Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

 

Regarding the Palestinians that were shot...sucks to be them!

 

Being honest, I find it very difficult to be objective on the Israel question. As a young man, I spent a couple of years there, on and off, as a kibbutz volunteer, and I met a few Holocaust survivors. It's hard, nay impossible, to not feel sympathy for a man who lost his entire extended family to the gas chambers and just wants somewhere safe to call home.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

11 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Being honest, I find it very difficult to be objective on the Israel question. As a young man, I spent a couple of years there, on and off, as a kibbutz volunteer, and I met a few Holocaust survivors. It's hard, nay impossible, to not feel sympathy for a man who lost his entire extended family to the gas chambers and just wants somewhere safe to call home.

Definitely.  Cant deny anyone that.   

[Strokes]

58 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Anti-semitism I think you mean?

I think it probably does get snuck into discussions about capitalism, due to previous tropes such as were on that artist's work which consciously or sub-consciously are based on anti-semitic views, and condemnation of Israel's actions against Palestinians and I think i've become more aware of that through this whole labour party issue in the media

 

That being said it cleary works both ways and anti-semitism gets thrown at people criticising Israel's actions and also sometimes capitalism in order to deflect from the pertinent issues.

 

Its a great example of how wilingly or clumsily the waters get muddied in discussion and its difficult to have a conversation about these things

 

Corbyn's general political outlook mean that of course he would be the sort to be a critic of Israel's actions towards Palestinians.  I dont think there is anything anti-semitic in that, but things have wound up so that he attends a Jewish gathering and gets called anti-semitic, due to this political conflation

 

This political conflation regarding him he may even be to blame for, because of say, supporting that painting which contained aforementioned anti-semitic tropes

 

The point is, capitalism is a concern which needs addressing.  Israel potentially needs to be investigated more strongly by the international community.

 

Anti-semitism cannot be tolerated

 

The conflation of these things should not exist as they are completely separate.  But the fact that the conflation exists means we are not communicating properly on these matters.  That is probably due to wilfull muddying of the conversation by partisan elements; also probably by accidental confusion caused by genuine anti-semitism; also by emotional reactions of people involved which is understandable

 

Sorry, long post.  Basically its a minefield.  But as far as Corbyn attending this event goes I think the condemnation is a bit wrong that he gets criticised for it on a prejudicial claim when underneath thats really a political thing

 

 

I definitely agree with most of this post and if you take all these incidents in isolation it seems a harsh response. The trouble is they are not isolated and if this were a disposable back bencher he would be suspended by now. He is either very naive or a pretty dangerous individual, I still think it’s the former but like I said last night the end result is the same.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I definitely agree with most of this post and if you take all these incidents in isolation it seems a harsh response. The trouble is they are not isolated and if this were a disposable back bencher he would be suspended by now. He is either very naive or a pretty dangerous individual, I still think it’s the former but like I said last night the end result is the same.

It gets harder and harder to think otherwise tbh

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I definitely agree with most of this post and if you take all these incidents in isolation it seems a harsh response. The trouble is they are not isolated and if this were a disposable back bencher he would be suspended by now. He is either very naive or a pretty dangerous individual, I still think it’s the former but like I said last night the end result is the same.

He's certainly a little naive, or appears to be.  Maybe he could run a tighter ship. 

 

But i'm not sure he's committed an offense that would get him suspended as a back bencher.  Hasnt made remarks about holocaust denial or Hitler supporting zionism or anything like that.  Although, in hindsight i'm finding his comment on that grafitti to be more foolish than I did previously.

 

Someone said that him attending that Seder was a purposeful snub to those who want to address labours anti-semitism issues

 

Its that kind of exaggerated claim that makes it harder for the people who want to address actual issues within the party

 

Surely he thought 'its a good idea to attend this Seder, especially considering i've been called anti-semitic'

 

Probably thought he was nailing politics  

 

 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

He's certainly a little naive, or appears to be.  Maybe he could run a tighter ship. 

 

But i'm not sure he's committed an offense that would get him suspended as a back bencher.  Hasnt made remarks about holocaust denial or Hitler supporting zionism or anything like that.  Although, in hindsight i'm finding his comment on that grafitti to be more foolish than I did previously.

