Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, toddybad said:

So is the leavers insistence that any negative effects are fine so long as they can say our government has a say. Our MEPs have a say in an European legislation currently. Reducing standards to save a few quid is one of the greatest harms tory governments have landed to our country in normal times, let alone purposely doing it to entice foreign countries to strike trade deals with us. You lot will back anything.

Our government makes the rules Toddy, it doesn't just "have a say".

 

That's the whole point of taking back control.

[Beechey]

52 minutes ago, Milo said:

Remoaners are getting a bit desperate, no?

 

The economy will collapse

then

We will have no trade deals

now

We will have lower food standards 

 

I’m happy to provide a barrel of anyone needs to scrape it. 

 

 

I have said before that I don’t feel particularly strongly either way. I’m sure there will be some positive and some negatives, but the constant whining...jeez...

 

My personal favourite was "Pound will reach parity with Dollar and Euro by the end of 2017"

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Beechey said:

My personal favourite was "Pound will reach parity with Dollar and Euro by the end of 2017"

Mine was Calais camp moving to Kent.

[SMX11]

3 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

To be honest if it brings in a cheaper food that lowers prices, people can chose whether to eat it or not.

 

I am quite sure that if we have pus milk or chlorinated chicken it will be considerably cheaper and labelled as such.

 

Whether or not people chose to buy it is up to them. If say a family can get a chlorinated roast chicken for half the price of a standard chicken is that a bad thing if they want to eat it? I don't know if there is really evidence to suggest that these things are bad for us? Whilst I agree it sounds disgusting and it possibly hides some questionable farming techniques.

 

I would not eat it but I think limiting the choice for others who may not be able to afford alternatives is wrong. 

Agreed, a lot of the standards the EU have are based on the precautionary principle anyway (and no doubt lobbying by special interest groups). More competition the better in my view. Stop subsidising farmers to produce 'X' and maybe fund them to improve drainage runoff etc instead like Gove has mentioned.

[Sharpe's Fox]

The left will win and the chickens will be made of lentils and formulated egg you cvnts 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Our government makes the rules Toddy, it doesn't just "have a say".

 

That's the whole point of taking back control.

We'll be signing trade deals from a position of weakness and desperation. If we're lucky we'll have a say.

Edited 11 April 2018 by Guest

[Burmesefox]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Mine was Calais camp moving to Kent.

Well actually that is still possible if Le Touquet agreement is rescinded/torn up. Macron has stated that France will no longer be Britain's coastguard - so if checks are made in UK rather than France yes we could have Sangatte in Kent. 

 

[Burmesefox]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Our government makes the rules Toddy, it doesn't just "have a say".

 

That's the whole point of taking back control.

Taking back control? If trade deals with the EU go through we will still have to abide by the EU's conditions but now without a say. 

[Beechey]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Mine was Calais camp moving to Kent.

Got a friend who lives in Canterbury, says there's no signs of a massive refugee community there yet. Gee golly, must have all been bluster and lies 

 

11 minutes ago, Burmesefox said:

Well actually that is still possible if Le Touquet agreement is rescinded/torn up. Macron has stated that France will no longer be Britain's coastguard - so if checks are made in UK rather than France yes we could have Sangatte in Kent. 

 

Any attempt to end the agreement more or less died when we invested hundreds of millions in security in Calais last year. Now to invest our way back into owning Calais. Bring back the Captaincy of Calais. Rightfully English. French pirates!

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[Burmesefox]

3 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Got a friend who lives in Canterbury, says there's no signs of a massive refugee community there yet. Gee golly, must have all been bluster and lies 

It wont happen overnight, if indeed it happens at all. The point is that Macron stated if we leave the EU he will look to tear up the Le Touquet agreement. He part fort his election on this. The Le Touquet agreement means we can perform passport control in France rather than in Dover etc. So if the treaty goes we may have a big problem. 

[Beechey]

5 minutes ago, Burmesefox said:

It wont happen overnight, if indeed it happens at all. The point is that Macron stated if we leave the EU he will look to tear up the Le Touquet agreement. He part fort his election on this. The Le Touquet agreement means we can perform passport control in France rather than in Dover etc. So if the treaty goes we may have a big problem. 

Yes, and in response we dedicated £150m to help defend Calais. There won't be any treaty tearing.

 

Looks just like he's gearing up to rip that treaty up, doesn't it?

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[Rogstanley]

9 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Yes, and in response we dedicated £150m to help defend Calais. There won't be any treaty tearing.

 

Looks just like he's gearing up to rip that treaty up, doesn't it?

So now we have to pay France for something we used to get for free. So good.

 

All this talk of brexit whiners, stop waiting for anything positive to come out of brexit. Anything? Anyone? 

[Beechey]

23 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

So now we have to pay France for something we used to get for free. So good.

 

All this talk of brexit whiners, stop waiting for anything positive to come out of brexit. Anything? Anyone? 

Are you kidding me? £150m is 0.018% of annual government expenditure, for a one-time payment in order to keep the problem in France. For the record, we never got it for free, we've always helped in security of the port and tunnel considering our border forces are there.

 

Hold the presses, stop Brexit, we spent 0.018% on something that benefits us!

 

That's without the obvious point that Macron would have always demanded this, Brexit or not.

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[Innovindil]

12 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

So now we have to pay France for something we used to get for free. So good.

 

All this talk of brexit whiners, stop waiting for anything positive to come out of brexit. Anything? Anyone? 

