Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Wymsey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43534344

Quite fitting really, considering how many perceive as the negotiations as weak etc.

[Guest MattP]

52 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Is his name 'Lynton' (Glenfield) by any chance?..

Had been a staunch UKIP supporter, especially 18 months and so ago, but is apparently having more Labour-type views relatively recently.

 

Lynton is a good friend of mine, he's a good guy but I don't think he'll ever be Labour. He would never vote Tory either, I know a few stories about his time on the council.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

Lynton is a good friend of mine, he's a good guy but I don't think he'll ever be Labour. He would never vote Tory either, I know a few stories about his time on the council.

Did he used to drink in the forge?

Edited 25 March 2018 by Guest

[Wymsey]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Did he used to drink in the forge?

Heard he goes regularly, as he only lives 30 seconds down the road from there (although I believe that his house is up for sale/offer).

Edited 25 March 2018 by Wymeswold fox

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Did he used to drink in the forge?

Yeah a regular. He moved down towards Kirby a few months ago - top man and puts his money where his mouth is. 

 

You a Glenny lad Todd? I'll meet you for a pint if so.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Yeah a regular. He moved down towards Kirby a few months ago - top man and puts his money where his mouth is. 

 

You a Glenny lad Todd? I'll meet you for a pint if so.

I grew up there and knew Lynton a few years back (though im about 30 odd years younger than him!). Don't live there now though mate.

[Guest]

Just got round to QT. The Tory vice chairman is really rather good. They should stick him out front and centre as often as they can as he's way better than the bunch of clueless idiots you usually see from them. 

Edited 25 March 2018 by Guest

[Wymsey]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

 

Lynton is a good friend of mine, he's a good guy but I don't think he'll ever be Labour. He would never vote Tory either, I know a few stories about his time on the council.

 

5 hours ago, toddybad said:

I grew up there and knew Lynton a few years back (though im about 30 odd years younger than him!). Don't live there now though mate.

He quite well-off apparently.

He reminds me of..

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

 

He quite well-off apparently.

He reminds me of..

only white hair and heard and a floppy crocodile Dundee hat when I last saw him probably a decade ago! I suspect our politics might be different but he was a decent bloke from the small amount I used to know him.

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Wymeswold fox said:

 

He quite well-off apparently.

He reminds me of..

Careful now, posting your images of blokes with large, hooked noses.

[Carl the Llama]

Relatively relevant and concerning a horrific act of legal over-reach:

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

Anti-semitic, semantics and semiotics!

 

All on the same page as well... quality. 

 

I note that Jezza has expressed regrets over the mural, and also apologized for the pockets of anti-semitism in the party. The decades of support for Palestine liberation on the left has not all been positive, imho, because the line between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitsm is a fine one.

 

Hopefully all this attention has made that line clearer for Labour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

26 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Careful now, posting your images of blokes with large, hooked noses.

 

25 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Relatively relevant and concerning a horrific act of legal over-reach:

 

 

Couple of things about that. Passionate and well argued, but...

 

Springtime for Hitler is, of course, from the rather marvellous film, The Producers, directed by Mel Brooks. Now Mel Brooks is very jewish, and I'm not sure that his film would have been acceptable from a non-Jewish source, in the early 70's at least. So the John Cleese bit, Allo Allo and others are probably better references for him to use because, as he says, context is important.

 

Perhaps a more important point is that the reference to nazi germany struck me as a bit odd, because this Scottish comedian fella (does he actually do funny?) would probably have got into trouble in modern day germany as well, because they still have laws on holocaust denial and stuff about nazis. I wonder if the shouty fella was aware of that, perhaps not.

 

Edited 26 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Guest MattP]

Chukka Umanna has signalled his support for this statement and asked fellow MP's to do the same, it's pretty strong stuff. Will be presented at the Labour PLP meeting tonight. 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/corbyn-dodges-apology-for-antisemitic-mural-again-3zf5nrq8s

 

 

[Guest MattP]

Here is the full.statement, there is a protest in parliament square today.

