Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[leicsmac]

40 minutes ago, MattP said:

Worse.

 

If Trump admitted to something being racist/antisemitic most of his supporters would probably hold their hands up, or maybe even double down

 

I've never seen so many defend and deny something already admitted by the culprit as I have today with regards to this. Baffling.

 

I expect it from some posters but others I'm very, very surprised at.

 

 

Nah, they'd just organise a march saying "Jews will not replace us!"

 

 

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

People spending all day arguing the semantics of a painting, I'm still sat here wondering why anyone gives a fook what jezza thinks. 

 

Can a painting be discussed in terms of semantics? 

Edited 24 March 2018 by Buce

[Strokes]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Can a painting be said to have semantics? 

Don’t be anti-semantics buce.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

The noses mainly around the table, it's like seeing a picture if apes running a 100 metre race. Imagine claiming that wouldn't be racist? 

 

If that doesn't quite clinch it it also into the conspiracy as well the Jews are controlling the money whilst everyone else is underneath - nothing new really. People shouldn't be surprised. 

 

I was a rabid anti-semite in my youth, would have loved a picture like that back in the day - I wasn't 62 though at that time.

I don't see it that way at all. I don't hold the artists's view that there's a conspiratorial collection of old rich guys micromanaging the global economy and world events, so from the off it's a flawed piece, but I also don't think his picture should be labelled as antisemitic purely because it contains caricatures of Jewish men which is ultimately what it seems to come down to. Nor do I think the ape analogy fits, a more fitting one would be a depiction of black people with exaggerated lips or bulbous noses I guess, which would make a lot of art made by black people themselves racist like this image from Black Dynamite:

[Innovindil]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Can a painting be said to have semantics? 

Dunno, maybe? Might be getting the meaning of the word wrong tbf. Hopefully you got the gist of it. 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Dunno, maybe? Might be getting the meaning of the word wrong tbf. Hopefully you got the gist of it. 

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same. 

 

It’s always the same when there’s no football innit. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Life's not perfect, never has been. Bad things sometimes happen and it's nothing to do with the govt. Sometimes the alternative is worse than the original problem.

 

Me being a mod has nothing to do with this. Matt has been banned for far less than some of the stuff that you come out with, you've never had a single word deleted.

It's just sometimes you do just spend all day trolling without really adding any serious thoughts on anything. I'm not really having a massive go.

And yes, I've said some daft stuff at times.

[Guest]

I like Keir Starmer. Talks sense. Think he's got future leader (possibly future PM) written all over him. Though whether the members would have him, who knows.

 

Keir Starmer: ‘We cannot allow Labour to break apart over Brexit’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/24/keir-starmer-we-cannot-allow-labour-to-break-apart-over-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

 

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's just sometimes you do just spend all day trolling without really adding any serious thoughts on anything. I'm not really having a massive go.

And yes, I've said some daft stuff at times.

Most of the time I don't reply in this thread, I virtually never read any Guardian links. It's the same old shit everyday and I can't be bothered usually.

[Guest]

Just now, Webbo said:

Most of the time I don't reply in this thread, I virtually never read any Guardian links. It's the same old shit everyday and I can't be bothered usually.

Must admit I'm getting bored with the circular arguments. I do try to use links from across the media these days.

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I like Keir Starmer. Talks sense. Think he's got future leader (possibly future PM) written all over him. Though whether the members would have him, who knows.

 

Keir Starmer: ‘We cannot allow Labour to break apart over Brexit’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/24/keir-starmer-we-cannot-allow-labour-to-break-apart-over-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

 

It’s going to be an interesting few weeks in the Labour Party that’s for sure, will they fracture or not. I’d rather they carried on as is, as it’s hardly been bad for a proper brexit.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It’s going to be an interesting few weeks in the Labour Party that’s for sure, will they fracture or not. I’d rather they carried on as is, as it’s hardly been bad for a proper brexit.

