Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[davieG]

8 hours ago, Strokes said:

This is the sort of thing that will result in me voting Labour at the next election. Cost cutting on national projects, to award contracts to companies not paying into our economy, makes no sense to me. It’s completely against any logic I understand. Hopefully they will see sense. 

The only downside to that is so many perceived to be British companies are foreign owned and the money leaves the country any way, I guess we get the jobs and the company taxes, perhaps. 

Even big stuff like ships, planes, cars and trains etc a lot of the content comes from abroad.

[Buce]

 

#FreeTommy – the making of a far-right English ‘martyr’

A jail term has made the ex-English Defence League leader Tommy Robinson a US-backed ‘victim of the liberal elite’

 

As the rain fell on 6 February 2016, Tommy Robinson led a small crowd through an industrial estate on the edge of Birmingham. It was the launch event of Pegida UK, the anti-Islam outfit founded by Robinson. Fewer than 200 supporters turned up. Undeterred, he outlined the group’s pan-European ambitions. No other marches would follow.

Robinson had hit rock bottom. His other venture, the virulently Islamophobic English Defence League, had fractured and declined two years earlier. So low was his stock that anti-fascist organisations had stopped taking him seriously.

Fast forward 30 months and that stock has seen an extraordinary, and unsettling, rise. Robinson – real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon – is now positioned as a superstar of the international radical right, a global “martyr” for free speech and a lightning rod through which the far right intends to wage its struggle to protect “traditional” western freedoms from the perceived foes of Islam and liberal democracy.

 

It was his 13-month prison sentence for contempt of court in May that, according to Rob Ford, professor of politics at the University of Manchester, cemented Robinson’s journey from fringe player to occupying “a valuable niche in the radical-right ecosystem”.

This week the court of appeal will deliver its judgment on whether Robinson should be released from prison immediately. If it rules in his favour, the Observer has been told, his newfound liberty may well be celebrated with a key position within the new rightwing European populist foundation, called The Movement, being planned by Steve Bannon.

Donald Trump’s former White House adviser wants The Movement to focus its efforts on the European parliament elections next spring, as well as the post-Brexit landscape in the UK, where he anticipates being able to exploit the disaffection of millions of Leave voters in the event of a deal they feel is not what they voted for. A high-profile figure with a sizeable rightwing fanbase will be required to lead the fight. That figure, some say, will be Robinson.

 

“It’s his if he wants it. He’s the key figure, the most charismatic. He’ll come out of prison as a superstar, especially in North America. He’ll be on Fox News, everywhere. It’ll be a massive few weeks for him,” said Joe Mulhall of Hope not Hate, which has monitored Robinson since he founded the EDL in 2009.

“We have to see Tommy within this Bannon foundation. Bannon has been very supportive of him. You cannot really detach Tommy from this wider project,” added Mulhall.

Bannon’s support for the convicted fraudster appears unswerving. After an interview on Nigel Farage’s show on LBC radio – timed to coincide with Trump’s visit to London – Bannon delivered an off-air eulogy to Robinson that described the former UK Pegida leader as “the ****ing backbone of this country”.

That such a prominent figure from the US alt-right might so enthusiastically embrace the 35-year-old from Luton is no surprise. An intricate constellation of alt-right and far-right groups, including America’s largest anti-Muslim organisation and even one of Trump’s senior diplomats, has offered Robinson staunch backing in recent weeks.

Gregg Roman, director of rightwing Philadelphia-based thinktank Middle East Forum (MEF), said Robinson should be lauded for speaking up on sensitive issues linked to the Muslim community. “There is a growing movement to silence anything that people disagree with,” he said. “Our prerogative as an organisation is to protect that discussion, the right to say it.

“His predicament is emblematic of the difference between the American protection of free speech and freedom of the press versus the rather draconian system that’s been implemented in the UK.”

Roman, whose group has paid Robinson’s court defence fees, revealed it had also paid Republican congressman Paul Gosar’s travel costs to the UK on 14 July so he could address a London protest in support of Robinson. Gosar, who did not want to be interviewed for this article, is considered an influential conduit between Bannon’s future operations in London and the Freedom Caucus, the group of pro-Trump, ultra-rightwing Republicans in the US House of Representatives.

 

Gosar told the London crowd – 25 times the size of the Birmingham Pegida march – that he could no longer “stay silent” on the jailing of Robinson.

Many feel similarly energised. More than 630,000 have signed an online petition for Robinson to be freed, its international reach articulated by its translation into French, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Polish, Czech and Russian. Analysis of signatories by Hope not Hate found only 68% came from the UK, while 35% of Twitter posts using a “Free Tommy” hashtag analysed by the group came from the United States.

Robinson’s resurgence, says Mulhall, can be neatly traced to the chaotic aftermath of the March 2017 Westminster terror attack. Accompanied by a film crew from Canadian far-right platform The Rebel Media, Robinson rushed to the scene and began to fulminate into the camera that Britain was “at war” with Islamic fundamentalists.

