Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Vardinio'sCat]

15 hours ago, Strokes said:

You do realise by pointing out other people inconsistencies you’re also highlighting your own right? I mean you’re very sensitive towards stereotyping that causes offence but seem quite forgiving on this subject, which kind of makes a mockery of your upset on the Irish jokes?

Fwiw, I’m pleased the mural got whitewashed. I don’t think art should be destroyed for being offensive but people should be able to choose whether they see such material and this art was fixed in a public place and too controversial to be able to remain. I don’t see it as antisemitic but understand why others do.

I’d have no problem if this story moved on to the back burner but it’s hard to ignore the protests outside Parliament and the internal rage building inside. The Labour Party will do pretty well to keep its reputation in tact after this imo.

 

 

I'm happy to see Corbyn taking a firmer approach to anti-semitism, because it is easy for pro-palestinian sentiment, and criticism of Israel, to turn into something darker. This is clearly a problem for some in the Labour Party, but I don't regard it as a seriously widespread issue. I also don't regard myself as forgiving of anti-semitism, but as I don't regard Corbyn as such, I see it as a problem with some basis in fact, but also a problem of perception and no small amount of spin. I think he should have taken a firmer hand earlier (the Livingstone issue comes to mind, but there have also been other issues), and in reference to the mural, should have been more careful of what groups he joined. I'm not on Facebook, so my understanding of how valid his defence on that is may be weak.

 

I thought I made clear that my pushing back against some of the fury strayed into partisan territory in my post (in the same way some of the criticism of Corbyn on here seemed partisan to me), which is why I offered some apologies in the post, but I appreciate that my joke at the end about returning to the Irish question was probably over-egging the point I had already made.

 

I regard that mural as clearly straying into very dodgy territory myself, because of 'The protocols' conspiracy theory (although that is probably because I know the history better than most, Goebbels favourite speech etc, etc), so I guess we differ on that.

 

On both the Irish and jewish issues I have family history (I won't bore you with the details), so I am probably more confident in mixing up discussion and humour to an extent that might come across as a bit strange. But when I see some of the piling on from the right (and I'm not just talking about posters on here, but more generally in the media), it kind of sticks in the craw.

 

Imho, it is important to treat all forms of racism with an even hand, and the Labour Party has traditionally been the strongest party on this. It is disappointing to see so many jewish groups unhappy at what has gone on, and getting it sorted is important, but the right has a a somewhat dubious record, so I object to the endless lectures. Perhaps I should have just attacked back, rather than attempted to lighten it with some humour, because at least my point would be clearer.

 

Many, many people in the Labour Party have marched and organised on anti-racism issues for their whole lives. I think this is a blemish on that record, rather than the kind of existential issue that you imply.

 

Sometimes I post, then when i re-read it next day, I think it was a bit rubbish, I guess it comes with the territory. Sad thing is, I'm almost never pissed, so I don't have that much excuse. 

 

 

 

Edited 27 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Vardinio'sCat]

14 hours ago, Webbo said:

A) Why shouldn't right wingers be against racism?

B) Why is it opportunism to criticise Labour but not to criticise the Conservatives?

 

After being pulled up on my post already by Strokes, can I refer you to my more nuanced follow up to him if you want a clearer explanation of my take on the whole thing. But specifically...

 

A) Despite my perhaps confusingly jocular/trolling tone, I was heartened to see folks on the right showing some understanding of identity politics, although I was a bit surprised how heated this got. I am a bit annoyed about the extent of the pile on in the right wing media, but clearly Corbyn needs to show a bit of backbone. which arguably he finally started to do.

 

B) That short paragraph was me being a bit cynical and partisan, which is why I said that at the start of my next bit, and offered a pre-emptive apology.

 

 

Edited 27 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Vardinio'sCat]

14 hours ago, MattP said:

Excuse me? I haven't said he wasn't a principled backbencher at all. I said he had compromised his principles since taking the leadership, which he clearly has as he's now voting against things he used to support as a backbencher.