Let's say we land on soft Brexit at the end - inside a customs union with the ecj having a role in overseeing whether we are making our obligations, no freedom of movement, a relatively decent free trade deal, some access for services though not as much as the government would like, EU access to our fishing waters, some consolidation of free trade deals with countries the EU deals with....

 

You might want a bigger break than that but is that acceptable to most leavers in the end? I think I can half get on board with that myself. It seems to me the only outcome that won't fracture the entire nation.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Let's say we land on soft Brexit at the end - inside a customs union with the ecj having a role in overseeing whether we are making our obligations, no freedom of movement, a relatively decent free trade deal, some access for services though not as much as the government would like, EU access to our fishing waters, some consolidation of free trade deals with countries the EU deals with....

 

You might want a bigger break than that but is that acceptable to most leavers in the end? I think I can half get on board with that myself. It seems to me the only outcome that won't fracture the entire nation.

I’d feel cheated if we couldn’t build our own trade relations and still had such close ties but yeah I’d be reluctantly on board for a while, with the hope we can change things later.

I think internal politics is being forgotten whilst this is dragging on and we have many important decisions to take and focus on that don’t revolve around brexit.

[Guest MattP]

7 hours ago, toddybad said:

I like Keir Starmer. Talks sense. Think he's got future leader (possibly future PM) written all over him. Though whether the members would have him, who knows.

 

Keir Starmer: ‘We cannot allow Labour to break apart over Brexit’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/24/keir-starmer-we-cannot-allow-labour-to-break-apart-over-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

I dont think the Labour membership now will vote for someone like Starmer.

 

Andrew Neil asked Alan Johnston on This Week if the hard left had most control in the party and AJ replied saying they have "total control" - guys like Starmer are Blairites to the people running the show now.

 

Next leader imo will either be McDonnell, Abbott or Rebecca Long-Bailey.

[Guest MattP]

Corbyn could face internal investigation (I'll bet you anyone £100 on here he won't)

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/jeremy-corbyn-is-reported-to-labour-party-chiefs-over-anti-semitic-mural-6mqb8m0pv

 

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sunday march 25 2018

News

 

 

POLITICS

Jeremy Corbyn is reported to Labour Party chiefs over anti‑semitic mural

The leader is accused of bringing Labour into disrepute by defending an artist’s image of Jewish bankers as free speech

Gabriel Pogrund and Caroline Wheeler

March 25 2018, 12:01am, The Sunday Times

 

The east London mural was removed after complaints that it was anti-semiticMICHAEL KEMP

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The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has been reported to his own party for alleged anti-semitism over his defence of a mural depicting Jewish bankers controlling the world.

A complaint submitted to the Labour Party’s ruling body, the national executive committee (NEC), by the Campaign Against Antisemitism, accuses Corbyn of bringing the party into disrepute.

The mural by artist Mear One showed six “hook-nosed men” — apparently Jewish bankers. It was scrubbed off a wall in the East End of London in 2012 after residents complained about its anti-semitic theme.

At the time, Corbyn defended the imagery on the grounds of free speech. The Labour leader has since expressed “sincere regret” about his comments but has refused to apologise explicitly.

The row escalated yesterday when a former Labour minister accused Corbyn of sacking Owen Smith, his Northern Ireland spokesman and a former leadership contender, on Friday to distract attention from the row over the mural. “This is a classic case of throwing a dead cat on the table to make everyone look elsewhere,” the former minister said.

Smith had already threatened to quit over Corbyn’s failure to condemn Russia over the Skripal poisonings, it was reported last night.

Gideon Falter, chairman of the Campaign Against Antisemitism, said: “The Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn is now a racist party and to be silent now is to condone. We call on all Labour MPs to act and support our disciplinary complaint against Jeremy Corbyn.”

His complaint against the Labour leader was signed off by lawyers last night and sent to Jennie Formby, the party’s newly appointed general secretary and a key Corbyn ally. It will be referred to the party’s compliance unit.

Sajid Javid, the communities secretary, said he would ask for a debate in parliament on anti-semitism so that Corbyn could explain his actions.

