Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

Just now, Webbo said:

But only those that say bad things about him.

Find me a quote where he's only threatened the right wing media. If you can't it could be because you're making it up.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Find me a quote where he's only threatened the right wing media. If you can't it could be because you're making it up.

I'm sure we had a youtube video on here threatening the press just after the Agent Cob stuff came out. 

[Gerard]

Long time lurker on this thread but first time poster.

 

What is good about Brexit is that for once, the Eurosceptics will have to shut up about Britain's EU membership, which they have been whining about for the past 40 years, and give Europhiles a chance to sing the praises of the EU, while pointing out Brexit’s innumerable errors. Brexit is shattering Leaver’s illusions. Britain is a small island off the coast of Europe and we need to members of the European Union, the Single Market and the Customs Union to be politically and economically viable as a nation. This was always a consensus of politicians in all major political parties. But the Conservative party had to find a way to quell a minority of "bastards", to use John Major's term for the Eurosceptics in his Party. The method of choosing was the referendum. It didn't work in the short run, but in the long run it will, as the Eurosceptics now have enough rope to hang themselves.

 

While the Eurosceptics are hanging themselves, the country will be changing. Brexit is proving to be a disaster in every way. A divided nation, weakened, impoverished and regarded by the world as foolish if not insane. But there is a silver lining, a younger generation has been politicised. They have learned a valuable lesson; if you don’t get out and vote, you won’t get what you want, and may even lose what you take for granted. Half the country thinks that Brexit was a mistake, and this demographic will grow over time. The Remain camp will become the Rejoin camp. It is much easier to play opposition than govern. 86% of university students thought Brexit was wrong, and these are the people who will be teaching our children history, and running the country in 20 years.

 

Rejoining is therefore inevitable, and the Brexit process is good because it will show why we must rejoin. We are being educated about the European Union, we are learning of all the advantages and benefits as we lose them. We are learning what happens when a country leaves. The myths of the Leavers are being smashed, one by one. We don't hold all the cards, it's not possible to get better trade deals, we do need Freedom of Movement for our agricultural sector and NHS, and we need a voice at the table of the EU if we are going to have any relevance in the world. We need European Unity to stand up to Russia, China and multinational capitalism. Donald Trump is not our friend. We have a special relationship with the US based on shared history and culture but they will not give us any special favours. They are distant cousins, our family of nations is right here on our doorstep. Brexit will remove those Imperial illusions and make us want to be good Europeans. We will rejoin in a more whole hearted way, embracing the Euro and Shengen. 

 

I wonder what will happen first though? Will we rejoin the EU or lose our seat on the Security Council? We as a country and EU countries in general are not big countries population wise. As the developing countries catch up our economy will be overtaken by India, Brazil, Indonesia, etc. By leaving the EU we become less and less relevant on the world stage.

[Webbo]

20 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Find me a quote where he's only threatened the right wing media. If you can't it could be because you're making it up.

 

On 20/02/2018 at 21:53, Sharpe's Fox said:

 

 

A B S O L U T E

   O

   Y

Mentions The Sun, The Mail, The Telegraph and The Express at the start of the video.

[Nuneatonfox in Manchester]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Editorial from the Jewish Chronicle - Mr Corbyn is a liar.

 

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/there-is-only-one-word-for-jeremy-corbyn-1.461313

Jeremy Corbyn in Jew hating shocker 

 

It’s almost like he’s not actively associated himself with people who literally call for all Jews to be wiped off the face of the earth 

 

I await leftist outrage ............

Edited 24 March 2018 by Nuneatonfox in Manchester

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Nuneatonfox in Manchester said:

Jeremy Corbyn in Jew hating shocker 

 

It’s almost like he’s not actively associated himself with people who literally call for all Jews to be wiped off the face of the earth 

 

I await leftist outrage ............

Point made above stands.

[Guest MattP]

39 minutes ago, CarbonVirtine said:

I'm not sure I personally could go that far. I would want to know the artist's intentions before commenting definitively.

It's in the Jewish Chronicle article.

 

He openly admits to upsetting Jews by portraying "their beloved".

 

37 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And Harold Shipman isn't Labour leader, either.

 

My point is that elements of both political wings have a reputation for anti-Semitism (one maybe more so than the other) and so no one is going to be able to score holier-than-thou political points on this one without looking like a hypocrite.

It's not about point scoring, we are now in a position where the main opposition party in my country is led by a bigot and barely a day passes without some antisemitic incident in it. I don't expect any Corbyn voter to go off him because it's a cult but we have to keep mentioning these things so in a few years time they can't complain that they weren't warned.

   

Your reaction to this would be so different if that response was from Donald Trump and you know it. You wouldn't utter a single word of mitigation or start pointing out that the left do it as well. 

[Guest MattP]

To be honest his lying is as bad as his antisemitism - laughable he can claim to defend free speech given his past.

[leicsmac]

Just now, MattP said:

It's in the Jewish Chronicle article.

 

He openly admits to upsetting Jews by portraying "their beloved".

 

It's not about point scoring, we are now in a position where the main opposition party in my country is led by a bigot and barely a day passes without some antisemitic incident in it. I don't expect any Corbyn voter to go off him because it's a cult but we have to keep mentioning these things so in a few years time they can't complain that they weren't warned.

   

Your reaction to this would be so different if that response was from Donald Trump and you know it. You wouldn't utter a single word of mitigation or start pointing out that the left do it as well. 

1

I thought I already did - my first words on the topic, come to that.

 

This issue should absolutely be raised, but don't expect me to believe this isn't being used for point-scoring from some areas.

[CarbonVirtine]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's in the Jewish Chronicle article.

Well, indeed. For all I know, a selected quote out of context to support their pov - which, in fairness, is what many a newspaper article might do.  Without disrespect nor prejudgement, I'd like to read a fuller comment from the artist. 

 

 

[breadandcheese]

1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

being anti capitalism isn’t equivalent to being antisemitic. Once again the right is projecting their own discrimination onto the left. There is no Jewish iconography on that mural. What there is is an obvious anticapitalist message, if you look at it and go straight to the conclusion that it’s antisemitic then your assuming that the ruling capitalist class portrayed on it are Jews. That’s antisemitic. 

No.  You arr 100% wrong. The words of the artist back in 2012:

 

“The banker group is made up of Jewish and white Anglos. For some reason they are saying I am anti-Semitic. This I am most definitely not… What I am against is class.”

 

Clearly, the artist was using Jewish stereotypes and mixing them up with anti-capitalism. The rest of his argument was ridiculous. 

[Beechey]

55 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Long time lurker on this thread but first time poster.

 

What is good about Brexit is that for once, the Eurosceptics will have to shut up about Britain's EU membership, which they have been whining about for the past 40 years, and give Europhiles a chance to sing the praises of the EU, while pointing out Brexit’s innumerable errors. Brexit is shattering Leaver’s illusions. Britain is a small island off the coast of Europe and we need to members of the European Union, the Single Market and the Customs Union to be politically and economically viable as a nation. (Justify this...) This was always a consensus of politicians in all major political parties. But the Conservative party had to find a way to quell a minority of "bastards", to use John Major's term for the Eurosceptics in his Party. The method of choosing was the referendum. It didn't work in the short run, but in the long run it will, as the Eurosceptics now have enough rope to hang themselves.

 

While the Eurosceptics are hanging themselves, the country will be changing. Brexit is proving to be a disaster in every way. A divided nation, weakened, impoverished and regarded by the world as foolish if not insane. But there is a silver lining, a younger generation has been politicised. They have learned a valuable lesson; if you don’t get out and vote, you won’t get what you want, and may even lose what you take for granted. Half the country thinks that Brexit was a mistake, and this demographic will grow over time. The Remain camp will become the Rejoin camp. It is much easier to play opposition than govern. 86% of university students thought Brexit was wrong, and these are the people who will be teaching our children history, and running the country in 20 years.

 

Of course in the event of wanting to rejoin after going through the process of leaving, creating our own FTA's etc, what argument could be made for rejoining and voiding likely a significant majority of the FTA's we created whilst outside, as well as giving up membership of the WTO? To rejoin we'd be forced to accept FoM (which most people in this country oppose), accept the Euro as our currency (which most in this country oppose) and join Schengen (which most oppose), and voiding the rebate we had when we were last in. The argument to rejoin won't be as easy as you seem to think.

