Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

And the government is planning to raise taxes higher, despite their attempts to spin public expenditures as a brexit dividend.

 

I'm expecting insurance premium tax to be raised to 20% inline with VAT, fuel duty rises to be unfrozen, tax bands not to increase with inflation and over 65s to pay NI. Those are the easy hits I think the chancellor will reach for at the next budget. They still won't cover the expenditures planned, so I'm not sure what else is in the pipeline.

I dread to think what is coming. If we wanted this we could just have voted for Ed Miliband.

 

I still don't see any logical strategy at all behind the Conservatives apparant plan to become a high tax, big state identity politics party. It won't end well.

[Izzy]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Come on, Izzy. He has a point.

 

The Govt has offered public sector employees a rise roughly in line with inflation for one year - so real pay will stay about the same for a year, after falling for about 6-7 years.

But they've made clear that there'll be no extra money for this - the extra pay will have to come from further cuts to the spending of already cash-strapped departments.

 

Hardly grounds for ticker tape and whooping in the street. The Govt obviously face a difficult year ahead with Brexit and have opted to do the minimum to temporarily get another source of public discontent off their backs.

 

I wonder what the pay deals and public spending will be like in 2-3 years time, if Brexit damages the economy and tax revenues?

But, of course, that won't happen. Liam Fox is waiting in the wings with his bundle of great trade deals to export tariff-free Gareth Southgate waistcoats to Samoa, Scotch to Saudi Arabia and prawn crackers to China.

Fair enough. I figured a decent pay rise for a million people was better than a kick in the nads but what do I know? 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Fair enough. I figured a decent pay rise for a million people was better than a kick in the nads but what do I know? 

Did I, or did I not, welcome the pay rise?

 

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Fair enough. I figured a decent pay rise for a million people was better than a kick in the nads but what do I know? 

 

A year of not being kicked in the nads is a definite improvement after 6-7 years of being kicked in the nads, I'll grant you that, even if the deal includes them taking away some of the tools of your trade. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

I dread to think what is coming. If we wanted this we could just have voted for Ed Miliband.

 

I still don't see any logical strategy at all behind the Conservatives apparant plan to become a high tax, big state identity politics party. It won't end well.

Interestingly, the Tories attacked Miliband's proposals as "socialist" them, after the election, the amount Osbourne was spending was loosened to be roughly in line with the labour proposals. 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Interestingly, the Tories attacked Miliband's proposals as "socialist" them, after the election, the amount Osbourne was spending was loosened to be roughly in line with the labour proposals. 

So it wasn't austerity then?

[Izzy]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Did I, or did I not, welcome the pay rise?

 

You’re sounding more and more like a politician every day mate 

[Max Wall]

5 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Reminds me a bit of Gordon Brown. He struggled in the same way.

 

I remember when his wife had to get up on stage at the Labour party conference to tell everyone that he was actually a nice bloke.

Tough to convince people though Izzy, when he'd sold off half the UK's gold reserves whilst chancellor of the exchequer previous to his stint as PM (during the lowest gold price for 20 years). The die was cast from that point onwards for Brown really, if it hadn't been previously.

I'm sure he's a perfectly nice fellow at home but he made quite a lot of mistakes during his tenures in high office. When you are in these high profile positions, people will shoot at you even if you don't give them ammunition. Unfortunately for him, he supplied his critics with a full arsenal for them to fire back at him.

I wanted to be a politician in my teens, God knows why. I'm glad I grew out of that quickly given that the scrutiny on you is intense.

 

 

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

First the NHS and now this! All courtesy of your caring, sharing Tory government 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44933009

Public sector workers: Pay rises announced for a million people

 

 

Uhhh... those same million people could be out of employment within a year when their departments can't afford the new salaries under all the persistent cuts and the fact this bump isn't actually coming from additional central government funding. 

 

There's always a catch with the Tories. There's the vote grabbing headline on the front page and the big stealth dildo heading straight for your arse while you're distracted. 

 

Like "yay, poor people, 1% rent reduction for all council tenants!" 

 

(btw, local authorities? You're covering that cost not us oh and the tenants weren't paying you themselves it was all out of their benefits so actually the only people that profit is us mua ha ha ha.)

 

Then next thing you know, local authorities starts shedding services, cutting staff, closing offices etc and who suffers? Oh yeah, those tenants who never saw the financial benefit of their 1% rent saving anyway. 