He sent a tweet to Corbyn: “Enough is enough . . . I challenge you to turn up and personally speak for the opposition. Your opportunity to explain why you defend the world’s oldest hatred.”

Until Corbyn became leader in 2015 he was a member of Palestine Live, a Facebook group where some members promoted Holocaust denial and conspiracies about Jewish involvement in 9/11 and Israeli support for Isis. He was also reportedly a member of History of Palestine, where members openly discussed Jewish control of the media, the “Rothschild Zionist agenda” and “Jewish organ trafficking”.

Corbyn says he was not aware of anti-semitism in these groups, while sources close to him said he was only an acquaintance of the founder of Palestine Live, Elleanne Green.

However, the Campaign Against Antisemitism complaint claims he is “lying about their relationship” and that it stretches credulity to say he had no knowledge of Green’s views. It states that he and Green organised events together and, based on their Facebook communications, were known to share a taste in poetry. He also wished her a “wonderful time” on her holiday to Cuba.

Mear One, the mural’s artist, has previously said he was exposing “Rothschild”-type bankers for the “demons” they were.

Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, described the mural as “blatantly anti-semitic”. “It was indefensible then and indefensible now,” she added.

Last night, Labour sources indicated the complaint about Corbyn did not meet the threshold for investigation.

[urban.spaceman]

 

Tempted to share this on Facebook to see what happens. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

Tempted to share this on Facebook to see what happens. 

Not his best work tbf.

[Guest MattP]

Jeremy Corbyn has done nothing wrong in sacking Owen Smith.

 

The Labour party isn't a party that advocates a second referendum and is committed to implementing the result of the Brexit vote.

 

Collective responsibility is necessary for a party of potential government. 

[urban.spaceman]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Not his best work tbf.

Aye; he usually saves his best work for after terror attacks. Expect one soon.

[Alf Bentley]

13 hours ago, Strokes said:

I didn’t see it as antisemitic and would have accepted it as not if it wasn’t largely accepted as such by others but then I didn’t/don’t see Nigel Farages poster in the EU referendum as racist either, so you might think I’m not a great judge on such issues.

I think where art is concerned particularly, it’s not always got a fixed message to deliver and is open to interpretation. 

I bet the artist can’t believe his luck that this is back in the news.

 

I presume you mean this Farage poster: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaking-point-poster-queue-of-migrants

 

Firstly, I should say that I'm not entirely happy about elements of the mural and suspect that the artist has unpleasant kneejerk attitudes, even if he isn't antisemitic.

The difference I see, though, is that he's depicted some "filthy, exploitative capitalists" (from his perspective), some of whom are Jews and some of whom are not....and the truth is that some leading capitalists are Jews.

 

Farage used a photo of Asian and Arab migrants entering Europe to suggest that Britain needs to leave the EU to avoid being swamped by migrants.

Yet we already have national control over non-EU immigration, whether we Brexit or not. The concern is over the free movement of Eastern Europeans and other EU citizens, isn't it?

If Farage had used an image of thousands of Europeans crossing a border, he'd have been able to argue that it was a non-racist poster opposing free movement.

Instead, he chose to use an image of people looking non-European and alien because he knew this would generate more hostility - despite the fact that we already have total control over such immigration.

[Alf Bentley]

14 hours ago, Webbo said:

Sorry to press the point but you haven't answered my question and that's usually important to you.

 

I thought that I had answered your question. You asked if "all Jews love the Rothchilds", Carl ridiculed your distortion of the artist's words and I backed him up.

 

No, it's definitely not true that "all Jews love the Rothchilds" (which the artist didn't say). For a start, there are a lot of left-wing, anti-Zionist, Anglicised or apolitical Jews who don't.

I don't know whether "some of the older white Jewish folk in [East London]" had a problem with the artist demonising "their beloved Rothschilds" (what the artist DID say). But I assume that some of them did.

 

Btw, don't you find it a bit odd that you're castigating people for blindly supporting Corbyn....yet I've been disputing the idea that the mural was necessarily antisemitic, arguing against Corbyn and you! 