 

Rejoining is therefore inevitable, and the Brexit process is good because it will show why we must rejoin. We are being educated about the European Union, we are learning of all the advantages and benefits as we lose them. We are learning what happens when a country leaves. The myths of the Leavers are being smashed, one by one. We don't hold all the cards, it's not possible to get better trade deals, we do need Freedom of Movement for our agricultural sector and NHS, and we need a voice at the table of the EU if we are going to have any relevance in the world. We need European Unity to stand up to Russia, China and multinational capitalism. Donald Trump is not our friend. We have a special relationship with the US based on shared history and culture but they will not give us any special favours. They are distant cousins, our family of nations is right here on our doorstep. Brexit will remove those Imperial illusions and make us want to be good Europeans. We will rejoin in a more whole hearted way, embracing the Euro and Shengen. 

 

Again, we've not even left yet nor have the ability to even negotiate our own FTA's yet, and yet you state (I imagine with almost no experience in the matter, because who does?) that we'll get no better FTA's than we have now. What evidence is there for this? Not a single one has entered the negotiating period. We'll never opt to join the Euro or Schengen, to think that is naive and mad.

 

Imperial delusions... Christ.

 

I wonder what will happen first though? Will we rejoin the EU or lose our seat on the Security Council? We as a country and EU countries in general are not big countries population wise. As the developing countries catch up our economy will be overtaken by India, Brazil, Indonesia, etc. By leaving the EU we become less and less relevant on the world stage.

 

Again you must research some more. In order to lose a seat on the UNSC, no permanent member must veto (we are a permanent member). Why the ever loving hell would we agree to kneecap ourselves? It's not happening, and never will.

 

Edited 24 March 2018 by Beechey

[Nuneatonfox in Manchester]

1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

being anti capitalism isn’t equivalent to being antisemitic. Once again the right is projecting their own discrimination onto the left. There is no Jewish iconography on that mural. What there is is an obvious anticapitalist message, if you look at it and go straight to the conclusion that it’s antisemitic then your assuming that the ruling capitalist class portrayed on it are Jews. That’s antisemitic. 

The guy who did it admits its “Jewish folk” he’s portraying 

 

At least it’s not islamaphobic though eh, because that would be an issue.

[Guest MattP]

41 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Long time lurker on this thread but first time poster.

 

What is good about Brexit is that for once, the Eurosceptics will have to shut up about Britain's EU membership, which they have been whining about for the past 40 years, and give Europhiles a chance to sing the praises of the EU, while pointing out Brexit’s innumerable errors. Brexit is shattering Leaver’s illusions. Britain is a small island off the coast of Europe and we need to members of the European Union, the Single Market and the Customs Union to be politically and economically viable as a nation. This was always a consensus of politicians in all major political parties. But the Conservative party had to find a way to quell a minority of "bastards", to use John Major's term for the Eurosceptics in his Party. The method of choosing was the referendum. It didn't work in the short run, but in the long run it will, as the Eurosceptics now have enough rope to hang themselves.

 

While the Eurosceptics are hanging themselves, the country will be changing. Brexit is proving to be a disaster in every way. A divided nation, weakened, impoverished and regarded by the world as foolish if not insane. But there is a silver lining, a younger generation has been politicised. They have learned a valuable lesson; if you don’t get out and vote, you won’t get what you want, and may even lose what you take for granted. Half the country thinks that Brexit was a mistake, and this demographic will grow over time. The Remain camp will become the Rejoin camp. It is much easier to play opposition than govern. 86% of university students thought Brexit was wrong, and these are the people who will be teaching our children history, and running the country in 20 years.

 

Rejoining is therefore inevitable, and the Brexit process is good because it will show why we must rejoin. We are being educated about the European Union, we are learning of all the advantages and benefits as we lose them. We are learning what happens when a country leaves. The myths of the Leavers are being smashed, one by one. We don't hold all the cards, it's not possible to get better trade deals, we do need Freedom of Movement for our agricultural sector and NHS, and we need a voice at the table of the EU if we are going to have any relevance in the world. We need European Unity to stand up to Russia, China and multinational capitalism. Donald Trump is not our friend. We have a special relationship with the US based on shared history and culture but they will not give us any special favours. They are distant cousins, our family of nations is right here on our doorstep. Brexit will remove those Imperial illusions and make us want to be good Europeans. We will rejoin in a more whole hearted way, embracing the Euro and Shengen. 