Although accused of exploiting the tragedy, his sentiments struck a chord with a sizeable minority. The footage has been watched more than 1.7m times on YouTube. The Rebel Media offered him a position, boosting his North American profile. But Robinson’s true ingenuity, according to Ford, was mixing his rough diamond personality with the mantra that the UK establishment was out to censor him because he dared to speak the truth.

“This is exactly the argument they like,” said Ford, “because it means they can say, ‘we’re the truly brave liberals’. The degree to which it has gone viral as an argument shows this is a winner for the radical right. It strongly motivates their core electorate.” Robinson’s imprisonment buttressed the message, allowing him to present himself as a “martyr for truth”.

“If he sticks to that line I can imagine a lot of far-right outfits wanting to make use of that. He could find himself perpetually on tour to whichever country has an election,” added Ford.

Roman, whose colleague Daniel Pipes at the MEF floated the unfounded claim that there were “no-go” zones in largely Muslim areas of Europe, described Robinson as a symbol of the struggle to speak the unspeakable. “He’s the emblem of an individual who’s tried to – as an advocate or journalist who has transcended his grassroots days – highlight the plight of victims. This is to do with his ability to articulate viewpoints without facing penalties,” said Roman.

 

It is an argument that has electrified the US far right. Recently, the US’s largest anti-Muslim organisation, ACT! for America, emailed its 750,000 members, outlining the “battle for free speech in Europe, specifically England”, around the Robinson case. Another influential Robinson supporter has been the far-right Texas-based conspiracy theorist website Infowars, which receives around 10m monthly visits. Alex Jones, who runs the site, calls Robinson a “political prisoner”. One Infowars piece, published by the Gatestone Institute, an anti-Muslim thinktank, articulates the US-UK alliance over Robinson. A prominent fellow of the Gatestone Institute is Raheem Kassam, London editor for rightwing website Breitbart when Bannon was its executive chairman.

Other pro-Robinson US figures include Pamela Geller, an anti-Muslim blogger banned from the UK, and Donald Trump Jr, who messaged nearly 3 million Twitter followers that jailing Robinson was another reason “for the original #brexit”. The reference to Brexit is germane to exploring the trajectory of the future transatlantic alignment of the far right. The day before Trump’s arrival in London on 12 July Bannon met rightwing luminaries at a Mayfair hotel, including Louis Aliot, partner of France’s National Rally leader Marine Le Pen, and Ben Harris-Quinney, chairman of the UK’s oldest conservative thinktank, the Bow Group. Although Harris-Quinney told the Observer they did not discuss Robinson, Bannon clearly had his eye on Britain’s exit from the EU and discussed “the current state of the Brexit process” following the Chequers proposal.

Ford believes fallout from the Brexit deal will help the far right make a real incursion into UK politics. He calculated that around 20% of the electorate hold a Ukip worldview, of which around half might be seduced by the xenophobic, Islamophobic vision of a Bannon/Robinson alliance. “That’s still 10% of the electorate – a lot of voters,” he said.

Brexit offered an opportunity to vastly increase numbers, added Ford. “We were promised a national renewal project and all we got was this crappy T-shirt from Boris Johnson,” he said. If a radical-right movement harnessed the power of a Robinson, or Farage, with adequate funding and credible candidates, it could make significant inroads. “There are formidable barriers to entry for new parties. One is getting any kind of attention, and figures like Robinson and Farage are valuable for that.”

If Robinson is released this week, his value to the international far right may soon be underlined.

 

August 2009

Robinson founds and becomes leader of the anti-Muslim English Defence League (EDL)

October 2013

Resigns from the EDL, claiming he has concerns over the “dangers of far-right extremism”

February 2016

Launches Pegida UK, British offshoot of the German anti-immigration organisation

February 2017

Becomes correspondent for rightwing Canadian outfit Rebel Media

May 2018

Sentenced to 13 months’ imprisonment for contempt of court

 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

16 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

#FreeTommy – the making of a far-right English ‘martyr’

A jail term has made the ex-English Defence League leader Tommy Robinson a US-backed ‘victim of the liberal elite’

 

As the rain fell on 6 February 2016, Tommy Robinson led a small crowd through an industrial estate on the edge of Birmingham. It was the launch event of Pegida UK, the anti-Islam outfit founded by Robinson. Fewer than 200 supporters turned up. Undeterred, he outlined the group’s pan-European ambitions. No other marches would follow.

Robinson had hit rock bottom. His other venture, the virulently Islamophobic English Defence League, had fractured and declined two years earlier. So low was his stock that anti-fascist organisations had stopped taking him seriously.

Fast forward 30 months and that stock has seen an extraordinary, and unsettling, rise. Robinson – real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon – is now positioned as a superstar of the international radical right, a global “martyr” for free speech and a lightning rod through which the far right intends to wage its struggle to protect “traditional” western freedoms from the perceived foes of Islam and liberal democracy.