Gonna assume that stop is supposed to say still. 

 

I got another payrise at the end of the tax year if that cheers you up? 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Beechey said:

My personal favourite was "Pound will reach parity with Dollar and Euro by the end of 2017"

It should be remembered that the claims made by both sides failed to materialise, not just those made by the remain campaign. Leavers can't claim victory when their own statements have turned out to be false also.

[Beechey]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It should be remembered that the claims made by both sides failed to materialise, not just those made by the remain campaign. Leavers can't claim victory when their own statements have turned out to be false also.

I'd never claim Leave was honest either. It just gets silly with the entire "Leave won because they lied" mantra, when both sides clearly bent the truth.

 

For example, why couldn't Leave just use "£175m a week" (the true net figure at the time) rather than £350m? It has the exact same effect, seems a massive amount if you don't know how much our government spends every year. Equally, why would Remain say leaving would cost every single household £4,300 a year? Ludicrous statement and debunked and subsequently thrown in the bin by the campaign.

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Beechey said:

I'd never claim Leave was honest either. It just gets silly with the entire "Leave won because they lied" mantra, when both sides clearly bent the truth.

Which is precisely why pointing at referendum claims now as some sort of evidence that the other side is more realistic is ridiculous.

 

There are clearly a lot of risks and unknowns. At this moment nobody can point to any firm positives. If they arrive then great but, until then, leavers should really stop claiming great opportunities lie over the rainbow.

[Beechey]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Which is precisely why pointing at referendum claims now as some sort of evidence that the other side is more realistic is ridiculous.

 

There are clearly a lot of risks and unknowns. At this moment nobody can point to any firm positives. If they arrive then great but, until then, leavers should really stop claiming great opportunities lie over the rainbow.

Except we know what we will end up will have advantages. We know as a fact that we will be able to negotiate our own trade agreements, or if we choose, drop tariffs for some products entirely for example - something not possible inside the EU. Obviously this has its drawbacks, but attempting to pretend that this won't happen at this point is mad. We know we won't be tied into the CAP or CFP (a bit in the air in fairness), we know we won't be subject to the same military alignments that the EU is now conducting, or the foreign policy agenda they want to establish.

 

In ways it's best for both sides.

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Beechey said:

Except we know what we will end up will have advantages. We know as a fact that we will be able to negotiate our own trade agreements, or if we choose, drop tariffs for some products entirely for example - something not possible inside the EU. Obviously this has its drawbacks, but attempting to pretend that this won't happen at this point is mad.

But you don't know that they are advantages until they're signed. You have no way of knowing if we can get good deals. We don't have the EU's position of strength from which to negotiate. Countries seek out deals with the EU. We will be seeking out deals with other countries. It seems unlikely from the EU talks so far that we'll be able to drop tariffs on goods as we choose without taking a significant hit on the EU deal terms. You definitely cannot claim to know if that would be a positive or negative. We all have to hope it works out well but claiming that "we know" there are advantages is rubbish.

[Buce]

37 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

 

 

I got another payrise at the end of the tax year if that cheers you up? 

 

Is that as a direct result of Brexit?

[Beechey]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

But you don't know that they are advantages until they're signed. You have no way of knowing if we can get good deals. We don't have the EU's position of strength from which to negotiate. Countries seek out deals with the EU. We will be seeking out deals with other countries. It seems unlikely from the EU talks so far that we'll be able to drop tariffs on goods as we choose without taking a significant hit on the EU deal terms. You definitely cannot claim to know if that would be a positive or negative. We all have to hope it works out well but claiming that "we know" there are advantages is rubbish.

Except the ability to negotiate for ourselves it in itself a positive. The EU could do nothing to stop us dropping tariffs for anything, trade agreement or not, unless explicitly stated in that agreement.

[Innovindil]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Is that as a direct result of Brexit?

Depends on interpretation. It's a direct result of struggling to find skilled workers. We've had a few go back to their eu homes since the referendum and are struggling to replace them. Whether they went back/we're struggling to find more because of the referendum result I couldn't guarantee. 

[Fox Ulike]

3 hours ago, Beechey said:

My personal favourite was "Pound will reach parity with Dollar and Euro by the end of 2017"

That was based on the hard Brexit that the Government were seemingly pursuing at that time. It's called "scenario planning". You state the conditions of your scenario (eg hard Brexit) and you then make your predictions based on the assumptions that you make in that scenario.

 

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Mine was Calais camp moving to Kent.

You do know that we've not left the EU yet?

 

Could this still happen?. Unless there's an international law to prohibit it,  I'd say it was more likely, rather than less, that France will allow illegal migrants from the middle-east to travel on to the UK? Belguim and Holland too? 

 

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Depends on interpretation. It's a direct result of struggling to find skilled workers. We've had a few go back to their eu homes since the referendum and are struggling to replace them. Whether they went back/we're struggling to find more because of the referendum result I couldn't guarantee. 

 

Congratulations. 

 

But it doesn’t really answer Moose’s question with a ‘yes’,does it?

Edited 11 April 2018 by Buce

[Fox Ulike]

5 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Except the ability to negotiate for ourselves it in itself a positive. The EU could do nothing to stop us dropping tariffs for anything, trade agreement or not, unless explicitly stated in that agreement.

Well, couldn't they threaten other countries with increased tariffs if they agree to give the UK a preferential deal?