 

I wonder what will happen first though? Will we rejoin the EU or lose our seat on the Security Council? We as a country and EU countries in general are not big countries population wise. As the developing countries catch up our economy will be overtaken by India, Brazil, Indonesia, etc. By leaving the EU we become less and less relevant on the world stage.

Jesus. where to start with this? Beechey has done most of the response but a couple of quick points before I go out (I'll try and respond in full on Monday)

 

People's views change over time, the people who overwhemingly took us into the common market were also the people in the main who took us out of the European Union, they saw what it became and they didn't like it, the idea that all the kids will still be EU fanatics in 20 years is fanciful.

 

Rejoining with the Euro? Last poll I saw had support for that at about 17% - I'm amazed at how easy you think the argument for rejoining is going to be, deluded almost. Saying we need Freedom of Movement for our NHS is just insulting to the doctors and nurses of the nation, not to mention those people in the wider World who would love to come and work here who don't have the privledge of being born in Europe.

 

No idea how you come to any sort of conclusion that we could lose our seat on the Security council, what makes you think that could happen?

[breadandcheese]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

First off, there does appear to be a problem with anti-Semitism going on in the Labour Party right now that extends beyond justified criticism of Israel. This isn't a good thing.

 

With that in mind, however, I'm not sure that those on the other side of the political spectrum can really use that as a thing to bash Corbyn with without sounding like Anders Brevik telling Harold Shipman what he did was a bit strong.

 

Stalin may have had his pogroms but it wasn't a left-wing regime that turned the extermination of Jews into an efficient, well-oiled machine, was it?

I'm not really sure the point you're making. anti-Semitic views have no place in politics, which, based on your previous foxestalk posts, I know you agree with. The fact that the leader of the Labour party allows these views to flourish and does little to challenge them should be worrying for any decent member of society.  In my eyes, this is not an issue of left or right. It is about right or wrong. 

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

And anyone seeing the mural would know that the artist is an antisemitic? Clutching at straws or what. Fact is that Rothschild and Warburg are demons because they are using their access to capital to oppress the working class, not because they are Jewish. To even think that is disgusting anti semitism.

Even Corbyn admits the mural is antisemitic, his excuse is he didn’t notice when he supported it. 

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Even Corbyn admits the mural is antisemitic, his excuse is he didn’t notice when he supported it. 

He claimed he didn't see it.

 

Like a racist Arsene Wenger. 

Edited 24 March 2018 by MattP

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, breadandcheese said:

I'm not really sure the point you're making. anti-Semitic views have no place in politics, which, based on your previous foxestalk posts, I know you agree with. The fact that the leader of the Labour party allows these views to flourish and does little to challenge them should be worrying for any decent member of society.  In my eyes, this is not an issue of left or right. It is about right or wrong. 

As I touched on with Matt I'm absolutely with you on this - anti-Semitism shouldn't be tolerated and should be challenged wherever it arises. However (and this could well be whataboutery, yes) I am pointing out that no particular end of the political spectrum can really pass judgement on the others on this issue at this time without looking a bit hypocritical.

 

It should totally be highlighted, but as a problem across the board IMO. Again, this could be considered a deflection, but I think it broadly accurate.

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

From the article in the Jewish chronicle.

 the artist himself confirmed they were intended as such, writing: “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are.”

 

1 hour ago, MattP said:

It's in the Jewish Chronicle article.

 

He openly admits to upsetting Jews by portraying "their beloved".

 

1 hour ago, CarbonVirtine said:

Well, indeed. For all I know, a selected quote out of context to support their pov - which, in fairness, is what many a newspaper article might do.  Without disrespect nor prejudgement, I'd like to read a fuller comment from the artist. 

 

Wikipedia has a fuller version of the artist's reply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mear_One#Brick_Lane_mural

"In response, Mear One denied the mural was racist, and was quoted in The Independent as saying that the mural is about 'class and privilege', and pointed out that the figures depicted include both 'Jewish and white Anglos'. However, he was also quoted in the Jewish Chronicle as saying, 'Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are' (in reference to the Warburg family)".

