Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Beechey]

Just now, Fox Ulike said:

Well, couldn't they threaten other countries with increased tariffs if they agree to give the UK a preferential deal?

It's not up to other countries if we lower our tariffs.

[Innovindil]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Congratulations. 

 

But it doesn’t really answer Moose’s question with a ‘yes’,does it?

Like I said, open to interpretation. I didn't have a rise for 3 years before the referendum, I've had 2 since the referendum and a fall in available workers. 

 

So I'll chalk it up as a positive. 

[Buce]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Like I said, open to interpretation. I didn't have a rise for 3 years before the referendum, I've had 2 since the referendum and a fall in available workers. 

 

So I'll chalk it up as a positive. 

 

Meh. 

 

It’s a maybe, at best. 

[Fox Ulike]

4 minutes ago, Beechey said:

It's not up to other countries if we lower our tariffs.

OK well, imports don't really matter too much. Yes we'll have cheaper Bananas. They cost 22p at the moment, but they'll be cheaper so we'll all be taking to the streets to celebrate that one.   That will clearly be a benefit of Brexit.

 

The worry is around exports. The EU is hardly likely to look on and do nothing if other countries start giving the UK preferential deals for exports which undercut EU tariffs.. Are they?

 

Don't you think that the EU and the UK will be competitors in the post-Brexit world? Who's gonna win that trade war?

 

 

[Beechey]

4 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

OK well, imports don't really matter too much. Yes we'll have cheaper Bananas. They cost 22p at the moment, but they'll be cheaper so we'll all be taking to the streets to celebrate that one.   That will clearly be a benefit of Brexit.

 

The worry is around exports. The EU is hardly likely to look on and do nothing if other countries start giving the UK preferential deals for exports which undercut EU tariffs.. Are they?

 

Don't you think that the EU and the UK will be competitors in the post-Brexit world? Who's gonna win that trade war?

 

 

Cheaper basic clothing not a positive? Why choose bananas and wilfully ignore all of the kinds of products that we don't produce ourselves that we could find are cheaper if we lower tariffs from abroad?

 

What are you talking about? Who mentioned anything about our exports? You're fabricating an argument here. Frankly I think you misunderstand the EU. Does it threaten Canada because it has a better deal with the US and Mexico than it does with the EU? Does it threaten Australia with punitive action because of their market with New Zealand or vice versa? Does it threaten any other country it deals with that has other agreements with other countries that might be better than what the EU was willing to offer?

 

Why all of a sudden would it start a confrontation with a neighbour it's on good relations with and relies on for vital security apparatus?

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[Fox Ulike]

1 minute ago, Beechey said:

Cheaper basic clothing not a positive? Why choose bananas and wilfully ignore all of the kinds of products that we don't produce ourselves that we could find are cheaper if we lower tariffs from abroad?

 

What are you talking about? Who mentioned anything about our exports? You're fabricating an argument here.

I wasn't wilfully ignoring them. It's really just a question of time and energy. The UK imports literally millions of products each year. Call me lazy, but I just couldn't be bothered to list all of them in my post.

 

I'm talking about exports cos you were talking about tariffs.  It's not fabricated. They're a real thing, honestly. Exports are products that a country produces but then ships abroad to sell to other countries. Google it.

 

 

[Beechey]

3 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

I wasn't wilfully ignoring them. It's really just a question of time and energy. The UK imports literally millions of products each year. Call me lazy, but I just couldn't be bothered to list all of them in my post.

 

I'm talking about exports cos you were talking about tariffs.  It's not fabricated. They're a real thing, honestly. Exports are products that a country produces but then ships abroad to sell to other countries. Google it.

 

 

"What are you talking about? Who mentioned anything about our exports? You're fabricating an argument here. Frankly I think you misunderstand the EU. Does it threaten Canada because it has a better deal with the US and Mexico than it does with the EU? Does it threaten Australia with punitive action because of their market with New Zealand or vice versa? Does it threaten any other country it deals with that has other agreements with other countries that might be better than what the EU was willing to offer?

 

Why all of a sudden would it start a confrontation with a neighbour it's on good relations with and relies on for vital security apparatus?"

 

There's this thing called "international diplomacy", the EU likes to use it. Google it.

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[jammie82uk]

Thought something had happened with this appearing as a popular topic on the homepage, I was last on here 400 pages ago and it seems it’s still the exact same circle of argument 

[Beechey]

7 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

Thought something had happened with this appearing as a popular topic on the homepage, I was last on here 400 pages ago and it seems it’s still the exact same circle of argument 

Well some people will never compromise on their opinions.

[Fox Ulike]

3 minutes ago, Beechey said:

"What are you talking about? Who mentioned anything about our exports? You're fabricating an argument here. Frankly I think you misunderstand the EU. Does it threaten Canada because it has a better deal with the US and Mexico than it does with the EU? Does it threaten Australia with punitive action because of their market with New Zealand or vice versa? Does it threaten any other country it deals with that has other agreements with other countries that might be better than what the EU was willing to offer?

 

Why all of a sudden would it start a confrontation with a neighbour it's on good relations with and relies on for vital security apparatus?"

 

The EU doesn't have any trade relationship with the UK. It's also never had another big economy on it's doorstep before. 

 

OK, a trade war may be putting it too strong. But it seems naïve to  expect the EU to simply sit back and allow the UK to snaffle up preferential export tariffs.

 

 

[Beechey]

Just now, Fox Ulike said:

 

The EU doesn't have any trade relationship with the UK. It's also never had another big economy on it's doorstep before. 

 

OK, a trade war may be putting it too strong. But it seems naïve to  expect the EU to simply sit back and allow the UK to snaffle up preferential export tariffs.