 

Ok, sorry, I probably mixed up various posts from a range of people, or just skim read, which is absolutely fatal on here. 

 

Funnily enough, whilst I love the principled bit in theory, I worry about his ability to ditch some of those principles when it is best for his party, or even for his country. Obviously we are coming from different sides, but it is funny how different our narratives are.

 

I can't remember the source, but the one about  You 'campaign in poetry, you govern in prose' comes to mind, as does the quote often attributed to Maynard Keynes, 'When the facts change, my opinions change, what do yours do?'

Edited 27 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

 Mate, you're far more informed on this than me and I'm a bit Que Sera Sera about it all.

 

The thing that bugs me a little bit about Brexit is how the government seem to get all the blame for trying to 'implement' something that the people voted for. Trust me when I say that Corbyn and Labour would also have made mistakes if they were in charge of it and I'd have exactly the same sympathy for them.

 

I genuinely believe that May, Davis and the rest of them are trying their best to do what the people have asked them to do. From afar, it looks like an almost impossible job to me and they'll never please all the people all of the time. 

 

I've no idea what the 'right' answer is and frankly I'm not that bothered. We vote for our politicians to do the right thing on our behalf and that's what they're paid to do. But they're also only human like you and I so they're bound to fvck it up from time to time. 

 

When it's all done and dusted, whatever the outcome, and whatever it looks like, we've all just got to get on with it. The rules of the game will no doubt change and then we've all got to do the best we can with the new cards we're dealt.

 

As I've said before, this is all a bit unprecedented and there's no previous rule book or guidelines for a Brexit so everyone's just making it up as they go along. For this reason alone I'm prepared to accept mistakes and misjudgments will happen and hope they 'learn by doing'. Either way, we're generally made of pretty strong stuff in this country so I've got every faith we'll be O.K. in the long run  

 

I'm sorry Iz but much as I like you I doubt you'd be making this same post to Matt or Webster in the reverse scenario.

 

3 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Hear hear Izzy. It's easy to forget the impossible situation they were put in and they were put in that situation because the people that created the problem soon ran off to earn obscene amounts of money, buy a fancy shed, and stick the knife in from behind a newspaper. 

You definitely wouldn't have the same attitude in the reverse scenario.  "I can't believe Corbyn's fvcked this up too, [insert something about anti-semitism or Venezuela]".

[Carl the Llama]

The worst thing about this thread is I don't even trust Corbyn enough to ever vote for him, I'd much rather spoil a ballot with my best dickbutt, and yet I consistently come across as his bff because I actually try to be fair with my views.

[Vardinio'sCat]

20 hours ago, Strokes said:

You do realise by pointing out other people inconsistencies you’re also highlighting your own right? I mean you’re very sensitive towards stereotyping that causes offence but seem quite forgiving on this subject, which kind of makes a mockery of your upset on the Irish jokes?

Fwiw, I’m pleased the mural got whitewashed. I don’t think art should be destroyed for being offensive but people should be able to choose whether they see such material and this art was fixed in a public place and too controversial to be able to remain. I don’t see it as antisemitic but understand why others do.

I’d have no problem if this story moved on to the back burner but it’s hard to ignore the protests outside Parliament and the internal rage building inside. The Labour Party will do pretty well to keep its reputation in tact after this imo.

 

One other thing... 

 

I guess I regard being nasty about jews as being beyond the pale, partly because everyone knows where that can end. In my experience, in the UK, there is very little tolerance of anti-semitism amongst decent people (cue jokes about the Labour Party), although I hear alot of criticism of Israel. I think people (in general) know the difference, although I might just be saying that because I have a big nose, and everyone knows to keep quiet! 

 

With the Irish, it is just the low level snarkyness of that particular type of joke (ie thick paddy), set against the historical power relationship, that annoys me. If people repeatedly made those kind of jokes about other, more conspicuously marginalised groups, there would rightly be push back. Now whilst a small number of their countrymen were bombing and killing, I feel the Irish in the UK (quite sensibly) kept quiet about it, but that time is long gone (I hope), and we could do with a change.