 

Someone said that him attending that Seder was a purposeful snub to those who want to address labours anti-semitism issues

 

Its that kind of exaggerated claim that makes it harder for the people who want to address actual issues within the party

 

Surely he thought 'its a good idea to attend this Seder, especially considering i've been called anti-semitic'

 

Probably thought he was nailing politics  

 

 

The worst thing is, you’re probably right. Look I’m no protector of the Jews and I’m quite happy for people to be anti establishment. I lack a lot knowledge on the sensitivity of these subjects and some of that is wilful ignorance. What would your opinion you be if it was Boris Johnson (which I appreciate he isn’t exactly in a different category himself), I’m not sure it would be quite as forgiving as I’m sure people on the right would be more tolerant of it.

It can’t continue can it? He will surely lose MPs now and the party is heading close to civil war at a time when it was fighting well on a united front. Ok he can’t change a Six year old comment but this has proved to them he won’t learn from it either.

Its a shame, a real shame.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It gets harder and harder to think otherwise tbh

I’m not going to stick the knife in Tod, I get how torn you must be.

 

How do you see this panning out now? Best case, worst case?

[Beechey]

Leader of Momentum just said that Jeremy Corbyn should to go on a training course about anti-semitism. That's actually a bit funny.

Edited 3 April 2018 by Beechey

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The worst thing is, you’re probably right. Look I’m no protector of the Jews and I’m quite happy for people to be anti establishment. I lack a lot knowledge on the sensitivity of these subjects and some of that is wilful ignorance. What would your opinion you be if it was Boris Johnson (which I appreciate he isn’t exactly in a different category himself), I’m not sure it would be quite as forgiving as I’m sure people on the right would be more tolerant of it.

It can’t continue can it? He will surely lose MPs now and the party is heading close to civil war at a time when it was fighting well on a united front. Ok he can’t change a Six year old comment but this has proved to them he won’t learn from it either.

Its a shame, a real shame.

Can't deny that this stuff seems to be potentially overwhelming him at the moment and this seems like an unnecessary blunder on his part.  Tough to see the party remaining intact through all this, but you never know.  He might pull a rabbit out of a hat and steady the ship.......... maybe, haha

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Can't deny that this stuff seems to be potentially overwhelming him at the moment and this seems like an unnecessary blunder on his part.  Tough to see the party remaining intact through all this, but you never know.  He might pull a rabbit out of a hat and steady the ship.......... maybe, haha

I suppose a split in the party might be good if you’re an ardent remainer and consider remaining in the EU more important than despising the tories. If moderate MPs break away from LP they could effectively have a free vote in Parliament and cause the government issues. 

Maybe that could be a positive for you guys if it goes belly up?

[Beechey]

2 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Can't deny that this stuff seems to be potentially overwhelming him at the moment and this seems like an unnecessary blunder on his part.  Tough to see the party remaining intact through all this, but you never know.  He might pull a rabbit out of a hat and steady the ship.......... maybe, haha

I think the systemic issue for the Labour Party is the clear and obvious divide between the PLP and the membership, and possibly even the party membership versus the general election voter base. The differences between ideals of the PLP and the membership are so vast that MPs are being threatened with deselection. I don't think the party will split (as in MPs leaving), but one side will definitely win, with some of the more centrist/moderate MPs probably joining the LDs (or just being deselected...) at the 2022 election, if this trajectory continues.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I suppose a split in the party might be good if you’re an ardent remainer and consider remaining in the EU more important than despising the tories. If moderate MPs break away from LP they could effectively have a free vote in Parliament and cause the government issues. 

Maybe that could be a positive for you guys if it goes belly up?

 

1 minute ago, Beechey said:

I think the systemic issue for the Labour Party is the clear and obvious divide between the PLP and the membership, and possibly even the party membership versus the general election voter base. The differences between ideals of the PLP and the membership are so vast that MPs are being threatened with deselection. I don't think the party will split (as in MPs leaving), but one side will definitely win, with some of the more centrist/moderate MPs probably joining the LDs (or just being deselected...) at the 2022 election, if this trajectory continues.

I never thought Brexit was as important as the state of our domestic politics in general and was quite pleased when the Labour party seemed to settle, albeit quietly reluctantly, behind Corbyn and a more left leaning manifesto

I dont see a fall out over something like this as positive.  If Corbyn could actually make people feel better about this anti-semitism issue and make it go away then that would be great.  Doesnt seem like he is smashing that task though atm

 

Beechey, sounds about right.  Really hard to see it sustaining under Corbyn as his side want to go on and I think I was never that confident it would be maintained.  Always felt like this labour is on thin ice and stuff like this really shows how vulnerable it is 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

I’m not going to stick the knife in Tod, I get how torn you must be.

 

How do you see this panning out now? Best case, worst case?

Tbh when it comes to Corbyn the only real attachment I have relates to the fact he's brought left wing ideas back into the mainstream - the tory lurch to the left (in words but not deeds) is a sign of this. That and his humanity in normal situations. I can't help but believe that he is a good man at heart from the interactions with ordinary people that you see. But that isn't enough if he can't stop putting his foot in it. I think I've said before that he's simultaneously the man who put the left back on the map and the man stopping labour winning.

 

I doubt he'll fall. And if he did I've no idea what the party would do, who would stand etc. 

[breadandcheese]

I actually think this antisemitism issue is good for Corbyn, as long as he can get a lid on it. 

 

Countrywide, does the issue of anti-Semitism register with the general public? Not really. It's a very complex issue which has very little baring on the average British person's life. 

 

The Salisbury poisoning and Russia is far more damaging to Corbyn as he's been shown to be weak and parroting Russians lines. In contrast, it's been very good for Theresa May who has worked a global coalition to produce a measured response.  

 

So there is an argument that Corbyn is better off stoking up the issue of anti-semitism to distract from Salisbury. The more antisemitism, the better as it keeps the story off Russia.  We might be misreading him. Corbyn could be a political genius?

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, Buce said:

Being honest, I find it very difficult to be objective on the Israel question. As a young man, I spent a couple of years there, on and off, as a kibbutz volunteer, and I met a few Holocaust survivors. It's hard, nay impossible, to not feel sympathy for a man who lost his entire extended family to the gas chambers and just wants somewhere safe to call home.

I felt the same after visiting Auschwitz, whatever problem you have you can't help but empathise with a people who went through that.

 

I can understand Corbyn supporting the Palestinian cause, what I can't understand is why he is so opposed to racism/homophobia/Islamophobia etc but they can just sit there time and time again with people who deny the holocaust, I really don't get it. I laughed at the thought he could be the leader of our country a couple of years, now it genuinely scares me.

Edited 3 April 2018 by MattP

[Carl the Llama]

6 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Being honest, I find it very difficult to be objective on the Israel question. As a young man, I spent a couple of years there, on and off, as a kibbutz volunteer, and I met a few Holocaust survivors. It's hard, nay impossible, to not feel sympathy for a man who lost his entire extended family to the gas chambers and just wants somewhere safe to call home.

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I felt the same after visiting Auschwitz, whatever problem you have you can't help but empathise with a people who went through that.

 

I can understand Corbyn supporting the Palestinian cause, what I can't understand is why he is so opposed to racism/homophobia/Islamophobia etc but they can just sit there time and time again with people who deny the holocaust, I really don't get it. I laughed at the thought he could be the leader of our country a couple of years, now it genuinely scares me.

If the issue was as black and white as holocaust survivors wanting somewhere to lay their hat that would make it a whole lot easier but you can't ignore some of the actions taken to create and subsequently by the Israeli state just because of the wrongs experienced by them/their forebears.  To be honest I don't know anywhere near as much about the intricacies as somebody who spent a good couple of years getting stoned and playing fifa with a group of Jews should, but I know enough to know it's an absolute clusterfvck of a topic where both sides have valid grievances and neither side is intrinsically right or wrong and I've always found it a bit odd that any 'outsider' could ever claim to pick one side over the other.

Edited 3 April 2018 by Carl the Llama

[leicsmac]

As an addition to the comments above, it should also be remembered that Israel possesses a full nuclear triad - and with that, the existence of their state or people is never really threatened, unless the enemy fighting them has a death wish too.