 

It was his 13-month prison sentence for contempt of court in May that, according to Rob Ford, professor of politics at the University of Manchester, cemented Robinson’s journey from fringe player to occupying “a valuable niche in the radical-right ecosystem”.

This week the court of appeal will deliver its judgment on whether Robinson should be released from prison immediately. If it rules in his favour, the Observer has been told, his newfound liberty may well be celebrated with a key position within the new rightwing European populist foundation, called The Movement, being planned by Steve Bannon.

Donald Trump’s former White House adviser wants The Movement to focus its efforts on the European parliament elections next spring, as well as the post-Brexit landscape in the UK, where he anticipates being able to exploit the disaffection of millions of Leave voters in the event of a deal they feel is not what they voted for. A high-profile figure with a sizeable rightwing fanbase will be required to lead the fight. That figure, some say, will be Robinson.

 

“It’s his if he wants it. He’s the key figure, the most charismatic. He’ll come out of prison as a superstar, especially in North America. He’ll be on Fox News, everywhere. It’ll be a massive few weeks for him,” said Joe Mulhall of Hope not Hate, which has monitored Robinson since he founded the EDL in 2009.

“We have to see Tommy within this Bannon foundation. Bannon has been very supportive of him. You cannot really detach Tommy from this wider project,” added Mulhall.

Bannon’s support for the convicted fraudster appears unswerving. After an interview on Nigel Farage’s show on LBC radio – timed to coincide with Trump’s visit to London – Bannon delivered an off-air eulogy to Robinson that described the former UK Pegida leader as “the ****ing backbone of this country”.

That such a prominent figure from the US alt-right might so enthusiastically embrace the 35-year-old from Luton is no surprise. An intricate constellation of alt-right and far-right groups, including America’s largest anti-Muslim organisation and even one of Trump’s senior diplomats, has offered Robinson staunch backing in recent weeks.

Gregg Roman, director of rightwing Philadelphia-based thinktank Middle East Forum (MEF), said Robinson should be lauded for speaking up on sensitive issues linked to the Muslim community. “There is a growing movement to silence anything that people disagree with,” he said. “Our prerogative as an organisation is to protect that discussion, the right to say it.

“His predicament is emblematic of the difference between the American protection of free speech and freedom of the press versus the rather draconian system that’s been implemented in the UK.”

Roman, whose group has paid Robinson’s court defence fees, revealed it had also paid Republican congressman Paul Gosar’s travel costs to the UK on 14 July so he could address a London protest in support of Robinson. Gosar, who did not want to be interviewed for this article, is considered an influential conduit between Bannon’s future operations in London and the Freedom Caucus, the group of pro-Trump, ultra-rightwing Republicans in the US House of Representatives.

 

Gosar told the London crowd – 25 times the size of the Birmingham Pegida march – that he could no longer “stay silent” on the jailing of Robinson.

Many feel similarly energised. More than 630,000 have signed an online petition for Robinson to be freed, its international reach articulated by its translation into French, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Polish, Czech and Russian. Analysis of signatories by Hope not Hate found only 68% came from the UK, while 35% of Twitter posts using a “Free Tommy” hashtag analysed by the group came from the United States.

Robinson’s resurgence, says Mulhall, can be neatly traced to the chaotic aftermath of the March 2017 Westminster terror attack. Accompanied by a film crew from Canadian far-right platform The Rebel Media, Robinson rushed to the scene and began to fulminate into the camera that Britain was “at war” with Islamic fundamentalists.

Although accused of exploiting the tragedy, his sentiments struck a chord with a sizeable minority. The footage has been watched more than 1.7m times on YouTube. The Rebel Media offered him a position, boosting his North American profile. But Robinson’s true ingenuity, according to Ford, was mixing his rough diamond personality with the mantra that the UK establishment was out to censor him because he dared to speak the truth.

“This is exactly the argument they like,” said Ford, “because it means they can say, ‘we’re the truly brave liberals’. The degree to which it has gone viral as an argument shows this is a winner for the radical right. It strongly motivates their core electorate.” Robinson’s imprisonment buttressed the message, allowing him to present himself as a “martyr for truth”.

“If he sticks to that line I can imagine a lot of far-right outfits wanting to make use of that. He could find himself perpetually on tour to whichever country has an election,” added Ford.

Roman, whose colleague Daniel Pipes at the MEF floated the unfounded claim that there were “no-go” zones in largely Muslim areas of Europe, described Robinson as a symbol of the struggle to speak the unspeakable. “He’s the emblem of an individual who’s tried to – as an advocate or journalist who has transcended his grassroots days – highlight the plight of victims. This is to do with his ability to articulate viewpoints without facing penalties,” said Roman.

 

It is an argument that has electrified the US far right. Recently, the US’s largest anti-Muslim organisation, ACT! for America, emailed its 750,000 members, outlining the “battle for free speech in Europe, specifically England”, around the Robinson case. Another influential Robinson supporter has been the far-right Texas-based conspiracy theorist website Infowars, which receives around 10m monthly visits. