would be offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 22 minutes ago, leicsmac said: First off, there does appear to be a problem with anti-Semitism going on in the Labour Party right now that extends beyond justified criticism of Israel. This isn't a good thing. With that in mind, however, I'm not sure that those on the other side of the political spectrum can really use that as a thing to bash Corbyn with without sounding like Anders Brevik telling Harold Shipman what he did was a bit strong. Stalin may have had his pogroms but it wasn't a left-wing regime that turned the extermination of Jews into an efficient, well-oiled machine, was it? Anders Brevik isn't the leader of the conservative party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, Webbo said: Anders Brevik isn't the leader of the conservative party. And Harold Shipman isn't Labour leader, either. My point is that elements of both political wings have a reputation for anti-Semitism (one maybe more so than the other) and so no one is going to be able to score holier-than-thou political points on this one without looking like a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, CarbonVirtine said: I'm not sure I personally could go that far. I would want to know the artist's intentions before commenting definitively but I personally do find the caricatures, at my most charitable, to be clumsy. I certainly can see a stereotypical antisemitic interpretation and understand how that would be offensive. If you look at the figures and immediately think they are Jews then you’re an antisemite. There is nothing that would immediately make you think they are, unless you are an alt-right conspiracy theorist who believes there is a Jewish capitalist plot or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: And Harold Shipman isn't Labour leader, either. My point is that elements of both political wings have a reputation for anti-Semitism (one maybe more so than the other) and so no one is going to be able to score holier-than-thou political points on this one without looking like a hypocrite. I can't think of any examples of antisemitism in the conservatives in my lifetime. Tbf I couldn't in the labour until recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 3 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: If you look at the figures and immediately think they are Jews then you’re an antisemite. There is nothing that would immediately make you think they are, unless you are an alt-right conspiracy theorist who believes there is a Jewish capitalist plot or something. From the article in the Jewish chronicle. the artist himself confirmed they were intended as such, writing: “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, Webbo said: From the article in the Jewish chronicle. the artist himself confirmed they were intended as such, writing: “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are.” And anyone seeing the mural would know that the artist is an antisemitic? Clutching at straws or what. Fact is that Rothschild and Warburg are demons because they are using their access to capital to oppress the working class, not because they are Jewish. To even think that is disgusting anti semitism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonVirtine Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 3 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: If you look at the figures and immediately think they are Jews then you’re an antisemite. My own immediate reaction, because the image in the link isn't the best, was 'inconclusive'. I'd like to know the artist's intention because I can see the scope for interpretation. I personally don't see each and every character to be a Shylock portrayal (they could indeed just be portrayals of old white men, with the monopoly board - if it is that - representing capitalism) but I can see how it might be interpreted that way overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, Sharpe's Fox said: And anyone seeing the mural would know that the artist is an antisemitic? Clutching at straws or what. Fact is that Rothschild and Warburg are demons because they are using their access to capital to oppress the working class, not because they are Jewish. To even think that is disgusting anti semitism. Nice try but nobody's buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: I can't think of any examples of antisemitism in the conservatives in my lifetime. Tbf I couldn't in the labour until recently. Yeah, it's not nearly so much an issue in the UK as it is in other places, or in the past. That being said, you can't ignore history in this regard, even if it was a while back now and in the US right now the only vestige of anti-Semitism is the alt-right (though the attitude of US conservatives across the board towards Jews and Israel makes for an interesting case study on its own). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: Nice try but nobody's buying it. I only speak the truth, one which you cannot disprove. There is no obvious Jewish iconography on the mural, only Jewish caricature. If you believe the caricature you are an antisemite. There is obvious anticapitalism on the mural, but anti capitalism isnt equivalent to antisemitism. If you believe it is then you are an antisemite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 3 hours ago, Webbo said: If he wants to defend freedom of speech why is he threatening the rightwing press? He isn't. He's threatening owners that don't pay for the society we all live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said: I only speak the truth, one which you cannot disprove. There is no obvious Jewish iconography on the mural, only Jewish caricature. If you believe the caricature you are an antisemite. There is obvious anticapitalism on the mural, but anti capitalism isnt equivalent to antisemitism. If you believe it is then you are an antisemite. 5 minutes ago, Webbo said: Nice try but nobody's buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, toddybad said: He isn't. He's threatening owners that don't pay for the society we all live in. But only those that say bad things about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchsntf Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 5 hours ago, Strokes said: Why does it have to be about one single thing? I’m sure you don’t want to remain just so you can travel visa free? Why try to make it seem so simplistic? Do you think it makes you look brighter? We want travel visas for the bloody Fish!! And Not forgetting custom-checks for the migrating Birds. Brexiters Just wanted,better bargains at duty Free shops.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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