 

**** the tories and **** anyone pretending they're doing right by the public sector. 

 

If you are, for some weird Conservative, libertarian, misguided, uneducated, neanderthal reason actually against public services then at least have the balls to say "I'm an actual evil **** and I'm glad the tory party vampires are cutting down on the sector."

 

That's fair enough. It's your opinion, your politics, freedom of belief, go about your life. Cool.

 

But don't actually pretend that this is the Conservative party doing anything decent by the public sector or its staff. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I might have a slight left wing bias..... 

 

Edited 24 July 2018 by Finnegan

[Guest MattP]

15 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Interestingly, the Tories attacked Miliband's proposals as "socialist" them, after the election, the amount Osbourne was spending was loosened to be roughly in line with the labour proposals. 

They did, yet now implement this nonsense themselves.

 

If I was cynical I'd say they were expecting to lose the next election and making sure Labour come into a deficit, bit obviously I'm not.

[Max Wall]

2 hours ago, Charl91 said:

 

To be fair to both Gordon Brown and May though, as cringeworthy as some of these interviews can be, at the end of the day I'm not particularly bothered about how charming and charismatic our leaders are, as long as they are competent at their job*. Would much rather a boring man in a grey suit than a charming snake-oil salesman. It's a shame so much stock is put on appearances, as there's nothing worse than politicians trying to convince people that they're "one of us" - David Cameron and his beloved West Ham springs to mind.

 

This has been 'imported' from the good ol' USA.

There is a significant school of thought (backed up by polls done at the time) that voters listening to the Presidential debate on radio in 1960 favoured Nixon over Kennedy whilst those who watched on television favoured Kennedy, the more youthful (and therefore better looking) candidate.

It's arguable but the emphasis on how important looks (and body language) are to candidates chances seem to have increased significantly from that point onwards. As always, we are a few decades behind the US, but most things make their way here eventually. Certainly I think some of the politicians (some good, some bad) we have had in the recent past would be unlikely to have made it as far in 2018 as they did even 30 years ago. I'd give Michael Foot as an example. I simply couldn't see people voting for him these days on his appearance alone, which is pretty sad.

However, we are headed in the right direction, we all know fluorescent teeth and a full head of hair are extremely important when evaluating someones capacity to do a job.

 

[davieG]

1 minute ago, Max Wall said:

This has been 'imported' from the good ol' USA.

There is a significant school of thought (backed up by polls done at the time) that voters listening to the Presidential debate on radio in 1960 favoured Nixon over Kennedy whilst those who watched on television favoured Kennedy, the more youthful (and therefore better looking) candidate.

It's arguable but the emphasis on how important looks (and body language) are to candidates chances seem to have increased significantly from that point onwards. As always, we are a few decades behind the US, but most things make their way here eventually. Certainly I think some of the politicians (some good, some bad) we have had in the recent past would be unlikely to have made it as far in 2018 as they did even 30 years ago. I'd give Michael Foot as an example. I simply couldn't see people voting for him these days on his appearance alone, which is pretty sad.

However, we are headed in the right direction, we all know fluorescent teeth and a full head of hair are extremely important when evaluating someones capacity to do a job.

 

They didn't vote for him back then due to his appearance amongst other reasons, his appearance was the butt of many bad press editorials, cartoons and general commentary.

 

The media once again have a lot to answer for and it's now become the norm for a high proportion of the general public, even more so with social media to comment on looks rather than substance.

[Max Wall]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

They didn't vote for him back then due to his appearance amongst other reasons, his appearance was the butt of many bad press editorials, cartoons and general commentary.

 

The media once again have a lot to answer for and it's now become the norm for a high proportion of the general public, even more so with social media to comment on looks rather than substance.

Appearance probably was a factor back then as you say, but it was probably one of a myriad of reasons.

I suppose my point really is that appearance would be the main reason now. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that he simply wouldn't even get to the position today that he did 35 years ago on appearance alone.

Of course the media have to take some responsibility but the general populations decline into style over substance attitude is self inflicted. Thatchers 'sod your neighbour, I'm alright' politics was all part of the descent too.

[Webbo]

It's too easy to blame America or the media for the superficial nature of politics. Nobody forces people to act that way, It's the same in non english speaking countries.We could all rise above it.The media makes it's money by giving people what they want.

[Alf Bentley]

41 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

You’re sounding more and more like a politician every day mate 

 

"Ah did not have sexual relations with that woman.....Mrs. May....in that wheat field. These allegations are false!" 