 

[Webbo]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Here is the full.statement, there is a protest in parliament square today.

 

I'm sure are some on here who will laugh that off.

[Buce]

I'm sure there are some on here that will laugh this off:

Pressure grows on PM over Brexit Cambridge Analytica scandal

Campaigners demand Theresa May investigates what Michael Gove and Boris Johnson knew

 

The Cambridge Analytica scandal engulfing the official Brexit campaign reached No 10 on Sunday, as campaigners wrote to Theresa May demanding an investigation into what members of her cabinet and her own staff knew.

The letter from the anti-Brexit group Best for Britain came after a whistleblower told the Observer that Vote Leave channelled money through another campaign to a firm linked to the controversial data company Cambridge Analytica in a potential breach of electoral law.

The allegations immediately put pressure on the foreign and environment secretaries, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, who were leading members of Vote Leave.

 

May came under pressure herself over the weekend after Downing Street was accused of outing the whistleblower, Shahmir Sanni, as gay in an official statement released on Friday. It was put out in response to allegations Sanni made about the involvement of one of May’s aides, Stephen Parkinson – a former senior Vote Leave official – in wrongdoing at the campaign group.

Sanni said his family in Pakistan, where homosexuality is criminalised, are now in potential danger.

Sanni had told the Observer a £625,000 bogus donation from Vote Leave to an ostensibly independent campaign group called BeLeave was channelled to the digital services firm, AggregateIQ (AIQ), which has links to Cambridge Analytica.

In its letter, Best for Britain demanded to know:

• What did Michael Gove and Boris Johnson know about the coordination of the Leave campaign and AIQ? Is the prime minister planning to investigate what they knew about the claims?
• Will the pair be recused from the Brexit “war cabinet” while these claims are being investigated?
• Does the prime minister plan to investigate the staff mentioned in the reports who work for No 10?
• Did No 10 directly out Sanni, or have any involvement in his outing?
• Were government emails, phones or equipment used?

The letter came after the latest in a string of revelations emerged about the work of the leave campaigns and the data firm Cambridge Analytica.

The £625,000 donation was, Sanni alleged, in breach of electoral rules because Vote Leave shared offices with BeLeave and exerted a measure of control over the smaller organisation. The rules require campaign groups that coordinate with each other to have a shared spending limit. Vote Leave has denied any such coordination.

Sanni also alleged that, after the Electoral Commission opened an investigation, senior Vote Leave figures began deleting traces of their presence in files shared by the two groups. The official Brexit campaign’s director, Dominic Cummings, described that claim as “factually wrong and libellous”. Vote Leave said staff acted “ethically, responsibly and legally in deleting any data”.

In a separate interview with Channel 4 News, Sanni said: “I know that Vote Leave cheated ... I know that people have been lied to and that the referendum wasn’t legitimate.”

He added: “In effect, they used BeLeave to overspend, and not just by a small amount ... Almost two-thirds of a million pounds makes all the difference, and it wasn’t legal.”

 

The claims were quickly dismissed by senior Vote Leave figures.

 

On Saturday evening, within hours of the news breaking, Johnson labelled the allegations “utterly ludicrous”, saying Vote Leave won the 2016 referendum “fair and square – and legally”.

The environment secretary, who served as the campaign’s co-chair, chose not to address the claims of maladministration, but to recast them as an attack on the electorate’s decision.

“I respect the motives and understand the feelings of those who voted to remain in the EU. But 17.4 million opted to leave in a free and fair vote and the result must be respected. It’s our job now to work to overcome division,” Gove said.

Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the Commons and a prominent Vote Leave campaigner, was more circumspect than the foreign secretary, telling Sky News: “It is, obviously, a matter for the Electoral Commission. It’s very important that they do look at these issues. I know that there have been a number of investigations already where there haven’t been findings of wrongdoing.”

Asked if she felt the legitimacy of the referendum result would be in doubt if the allegations were proven true, she said: “I think we need to wait for the Electoral Commission to have its investigation.”

The claims were also dismissed by Parkinson, in a personal statement released by No 10. In it, he called Sanni’s allegations “factually incorrect and misleading”.

Downing Street refused to say on Sunday whether May continued to have full confidence in Parkinson. A No 10 source said the question would have to wait until Monday.

Parkinson is one of a number of key figures likely to be considered by the commission’s investigation who now hold senior posts in May’s government. He could also face pressure to step aside voluntarily while the investigation is carried out.

On Sunday, Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, told BBC One’s The Andrew Marr Show: “Theresa May needs to make sure the Electoral Commission has the resources to fully investigate the allegations made that there was criminal collusion.

“Because, let’s remember, the people that led these campaigns are now senior cabinet members, and I think we need to make sure that they were not aware of what was going on, and that’s why I think the resources are needed, and if needs be, the police should be resourced to investigate as well.”

An Electoral Commission spokeswoman said: “The commission has a number of investigations open in relation to campaigners at the EU referendum; it does not comment on live investigations.”

Edited 26 March 2018 by Buce

[Guest MattP]

24 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I'm sure are some on here who will laugh that off.

If Corbyn was caught making a Nazi salute outside a synagogue, some would tell us he's waving to the Rabbi.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

That picture is pretty horrific. It should have been painted over immediately with whitewash as it is disgusting.

 

Interesting that the left want to destroy all statues from our past as they are 'imperialist' yet they are happy to let horrible small minded shit like this go because 'its freedom of an artists expression. Double standards again. 

Edited 26 March 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Guest Foxin_mad]

21 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

 

Farage used a photo of Asian and Arab migrants entering Europe to suggest that Britain needs to leave the EU to avoid being swamped by migrants.

Yet we already have national control over non-EU immigration, whether we Brexit or not. The concern is over the free movement of Eastern Europeans and other EU citizens, isn't it?

If Farage had used an image of thousands of Europeans crossing a border, he'd have been able to argue that it was a non-racist poster opposing free movement.

Instead, he chose to use an image of people looking non-European and alien because he knew this would generate more hostility - despite the fact that we already have total control over such immigration.

Playing devils advocate here. This was during the time where the EU shot itself in the foot by Merkel deciding to allow uncontrolled immigration into the EU from the east during the refugee situation which was incredibly badly handled. At the time the poster was relevant and not at all racist but of course people see what they want to see. 

 

Again at the time Cameron had it spot on. Instead of open borders we should have been working at the camps not encouraging them to take a perilous journey across the Med. 

[Buce]

16 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

That picture is pretty horrific. It should have been painted over immediately with whitewash as it is disgusting.

 

Interesting that the left want to destroy all statues from our past as they are 'imperialist' yet they are happy to let horrible small minded shit like this go because 'its freedom of an artists expression. Double standards again. 

1

 

10 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Playing devils advocate here. This was during the time where the EU shot itself in the foot by Merkel deciding to allow uncontrolled immigration into the EU from the east during the refugee situation which was incredibly badly handled. At the time the poster was relevant and not at all racist but of course people see what they want to see. 

 

Again at the time Cameron had it spot on. Instead of open borders we should have been working at the camps not encouraging them to take a perilous journey across the Med. 

2

 

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Playing devils advocate here. This was during the time where the EU shot itself in the foot by Merkel deciding to allow uncontrolled immigration into the EU from the east during the refugee situation which was incredibly badly handled. At the time the poster was relevant and not at all racist but of course people see what they want to see. 

 

Again at the time Cameron had it spot on. Instead of open borders we should have been working at the camps not encouraging them to take a perilous journey across the Med. 

 

In what way did the EU shoot itself in the foot, when decisions on non-EU migration are taken by national governments?

 

It can certainly be argued that Merkel shot herself in the foot through inadequate controls on migration. Likewise, there are valid arguments to say that the UK should have taken more migrants - within reason and subject to adequate controls to prevent systemic abuse by potential terrorists or economic migrants jumping the queue.