 

 

It's not going to happen. It simply won't. If the EU wants better terms in trade agreements then it will need to compromise more, it's as simple as that. It won't risk damaging its image or relations with emerging markets because the members won't allow it.

[Fox Ulike]

10 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

Thought something had happened with this appearing as a popular topic on the homepage, I was last on here 400 pages ago and it seems it’s still the exact same circle of argument 

And every 400 pages, like clockwork, some pedant comes on and aimlessly points this out to everybody.

[Fox Ulike]

3 minutes ago, Beechey said:

It's not going to happen. It simply won't. If the EU wants better terms in trade agreements then it will need to compromise more, it's as simple as that. It won't risk damaging its image or relations with emerging markets because the members won't allow it.

Who knows.

 

So, for the UK " the ability to negotiate for ourselves it in itself a positive"

 

But for the EU  "If the EU wants better terms in trade agreements then it will need to compromise more"

 

It's a positive for the UK but a compromise for the EU??

 

How do you work that one out?

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Except the ability to negotiate for ourselves it in itself a positive. The EU could do nothing to stop us dropping tariffs for anything, trade agreement or not, unless explicitly stated in that agreement.

No, that's simply your opinion. It's fine to have that opinion but it isn't a positive until it's proven to have positive effects.

 

And the EU have made it quite clear we won't get the terms we want if the door is still open for us to reduce tariffs and/or regulations on their doorstep.

Edited 11 April 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Beechey said:

It's not going to happen. It simply won't. If the EU wants better terms in trade agreements then it will need to compromise more, it's as simple as that. It won't risk damaging its image or relations with emerging markets because the members won't allow it.

Every country in the world is begging for a trade deal with the EU. It gets the terms it wants.

 

Meanwhile, India have said they want better freedoms of movement, Australia and the us want us to reduce regulations. We will need to bend over backwards to get free trade and we'll still have third parties running the rule over whether we are adhering to agreements.

Edited 11 April 2018 by Guest

[Beechey]

14 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

Who knows.

 

So, for the UK " the ability to negotiate for ourselves it in itself a positive"

 

But for the EU  "If the EU wants better terms in trade agreements then it will need to compromise more"

 

It's a positive for the UK but a compromise for the EU??

 

How do you work that one out?

The fact you fail to see the glaring difference between threatening punitive actions and simply negotiating a trade agreement is telling.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Fox Ulike said:

You do know that we've not left the EU yet?

 

Could this still happen?. Unless there's an international law to prohibit it,  I'd say it was more likely, rather than less, that France will allow illegal migrants from the middle-east to travel on to the UK? Belguim and Holland too?

Nope, see the stuff Beachy has posted about Le Touquet - although even if they did tear it up, I'm certain our government would then make provisions for this, the idea we'd still allow an open border and France to ship undocumented migrants through it is a little far fetched to say the least.

[Guest]

I really don't know why the Brexiters let themselves get involved in trade arguments.

 

If you care about free trade all of the experts agree that Brexit is a nonsense. There's nothing to argue about. 

 

If you didn't like freedom of movement, EU beaurocracy etc that's fine. I don't agree but that's fine. Just say so and leave it there.

 

To start banging on about how were gong to confound all the experts (including the wto itself) is simply intellectually disingenuous.

[Beechey]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I really don't know why the Brexiters let themselves get involved in trade arguments.

 

If you care about free trade all of the experts agree that Brexit is a nonsense. There's nothing to argue about. 

 

If you didn't like freedom of movement, EU beaurocracy etc that's fine. I don't agree but that's fine. Just say so and leave it there.

 

To start banging on about how were gong to confound all the experts (including the wto itself) is simply intellectually disingenuous.

What on god's green Earth are you on about? Who is talking about "confounding the experts" (and your impressive sample size of one, with no citation)? We're having a civil discussion, if you'd like to take part. You'd have to not throw out random insults like you just have there though. Might be hard, but I understand.

 

For the record, I've always been in favour of EFTA membership, but we're not getting that, so why not talk about what is more likely?

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I really don't know why the Brexiters let themselves get involved in trade arguments.

 

If you care about free trade all of the experts agree that Brexit is a nonsense. There's nothing to argue about. 

 

If you didn't like freedom of movement, EU beaurocracy etc that's fine. I don't agree but that's fine. Just say so and leave it there.

 

To start banging on about how were gong to confound all the experts (including the wto itself) is simply intellectually disingenuous.

Not a single person has said that.

[Rogstanley]

2 hours ago, Beechey said:

Are you kidding me? £150m is 0.018% of annual government expenditure, for a one-time payment in order to keep the problem in France. For the record, we never got it for free, we've always helped in security of the port and tunnel considering our border forces are there.

 

Hold the presses, stop Brexit, we spent 0.018% on something that benefits us!

 

That's without the obvious point that Macron would have always demanded this, Brexit or not.

£150m is £150m I'm afraid. That's money that could have been spent on schools, hospitals or a myriad of other ways of improving lives.

[Beechey]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

£150m is £150m I'm afraid. That's money that could have been spent on schools, hospitals or a myriad of other ways of improving lives.

That's assuming it was 'new' money not already allocated to a department, which it almost certainly was.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Beechey said:

It's not up to other countries if we lower our tariffs.

You can't just go round lowering tariffs willy nilly. You need to look into this.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Beechey said:

That's assuming it was 'new' money not already allocated to a department, which it almost certainly was.

So which other bit of that departments budget is suffering?

[Beechey]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You can't just go round lowering tariffs willy nilly. You need to look into this.

Sure I'll bite: tell me why. Why can't a government lower tariffs if it wants to? What international mechanism stops it from doing so?

Edited 11 April 2018 by Beechey