Guest Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: Well now's your chance to show your superiority. Tell us what you think about Corbyn's antisemitism? That it doesn't exist. What do you think about the homelessness figures? Edited 24 March 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: That it doesn't exist. What do you think about the homelessness figures? I think there are many reasons and just blaming the govt is a bit pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: That it doesn't exist. What do you think about the homelessness figures? They're anti-semitic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: I think there are many reasons and just blaming the govt is a bit pathetic. I haven't blamed anybody yet. But as you clearly have a strong opinion I'd like you tell tell me more. What are the non-government reasons for it shooting up in recent years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, toddybad said: I haven't blamed anybody yet. But as you clearly have a strong opinion I'd like you tell tell me more. What are the non-government reasons for it shooting up in recent years? No, don't try and change the subject. Give me more details about Corbyn's non existent antisemitism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 10 minutes ago, Strokes said: You know it’s been dragged up by a Labour MP don’t you? I saw that Luciana Berger had condemned it, but hadn't realised that she was the one who first highlighted it - if that's the case. If so, I'm not sure that changes anything. We both know that the "antisemitic Corbyn" theme is one of several themes that hostile media have been using to smear him, along with "Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser" and even "Corbyn the commie spy". Whoever raised it did so to cause damage. Whoever it was knew that opponents at every level will use it to throw mud - even though he's done very little wrong here, in my view. I say that as someone who finds plenty to criticise in Corbyn without resorting to smears. If Berger did publicise it first, that says something bad about internal party relations (though you get some internal sniping in every party). It doesn't show her in a good light, either. If she thinks that he's done something very wrong here (I don't), she should be raising it as a complaint privately within the party, not publicising it on Twitter. Mind you, one of my criticisms of Corbyn is that he should be doing more to bring some of the "moderates" on board. That was my only concern with the Owen Smith sacking - that he'd sacked one of the minority of spokespeople who weren't signed-up Corbynistas (though Starmer and a few others remain), though I found the sacking quite justified. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 12 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: Be in no doubt that the mural is antisemitic as the artist intended, but it isn’t obviously antisemitic at first glance due to the lack of Jewish iconography. It can only be realised it’s antisemitic after research and discussion into the real life figures it presents Please enlighten me, I've been trying to figure out who's depicted but everything I search gets blocked up with recent news stories with no useful information about the mural itself beyond it containing offensive caricatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 41 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Humour me..... - How many of the 6 blokes in the mural look Jewish to you? (I'd struggle to see more than 2-3 as looking Jewish) - Given that the mural is clearly attacking big capital (monopoly board etc.), how can the purpose be antisemitic if several of the people attacked are not Jewish? - Is it now impossible to caricature anyone as looking Jewish - or having any other racial origin? No more cartoons of Kissinger - or Abbott? I thought it was us lefties who were slated for "political correctness gorn mad"? Sorry for self-quoting, but I'd still be genuinely interested to hear answers to the questions above from anyone who believes the mural to have been antisemitic. Is it no longer permissible to caricature anyone who looks Jewish in case it is construed as antisemitism? Must all "filthy capitalists" or other ogres now be depicted as white Anglo-Saxons or some other ethnicity? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadandcheese Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said: exactly what I’m on about lads. Caricatures and untruths picked up by the right to argue that anti capitalism is antisemitic. and another Seriously? It's possible to be anti-capitalist without resorting to imagery of a Jew around a table controlling world capital. The two are unrelated, until you start using old anti-Semitic images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Sorry for self-quoting, but I'd still be genuinely interested to hear answers to the questions above from anyone who believes the mural to have been antisemitic. Is it no longer permissible to caricature anyone who looks Jewish in case it is construed as antisemitism? Must all "filthy capitalists" or other ogres now be depicted as white Anglo-Saxons or some other ethnicity? I did answer that section but to expand on your other points. If the cartoon is about Dianne Abbot then obviously the caricature would depict her as a black woman. If you have a cartoon about a random mugging and the mugger is depicted as black then it can obviously give racial connotations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Please enlighten me, I've been trying to figure out who's depicted but everything I search gets blocked up with recent news stories with no useful information about the mural itself beyond it containing offensive caricatures. I don’t blame you. It isn’t obvious who the men at the table are unless, like some posters on here, you can immediately pick them out by “the noses” or that “Jews control the world through international finance”. Many sources can be found that indicate antisemite nut jobs believe Rothschilds, one of whom is depicted, are at the centre of international conspiracies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family#Conspiracy_theories however unless you know who the painting depicts it isn’t immediantly obvious the mural is antisemitic unless you’re into that sort of thing. Edited 24 March 2018 by Sharpe's Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadandcheese Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Sorry for self-quoting, but I'd still be genuinely interested to hear answers to the questions above from anyone who believes the mural to have been antisemitic. Is it no longer permissible to caricature anyone who looks Jewish in case it is construed as antisemitism? Must all "filthy capitalists" or other ogres now be depicted as white Anglo-Saxons or some other ethnicity? The issue is why include Jews in it at all? Of course it's possible to caricature Jews. But can any artists think of ways to do it that don't borrow from anti-Semitic stereotypes of last century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 4 minutes ago, breadandcheese said: Seriously? It's possible to be anti-capitalist without resorting to imagery of a Jew around a table controlling world capital. The two are unrelated, until you start using old anti-Semitic images. How it is immediately obvious