 

To emphasise that I am not making up the offence taken,  I refer you to the 1997 Commission for Racial Equality report on anti-Irish discrimination in the UK, which found that 79% of the irish people interviewed reported having been subjected to abusive and insulting anti-Irish jokes and remarks. I'm sure things have improved significantly since then but still, for Irish people in the UK, it does go on.

 

Anyway, as you can tell I have Irish blood, cos I do go on a bit.  Hope that has explained my different responses to the two issues.

Edited 28 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Webbo]

7 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

The worst thing about this thread is I don't even trust Corbyn enough to ever vote for him, I'd much rather spoil a ballot with my best dickbutt, and yet I consistently come across as his bff because I actually try to be fair with my views.

You ridiculed the idea that that mural was antisemitic when it quite clearly was, when it had been accepted that it was by Corbyn himself.

 

Lots of Jewish people are unhappy with Corbyn s response, many of them members of the labour party, many labour MPs are unhappy too and yet you try to pretend its just people like me calling Corbyn opportunistically.

[Carl the Llama]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You ridiculed the idea that that mural was antisemitic when it quite clearly was, when it had been accepted that it was by Corbyn himself.

 

Lots of Jewish people are unhappy with Corbyn s response, many of them members of the labour party, many labour MPs are unhappy too and yet you try to pretend its just people like me calling Corbyn opportunistically.

Good morning Webbo.  Have yourself a coffee, you sound half asleep and you're not making sense.  I mean you don't seriously think that when I use the term "political opportunists" I'm talking about random men on the internet instead of the people who actually make a living out of politics cynically seizing on an event for their own personal gain do you?

[Webbo]

12 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Good morning Webbo.  Have yourself a coffee, you sound half asleep and you're not making sense.  I mean you don't seriously think that when I use the term "political opportunists" I'm talking about random men on the internet instead of the people who actually make a living out of politics cynically seizing on an event for their own personal gain do you?

I'm not seeing an attempt to be fair with your comment. Are you still claiming the mural wasn't racist?

[Buce]

8 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

 

I'm happy to see Corbyn taking a firmer approach to anti-semitism, because it is easy for pro-palestinian sentiment, and criticism of Israel, to turn into something darker. This is clearly a problem for some in the Labour Party, but I don't regard it as a seriously widespread issue. I also don't regard myself as forgiving of anti-semitism, but as I don't regard Corbyn as such, I see it as a problem with some basis in fact, but also a problem of perception and no small amount of spin. I think he should have taken a firmer hand earlier (the Livingstone issue comes to mind, but there have also been other issues), and in reference to the mural, should have been more careful of what groups he joined. I'm not on Facebook, so my understanding of how valid his defence on that is may be weak.

 

I thought I made clear that my pushing back against some of the fury strayed into partisan territory in my post (in the same way some of the criticism of Corbyn on here seemed partisan to me), which is why I offered some apologies in the post, but I appreciate that my joke at the end about returning to the Irish question was probably over-egging the point I had already made.

 

I regard that mural as clearly straying into very dodgy territory myself, because of 'The protocols' conspiracy theory (although that is probably because I know the history better than most, Goebbels favourite speech etc, etc), so I guess we differ on that.

 

On both the Irish and jewish issues I have family history (I won't bore you with the details), so I am probably more confident in mixing up discussion and humour to an extent that might come across as a bit strange. But when I see some of the piling on from the right (and I'm not just talking about posters on here, but more generally in the media), it kind of sticks in the craw.

 

Imho, it is important to treat all forms of racism with an even hand, and the Labour Party has traditionally been the strongest party on this. It is disappointing to see so many jewish groups unhappy at what has gone on, and getting it sorted is important, but the right has a a somewhat dubious record, so I object to the endless lectures. Perhaps I should have just attacked back, rather than attempted to lighten it with some humour, because at least my point would be clearer.