 

So, the Jewish Chronicle does indeed seem to have quoted selectively to support its POV. I do wonder whether certain posters would so blindly believe a report hostile to the Tories in "The Islamic Chronicle"?

 

That's not to deny that Corbyn was silly to make his "right-on" Facebook comment back in 2012 - though there's obviously a reason as to why it's being dredged up 6 years later. I hear the grinding of axes and see the slinging of mud.

Nor is it to deny that Labour has a particular issue over pro-Palestinian sentiment spilling over into anti-Israel sentiment, then sometimes anti-semitism. That particular issue might be one to which Labour is prone, but racism exists in all parties. Corbyn is right to apologise - as the Tories were right to suspend their MP recently for her "niggers in the woodpile" comment. While freedom of speech and the freedom to offend are important, some caution is required.

 

But is that mural explicitly anti-semitic? I see a group of bankers/businessmen depicted to look unappealing. But which of them are clearly Jewish? Maybe I'm naive, but I suspect different people will see different things.

For me, the bloke on the left definitely looks a bit Fagin/Abraham, the second and fifth blokes look to "white Anglos", the third bloke has a hooked (potentially Jewish?) nose, the fourth bloke has a darker skin but looks more Indian, the bloke on the right has a big nose, might well be Jewish but not 100% clear.....

 

 

 

Which are the bits of this image that you find anti-semitic, as opposed to anti-capitalist (some of the capitalists maybe being Jewish, others not)?

 

Also, is it now never permissible to produce a negative depiction of someone who happens to be Jewish?

 

Some elements of this make me a bit queasy, but the central purpose of the art is clearly to attack big capital (the monopoly board is a fairly big clue!), not to attack Jews.

It's not on a par with the Mail cartoon at the height of the refugee crisis a couple of years back, depicting stereotypical migrants arriving with rats. Did Matt & co express the same ire at the Mail for its much, much clearer racism (attacking identity as "rats", not actions as "filthy capitalists", some Jewish, some not)?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/daily-mail-nazi-refugee-rat-cartoon_us_564b526ee4b06037734ae115

 

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

6 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Labour's new campaing slogan: For the many, not the jew

 

On a lighter note, had to laugh at this one.....hats off, Kopf!

(puns always intended)

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Did Matt & co express the same ire at the Mail for its much, much clearer racism (attacking identity as "rats", not actions as "filthy capitalists", some Jewish, some not)?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/daily-mail-nazi-refugee-rat-cartoon_us_564b526ee4b06037734ae115

 

I don't read the Mail so can't remember this picture.

 

If a Tory leader had made a comment on it though that defended that picture I would condemn it and then openly say that person isn't fit to lead a potential party of government.

 

I certainly wouldn't make every excuse in the book for it.

[Webbo]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

 

 

 

Whataboutery? 

 

It's not like this is an isolated incident.

[Alf Bentley]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

I know JOB is quite popular on here....

 

 

 

I won't go on about the "anti-semitism" bit as I've already addressed that. But I do wonder whey O'Brien is linking it to the sacking of Owen Smith?

Because he approves of a second referendum, I presume? It cannot be a free-speech issue, surely?

 

Much as I'd like to see Brexit reversed, Smith clearly spoke out against party policy on an important issue - an absolute no-no for a front bench spokesman.

Some support having a second referendum, but I don't - at least, not yet and maybe never. Until such time as there's a groundswell of support for it, it would just be massively divisive, I think.

 

I reckon it's perfectly valid for backbenchers (e.g. Umunna) to do that - and would have been valid for Smith to have resigned his post and devoted his time to campaigning for another referendum.

I suppose Corbyn could have opted for a lesser form of discipline, but can quite understand the sacking.

Does anyone seriously think Theresa would have been happy if one of her ministers had advocated a second referendum? It conflicts with Labour policy (currently, at least), just as it would conflict with Tory policy.

[Webbo]

Dianne Abbot called for another referendum a few months ago and wasn't sacked. Owen Smith was sacked (not that I care) to distract from Corbyn's antisemitic blunder.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

 

Mentions The Sun, The Mail, The Telegraph and The Express at the start of the video.

Is he saying that media that don't agree with him will be closed or is he saying watch out press barons change is coming? 

And does he explicitly say he wants to open up the free press?