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

As an addition to the comments above, it should also be remembered that Israel possesses a full nuclear triad - and with that, the existence of their state or people is never really threatened, unless the enemy fighting them has a death wish too.

 

 

Pretty much describes the jihadi mindset.

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

If the issue was as black and white as holocaust survivors wanting somewhere to lay their hat that would make it a whole lot easier but you can't ignore some of the actions taken to create and subsequently by the Israeli state just because of the wrongs experienced by them/their forebears.  To be honest I don't know anywhere near as much about the intricacies as somebody who spent a good couple of years getting stoned and playing fifa with a group of Jews should, but I know enough to know it's an absolute clusterfvck of a topic where both sides have valid grievances and neither side is intrinsically right or wrong and I've always found it a bit odd that any 'outsider' could ever claim to pick one side over the other.

I made my choice as soon as Iran and groups like Hizbollah said it wanted to wipe Israel off the map. A group of people nearly genocided in our grandparents lifetime threatened with genocide again in our lifetime. 

 

Politically I found it one of the easiest decisions I've made, cultures that can't defend themselves cease to exist. 

[Carl the Llama]

27 minutes ago, MattP said:

I made my choice as soon as Iran and groups like Hizbollah said it wanted to wipe Israel off the map. A group of people nearly genocided in our grandparents lifetime threatened with genocide again in our lifetime. 

 

Politically I found it one of the easiest decisions I've made, cultures that can't defend themselves cease to exist. 

This is a perfect example of what I mean about it being a clusterfvck:  Re. Iran vs. Israel I absolutely support the Israelis and their right not to be nuked out of existence, but when you look at the Israel/Palestine conflict in isolation it's hard not to conclude that Israel demonstrates some traits normally associated with malevolent states, not without provocation though.

Edited 3 April 2018 by Carl the Llama

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Pretty much describes the jihadi mindset.

Some of them at least, but not, I think, the leadership in the countries surrounding Israel.

 

I think that Israel has pretty clear and obvious cause to be wary about what is going on around it but the idea that these states could or would "wipe it off the map" are fanciful at best - it's like the NK's, every leadership around the world values self-preservation above all else at the end of the day, even if you do have some on the fringe that would actually go through with dying to make their point. Those in charge know that Israel have the nuclear trump card and as such they know where any belligerent road ends - even if they were to "win" a conventional war.

Edited 3 April 2018 by leicsmac

[Sharpe's Fox]

Its a bit like N Ireland which, of course, was almost singlehandedly resolved by JC, McDonnell, Bobby Sands and Michael Jacksons "Man in the Mirror". Mo Mowlam actually did F all.

[Buce]

22 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Some of them at least, but not, I think, the leadership in the countries surrounding Israel.

 

I think that Israel has pretty clear and obvious cause to be wary about what is going on around it but the idea that these states could or would "wipe it off the map" are fanciful at best - it's like the NK's, every leadership around the world values self-preservation above all else at the end of the day, even if you do have some on the fringe that would actually go through with dying to make their point. Those in charge know that Israel have the nuclear trump card and as such they know where any belligerent road ends - even if they were to "win" a conventional war.

 

I disagree.

 

You are putting a lot of faith in the self-preservation instincts of people who genuinely believe that when they die they go to paradise.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

I disagree.

 

You are putting a lot of faith in the self-preservation instincts of people who genuinely believe that when they die they go to paradise.

I'm putting faith in the idea that only a very small proportion of nutters who say that they're ready and willing to die to go to Paradise will actually go through with it, and that those people will never be in charge of a nation in enough strength or long enough to threaten the existence of the Israeli state in any meaningful and tangible manner (all of this being the only circumstance I can think of where Israel would actually have to use its nuclear arsenal).

[RumbleFox]

Can I just say some genuinely thoughtful discussions on here re. Corbyn.  It is a very complex discussion which I think both sides are guilty of over simplifying so nice to read some nuanced stuff.  Well done Foxestalk.  Who'd have thunk it?  X

Edited 3 April 2018 by RumbleFox