 

Many, many people in the Labour Party have marched and organised on anti-racism issues for their whole lives. I think this is a blemish on that record, rather than the kind of existential issue that you imply.

 

Sometimes I post, then when i re-read it next day, I think it was a bit rubbish, I guess it comes with the territory. Sad thing is, I'm almost never pissed, so I don't have that much excuse. 

 

 

 

10

 

If it makes you feel better, mate, I'm exactly the same. In an ideal world, I think we'd all benefit from there being a 24 hr delay when one presses the 'submit reply' button.

Edited 28 March 2018 by Buce

[Carl the Llama]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I'm not seeing an attempt to be fair with your comment. Are you still claiming the mural wasn't racist?

The thing is that as far as I can make out the bit of the mural being defined as "racist" is the inclusion of a couple of caricatures of Jewish people and to me that falls more under "ill advised" than "obviously racist".  If all the Monopoly players were hook-nosed, payot-sporting, yamaka laden men rubbing their hands while grinning maniacally then there'd be no debate about it being a racist depiction of a Jewish conspiracy to run the world, but that's not what the guy drew and I'm not going to defend knee-jerk yelling of "that's racist" until somebody shows me exactly why it's the case but nobody's done better than pointing out that a couple of the noses are disproportionately large while ignoring the inclusion of non-Jewish men.

 

In short I simply struggle to see the picture as encouraging hatred of all Jews instead of the handful of men who happen to be Jewish who are perceived by the artist to be conspirators in a shadow government.  Call it naivety if you like but if you want to push the claim that my interpretation is wrong then the burden of proof rests on your shoulders and "Corbyn said it" is not definitive evidence.

[Webbo]

18 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

The thing is that as far as I can make out the bit of the mural being defined as "racist" is the inclusion of a couple of caricatures of Jewish people and to me that falls more under "ill advised" than "obviously racist".  If all the Monopoly players were hook-nosed, payot-sporting, yamaka laden men rubbing their hands while grinning maniacally then there'd be no debate about it being a racist depiction of a Jewish conspiracy to run the world, but that's not what the guy drew and I'm not going to defend knee-jerk yelling of "that's racist" until somebody shows me exactly why it's the case but nobody's done better than pointing out that a couple of the noses are disproportionately large while ignoring the inclusion of non-Jewish men.

 

In short I simply struggle to see the picture as encouraging hatred of all Jews instead of the handful of men who happen to be Jewish who are perceived by the artist to be conspirators in a shadow government.  Call it naivety if you like but if you want to push the claim that my interpretation is wrong then the burden of proof rests on your shoulders and "Corbyn said it" is not definitive evidence.

What about the Jewish groups saying it is?

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Webbo said:

What about the Jewish groups saying it is?

What about it?  If they find the image offensive that's fair enough but it doesn't prove racist intent by the artist.  Given all the times you've taken personal offence at me pointing out that people who aren't you are racist I'd expect you to be more sympathetic of this Mear guy.

[Izzy]

9 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'm sorry Iz but much as I like you I doubt you'd be making this same post to Matt or Webster in the reverse scenario.

 

I like you too Carl 

 

Although I’m a dirty scumbag Tory, I actually voted Remain. I still believe a referendum was the wrong way of going about it and I have an issue with any government being responsible for implementing something they may not personally support or believe in.

 

Even if Corbyn and Labour were responsible for implementing Brexit, I’d still support them on getting it right because it’s in the best interests of the country.

 

But what’s done is done and we have to see it all as an opportunity now rather than a problem.

Edited 28 March 2018 by Izzy Muzzett

[Guest Kopfkino]

8 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

 

You definitely wouldn't have the same attitude in the reverse scenario.  "I can't believe Corbyn's fvcked this up too, [insert something about anti-semitism or Venezuela]".

 

weirdly presumptuous and weird examples to use tbh.