 

The EU could be criticised for failing to agree an adequate joint response to the migrant crisis, before it eventually agreed a deal for Turkey to take many migrants. But decisions as to whether migrants were allowed access were taken by national govts. Don't you remember? The Greeks set up migrant camps. The Croats, (non-EU) Serbs and others had borders open and closed at different times. The Hungarians put up barbed-wire fences. The Germans allowed large numbers into Germany. The UK allowed a tiny number into the UK...

 

Farage wanted to win pro-Brexit votes by harnessing opposition to the free movement of EU migrants - valid politics, even if I don't agree with it.

But he chose to oppose the free movement of Europeans by depicting a border being flooded by vast numbers of non-EU Syrians, Afghans, Pakistanis etc.....over whose immigration we had complete control already.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

 

I would prefer neither of them existed but you can not condemn one and not the other. As I was saying I was playing devils advocate.

 

My position is both of them are incorrect. Obviously different people react in different ways to these things. 

 

The poster used by the Leave Campaign was at the time a fairly accurate representation of the borders in Hungary due to a situation created by Merkel. Personally I thought the poster was distasteful but not racist. 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

In what way did the EU shoot itself in the foot, when decisions on non-EU migration are taken by national governments?

 

It can certainly be argued that Merkel shot herself in the foot through inadequate controls on migration. Likewise, there are valid arguments to say that the UK should have taken more migrants - within reason and subject to adequate controls to prevent systemic abuse by potential terrorists or economic migrants jumping the queue.

 

The EU could be criticised for failing to agree an adequate joint response to the migrant crisis, before it eventually agreed a deal for Turkey to take many migrants. But decisions as to whether migrants were allowed access were taken by national govts. Don't you remember? The Greeks set up migrant camps. The Croats, (non-EU) Serbs and others had borders open and closed at different times. The Hungarians put up barbed-wire fences. The Germans allowed large numbers into Germany. The UK allowed a tiny number into the UK...

 

Farage wanted to win pro-Brexit votes by harnessing opposition to the free movement of EU migrants - valid politics, even if I don't agree with it.

But he chose to oppose the free movement of Europeans by depicting a border being flooded by vast numbers of non-EU Syrians, Afghans, Pakistanis etc.....over whose immigration we had complete control already.

Personally I think if we had border control across Europe, this wouldn’t have been such an issue and so dramatic. I think that’s what was being highlighted and why it’s not racist. 

It was a true picture of what was happening on Europe’s mainland and should rightly question what the EU are doing to protect its members.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

In what way did the EU shoot itself in the foot, when decisions on non-EU migration are taken by national governments?

 

It can certainly be argued that Merkel shot herself in the foot through inadequate controls on migration. Likewise, there are valid arguments to say that the UK should have taken more migrants - within reason and subject to adequate controls to prevent systemic abuse by potential terrorists or economic migrants jumping the queue.

 

The EU could be criticised for failing to agree an adequate joint response to the migrant crisis, before it eventually agreed a deal for Turkey to take many migrants. But decisions as to whether migrants were allowed access were taken by national govts. Don't you remember? The Greeks set up migrant camps. The Croats, (non-EU) Serbs and others had borders open and closed at different times. The Hungarians put up barbed-wire fences. The Germans allowed large numbers into Germany. The UK allowed a tiny number into the UK...

 

Farage wanted to win pro-Brexit votes by harnessing opposition to the free movement of EU migrants - valid politics, even if I don't agree with it.

But he chose to oppose the free movement of Europeans by depicting a border being flooded by vast numbers of non-EU Syrians, Afghans, Pakistanis etc.....over whose immigration we had complete control already.

Are they not given EU citizenship by  the first country they arrive in? or at least they should be. The problem here is they can come into Hungary/Greece get processed and travel freely within the EU wherever they like.

 

Giving the idea that all you need to do is turn up at one of our frontiers and we will let you in is in my view incorrect, and encouraged a bigger stream of migrants than was necessary. 

 

Once processed should they choose they could have come to Britain, even after arriving in Germany. Quite why so many people want to come here when apparently it is a shit Tory scum hole I will never know. 

Edited 26 March 2018 by Foxin_mad