they are Jews to you though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadandcheese Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, Sharpe's Fox said: I don’t blame you. It isn’t obvious who the men at the table are unless, like some posters on here, you can immediately pick them out by “the noses” or that “Jews control the world through international finance”. Many sources can be found that indicate antisemite nut jobs believe Rothschilds, one of whom is depicted, are at the centre of international conspiracies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family#Conspiracy_theories however unless you know who the painting depicts it isn’t immediantly obvious the mural is antisemitic unless your into that sort of thing. Or the author says that he has depicted Jews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 27 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: Be in no doubt that the mural is antisemitic as the artist intended, but it isn’t obviously antisemitic at first glance due to the lack of Jewish iconography. It can only be realised it’s antisemitic after research and discussion into the real life figures it presents Thank you, at least a coherent response that I can understand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 (edited) Mozart's opera The Magic Flute is openly both sexist and racist, yet looky here, who does Theresa May have in her selection for Desert Island discs? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04pr6q9/segments You guessed it: Mozart! #proofthatmayisracist #proofthatmayhateswomen #outrageoutrageoutrage Edited 24 March 2018 by Rogstanley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 20 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I saw that Luciana Berger had condemned it, but hadn't realised that she was the one who first highlighted it - if that's the case. If so, I'm not sure that changes anything. We both know that the "antisemitic Corbyn" theme is one of several themes that hostile media have been using to smear him, along with "Corbyn the terrorist sympathiser" and even "Corbyn the commie spy". Whoever raised it did so to cause damage. Whoever it was knew that opponents at every level will use it to throw mud - even though he's done very little wrong here, in my view. I say that as someone who finds plenty to criticise in Corbyn without resorting to smears. If Berger did publicise it first, that says something bad about internal party relations (though you get some internal sniping in every party). It doesn't show her in a good light, either. If she thinks that he's done something very wrong here (I don't), she should be raising it as a complaint privately within the party, not publicising it on Twitter. Mind you, one of my criticisms of Corbyn is that he should be doing more to bring some of the "moderates" on board. That was my only concern with the Owen Smith sacking - that he'd sacked one of the minority of spokespeople who weren't signed-up Corbynistas (though Starmer and a few others remain), though I found the sacking quite justified. I don’t give a shit about Smith tbh, the blokes a worm, but his sacking has opened up old wounds for sure. I think there was a pact in the shadow cabinet to focus on the things they agreed on and pressure the conservatives on a united front. I’ve been trying to make sense of the mural thing and it wasn’t my instinct that it was antisemitic but then JC said it was and the Jewish chronicle also said it was so I accepted it is. I often fail to see things as racist, when others see something more sinister so it’s not something I often question because I’ve had my fingers burnt before for sharing doubts. Now the same question to you as to @Sharpe's Fox if you don’t think it’s antisemitic, why do you think JC now accepts it is? Im not pushing an agenda but I’m trying to understand why this is a mudslinging contest instead of something more conclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Webbo said: No, don't try and change the subject. Give me more details about Corbyn's non existent antisemitism? It doesn't exist so it's kinda hard to give details. Whereas the homeless figures do exist. NHS waiting times do exist. Record personal debt exists. Falling wages exists. Schools reducing opening hours exist. Councils going under exist. A housing crisis exists. Police having to reduce the breath of crime that is investigated after losing 20,000 officers exists. Do you want to discuss any of these important issues that have a real impact on people's lives? Or do you want to continue with the fake outrage and whataboutery? Edited 24 March 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 10 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: I don’t blame you. It isn’t obvious who the men at the table are unless, like some posters on here, you can immediately pick them out by “the noses” or that “Jews control the world through international finance”. Many sources can be found that indicate antisemite nut jobs believe Rothschilds, one of whom is depicted, are at the centre of international conspiracies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family#Conspiracy_theories however unless you know who the painting depicts it isn’t immediantly obvious the mural is antisemitic unless you’re into that sort of thing. So who are the 6 men pictured? Which one's a Rothschild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, toddybad said: It doesn't exist so it's kinda hard to give details. Whereas the homeless figures do exist. NHS waiting times do exist. Record personal debt exists. Falling wages exists. Schools reducing opening hours exist. Councils going under exist. A housing crisis exists. Police having to reduce the breath of crime that is investigated after losing 20,000 officers exists. Do you want to discuss any of these important issues that have a real impact on people's lives? Or do you want to continue with the fake outrage and whataboutery? Whataboutery It was you who tried to change the subject. You have nothing to say about Corbyn and then you accuse me of ignoring awkward subjects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 7 minutes ago, Strokes said: Now the same question to you as to @Sharpe's Fox if you don’t think it’s antisemitic, why do you think JC now accepts it is? I do mate, you responded to my post on this 20 minutes ago. I’ve only argued it isn’t immediantly obvious unless you’re an antisemite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, Sharpe's Fox said: I do mate, you responded to my post on this 20 minutes ago. I’ve only argued it isn’t immediantly obvious unless you’re an antisemite. Or you've seen the Nazi caricatures of jews in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: So who are the 6 men pictured? Which one's a Rothschild? No idea. I’m going on the tweet by the artist which indicates one of them is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: Or you've seen the Nazi caricatures of jews in the past. Your reading list or picture gallery is of no interest to me, I’m a leftist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 March 2018 Share Posted 24 March 2018 Just now, Sharpe's Fox said: Your reading list or picture gallery is of no interest to me, I’m a leftist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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