[Carl the Llama]

17 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I like you too Carl 

 

Although I’m a dirty scumbag Tory, I actually voted Remain. I still believe a referendum was the wrong way of going about it and I have an issue with any government being responsible for implementing something they may not personally support or believe in.

 

Even if Corbyn and Labour were responsible for implementing Brexit, I’d still support them on it because it’s in the best interests of the country.

 

But what’s done is done and we have to see it all as an opportunity now rather than a problem.

Fair enough it's not a simple scenario so maybe it would be beneficial to step back and give them some room to breath, but those criticising the government's approach do so for the same reason that they believe it's in everyone's best interests to do so.  I don't think anybody wants to see us cock it all up.

 

13 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

weirdly presumptuous and weird examples to use tbh.

Possibly, I feel pretty sure you were one of the ones banging the Venezuela drum under your old username but I can only apologise if that's incorrect.

[Guest]

A reason to be glad of the EU.

Who will protect us from the British government in future?

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/28/britain-faces-eu-lawsuit-huge-fines-illegal-air-pollution/

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

What about it?  If they find the image offensive that's fair enough but it doesn't prove racist intent by the artist.  Given all the times you've taken personal offence at me pointing out that people who aren't you are racist I'd expect you to be more sympathetic of this Mear guy.

I take offence at the suggestion that Corbyns done nothing wrong, this is just a smear and I'm only pretending to be offended to have a go at Corbyn.

 

There have been conspiracy nuts on here before blaming everything on the Jews/ Rothschilds and I've always argued with them.

[Guest Kopfkino]

36 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

 

 

Possibly, I feel pretty sure you were one of the ones banging the Venezuela drum under your old username but I can only apologise if that's incorrect.

 

Nah I'm pretty confident that all I've ever said on Venezuela is that it's a stupid comparison, the same as Scandinavia.

[Vardinio'sCat]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

 

If it makes you feel better, mate, I'm exactly the same. In an ideal world, I think we'd all benefit from there being a 24 hr delay when one presses the 'submit reply' button.

 

Oh, I don't feel bad about it at all, I just sometimes write them a bit quickly and therefore they can lack the clarity they usually do, and if people don't know I have skin in the game on both questions of Irishness and Jewishness (and therefore a fairly unique perspective), that post did read a bit odd, looking back at it.

 

If I didn't waffle on so much it wouldn't be necessary once in a while. 

Edited 28 March 2018 by Vardinio'sCat

[Vardinio'sCat]

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

I'm not seeing an attempt to be fair with your comment. Are you still claiming the mural wasn't racist?

 

Not everyone has such a keen eye for anti-semtitic content as you and I (and one or two others on here) do, many decent people haven't heard of 'The protocols' etc.

 

I always tend to assume it is an issue (anti-racism) more natural to the left, because you very rarely see 'PC gone mad' BS and the rejection of identity politics as a whole, that you get from some on the right, and also the history of the issue  in UK politics.

 

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

I take offence at the suggestion that Corbyns done nothing wrong, this is just a smear and I'm only pretending to be offended to have a go at Corbyn.

 

There have been conspiracy nuts on here before blaming everything on the Jews/ Rothschilds and I've always argued with them.

I think herein lies the problem:  I can differentiate between a few people belonging to a certain racial heritage and the entire population of that race.

 

1 minute ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Not everyone has such a keen eye for anti-semtitic content as you and I (and one or two others on here) do, many decent people haven't heard of 'The protocols' etc.

 

I always tend to assume it is an issue (anti-racism) more natural to the left, because you very rarely see 'PC gone mad' BS and the rejection of identity politics as a whole, that you get from some on the right, and also the history of the issue  in UK politics.

 

Not having that I'm sorry, if the piece was about the Elders of Zion then surely all the men at the board would be Jewish caricatures, this is a point I've made numerous times now and until somebody addresses it adequately instead of making obnoxious passive aggressive remarks which avoid properly explaining the thing that is apparently so obvious then I'm going to continue to believe my interpretation which I've made perfectly clear by now.