[Max Wall]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

It's too easy to blame America or the media for the superficial nature of politics. Nobody forces people to act that way, It's the same in non english speaking countries.We could all rise above it.The media makes it's money by giving people what they want.

I'm not sure if that was in response to my post @Webbo? I assume so. I'm not blaming America, I'm blaming us for not learning from their mistakes. We're as bad as them, they are just ahead of us in the race.

 

Edited 24 July 2018 by Max Wall

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

I'm not sure if that was in response to my post @Webbo? I assume so. I'm not blaming America, I'm blaming us for not learning from their mistakes. We're as bad as them, they are just ahead of us in the race.

 

 

In response to you and davie. 

 

Why are film stars all good looking when when an ugly person might be the better actor? It's just human nature, no one is to blame, it's just the way we are.

[Max Wall]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

In response to you and davie. 

 

Why are film stars all good looking when when an ugly person might be the better actor? It's just human nature, no one is to blame, it's just the way we are.

Do you think that's true really?

The way politicians looked really didn't seem to matter 40/50 years ago, people were way more concerned with their ability to do the job. That's what is changing/has changed.

Not sure the film star analogy works. We watch films for titillation and entertainment, of course we'd all like them to be as pretty as possible (male & female before anyone gets offended), why wouldn't we? That doesn't mean I want Naomi Campbell deciding the income tax rate though. It's important for politicians be capable, nothing else. That has been lost somewhat and that's a more recent thing.

Edited 24 July 2018 by Max Wall

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

Do you think that's true really?

The way politicians looked really didn't seem to matter 40/50 years ago, people were way more concerned with their ability to do the job. That's what is changing/has changed.

Not sure the film start analogy works. We watch films for titillation and entertainment, of course we'd all like them to be as pretty as possible (male & female before anyone gets offended), why wouldn't we? That doesn't mean I want Naomi Campbell deciding the income tax rate though. It's important for politicians be capable, nothing else. That has been lost somewhat and that's a more recent thing.

Not Naomi Campbell obviously, not chesty enough.

[Max Wall]

Just now, Webbo said:

Not Naomi Campbell obviously, not chesty enough.

You like a deep voice?

Brian Blessed then.

[Suzie the Fox]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Not Naomi Campbell obviously, not chesty enough.

My dad (rip) had a massive thing for her. He said it wasnt that she was super hot looking but the fact she had big lips. I never understood what he ment.

[Max Wall]

This thread is a Godsend during the close season. So much better than 250 pages on why Tillekaratne Natajana from FC Colombo has turned us down.

Edited 24 July 2018 by Max Wall

[Buce]

59 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

This has been 'imported' from the good ol' USA.

There is a significant school of thought (backed up by polls done at the time) that voters listening to the Presidential debate on radio in 1960 favoured Nixon over Kennedy whilst those who watched on television favoured Kennedy, the more youthful (and therefore better looking) candidate.

It's arguable but the emphasis on how important looks (and body language) are to candidates chances seem to have increased significantly from that point onwards. As always, we are a few decades behind the US, but most things make their way here eventually. Certainly I think some of the politicians (some good, some bad) we have had in the recent past would be unlikely to have made it as far in 2018 as they did even 30 years ago. I'd give Michael Foot as an example. I simply couldn't see people voting for him these days on his appearance alone, which is pretty sad.

However, we are headed in the right direction, we all know fluorescent teeth and a full head of hair are extremely important when evaluating someones capacity to do a job.

 

6

 

Great.

 

Legal weed just when I'm ready to shuffle off this mortal coil.

 

FML

[Max Wall]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Great.

 

Legal weed just when I'm ready to shuffle off this mortal coil.

 

FML

 Hadn't even considered it!

Scratch everything I've said previously and consider me a fully fledged member of Uncle Sam's army henceforth.

[Guest MattP]

29 minutes ago, Suzie the Fox said:

My dad (rip) had a massive thing for her. He said it wasnt that she was super hot looking but the fact she had big lips. I never understood what he ment.

I never got the fascination with her at all, extremely average.

 

I honestly think Serena Williams is a sexier black woman, I'd rather get in bed with Sol Campbell than Naomi.

 

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Great.

 

Legal weed just when I'm ready to shuffle off this mortal coil.

 

FML

Hard Brexit, legalise it.

 

Deal or No Deal Buce?