 

Incidentally, thanks to @MattP for posting the clearest image I've yet seen of the mural.

After looking at that, I'd say that the depiction of the bloke on the left is definitely dodgy, the bloke on the right definitely looks Jewish but not in an offensive way. Bloke 2 definitely looks non-Jewish, Blokes 3 & 5 could be Jewish or non-Jewish (one has a hooked nose but fairly Anglo features, the other has Jewish-looking features but an Anglo nose), Bloke 4 could be from anywhere in the Middle East, Mediterranean or South Asia (he looked like Gandhi in less well-defined images). I'd be fascinated to know how anyone could confidently say that 5 out of 6 were meant to be Jewish.....though I suspect the artist is one of those who does at least flirt with antisemitism through his hatred of big capital (his sneering comments about Rothchilds suggests as much).

 

I'll leave it there. Spent too much time on this yesterday and if I go on any more about this, I'll have to give myself another ban, for my sake and other people's. 

 

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I thought that I had answered your question. You asked if "all Jews love the Rothchilds", Carl ridiculed your distortion of the artist's words and I backed him up.

 

No, it's definitely not true that "all Jews love the Rothchilds" (which the artist didn't say). For a start, there are a lot of left-wing, anti-Zionist, Anglicised or apolitical Jews who don't.

I don't know whether "some of the older white Jewish folk in [East London]" had a problem with the artist demonising "their beloved Rothschilds" (what the artist DID say). But I assume that some of them did.

 

Btw, don't you find it a bit odd that you're castigating people for blindly supporting Corbyn....yet I've been disputing the idea that the mural was necessarily antisemitic, arguing against Corbyn and you! 

 

Incidentally, thanks to @MattP for posting the clearest image I've yet seen of the mural.

After looking at that, I'd say that the depiction of the bloke on the left is definitely dodgy, the bloke on the right definitely looks Jewish but not in an offensive way. Bloke 2 definitely looks non-Jewish, Blokes 3 & 5 could be Jewish or non-Jewish (one has a hooked nose but fairly Anglo features, the other has Jewish-looking features but an Anglo nose), Bloke 4 could be from anywhere in the Middle East, Mediterranean or South Asia (he looked like Gandhi in less well-defined images). I'd be fascinated to know how anyone could confidently say that 5 out of 6 were meant to be Jewish.....though I suspect the artist is one of those who does at least flirt with antisemitism through his hatred of big capital (his sneering comments about Rothchilds suggests as much).

 

I'll leave it there. Spent too much time on this yesterday and if I go on any more about this, I'll have to give myself another ban, for my sake and other people's. 

Don't.

 

Just had a pint with my good friend (Labour member, moderate lol) and spoke about all this, he thinks it's anti-semitic but can't get worked up about it anymore.

 

He said it was crazy though that we are talking about all this when we have a big discussion about Brexit we should all be talking about, which is probably more important than anything in politics since he was born. I found it hard to disagree with that. 

[Wymsey]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Don't.

 

Just had a pint with my good friend (Labour member, moderate lol) and spoke about all this, he thinks it's anti-semitic but can't get worked up about it anymore.

 

He said it was crazy though that we are talking about all this when we have a big discussion about Brexit we should all be talking about, which is probably more important than anything in politics since he was born. I found it hard to disagree with that. 

Is his name 'Lynton' (Glenfield) by any chance?..

Had been a staunch UKIP supporter, especially 18 months and so ago, but is apparently having more Labour-type views relatively recently.

Edited 25 March 2018 by Wymeswold fox

[CarbonVirtine]

51 minutes ago, MattP said:

He said it was crazy though that we are talking about all this when we have a big discussion about Brexit we should all be talking about, which is probably more important than anything in politics since he was born.

Oh but we're all capable of multi-tasking on here. Even the blokes!

[CarbonVirtine]

17 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Dunno, maybe? Might be getting the meaning of the word wrong tbf. Hopefully you got the gist of it. 

Gist got.

 

Semiotics perhaps?