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Not everyone has such a keen eye for anti-semtitic content as you and I (and one or two others on here) do, many decent people haven't heard of 'The protocols' etc.

 

I always tend to assume it is an issue (anti-racism) more natural to the left, because you very rarely see 'PC gone mad' BS and the rejection of identity politics as a whole, that you get from some on the right, and also the history of the issue  in UK politics.

 

I've no interest in identity politics. We're all individuals, nobody should be judged on their ethnicity/religion either positively or negatively. Obviously racism still exists and we should all speak out against that.

[Vardinio'sCat]

4 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

The thing is that as far as I can make out the bit of the mural being defined as "racist" is the inclusion of a couple of caricatures of Jewish people and to me that falls more under "ill advised" than "obviously racist".  If all the Monopoly players were hook-nosed, payot-sporting, yamaka laden men rubbing their hands while grinning maniacally then there'd be no debate about it being a racist depiction of a Jewish conspiracy to run the world, but that's not what the guy drew and I'm not going to defend knee-jerk yelling of "that's racist" until somebody shows me exactly why it's the case but nobody's done better than pointing out that a couple of the noses are disproportionately large while ignoring the inclusion of non-Jewish men.

 

In short I simply struggle to see the picture as encouraging hatred of all Jews instead of the handful of men who happen to be Jewish who are perceived by the artist to be conspirators in a shadow government.  Call it naivety if you like but if you want to push the claim that my interpretation is wrong then the burden of proof rests on your shoulders and "Corbyn said it" is not definitive evidence.

 

For me, at best it is what is often called dog whistle racism, so those who are steeped in anti-semitism, or those have a sensitivity to it, can read the signs. Strokes also said he didn't see it as that bad (I'm paraphrasing) in itself, so I don't think you are far from alone as not seeing it in the same way as, for example, I do.

 

I genuinely believe that Corbyn didn't look that closely at it, and when he did he realised what it referred to, and how it plays into the old slurs. His mum was at Cable Street, so I think he is someone who is actually well aware of the history of anti-semitism.

[breadandcheese]

54 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I think herein lies the problem:  I can differentiate between a few people belonging to a certain racial heritage and the entire population of that race.

 

Not having that I'm sorry, if the piece was about the Elders of Zion then surely all the men at the board would be Jewish caricatures, this is a point I've made numerous times now and until somebody addresses it adequately instead of making obnoxious passive aggressive remarks which avoid properly explaining the thing that is apparently so obvious then I'm going to continue to believe my interpretation which I've made perfectly clear by now.

 I countered your point a long time ago, multiple times.  Honestly, you are wrong.  A quote from wikipedia below:

 

The Judeo-Masonic conspiracy theory merges two older strains of conspiracy claims: Anti-Masonic conspiracy claims and Anti-Semitic conspiracy claims. It was heavily influenced by publication of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,^[3] a forged document that appeared in the Russian Empire purporting to be an expose of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. The Protocols claim that the Jews had infiltrated Freemasonry and were using the fraternity to further their aims. Adherents of the Judeo-Masonic conspiracy took the claim made by the Protocols to extremes and claimed that the leaders of Freemasonry and the leaders of the Jewish plot were one and the same.

An example was the Spanish priest Juan Tusquets Terrats, whose Orígenes de la revolución española and other works built on the Protocols, which he translated, to claim that Jews used freemasons and communists to undermine Christian and Spanish civilisation, providing a justification for the Franco regime, which expanded the threat to an International Judeo-Masonic-Communist conspiracy.

 

So no, not all men around the board have to be Jewish caricatures to invoke an antisemitic image.  The image used represents a judeo-masonic conpiracy theory which unfortunately is wedded in the hard left's anti-capitalist thinking.  As the hard left has always been a minor unimportant fringe, it's never been properly put to scrutiny, so these hideous ideas have been allowed to go about unchecked.  It's only now with Corbyn's rise to leader that these have come under proper scrutiny and identified openly.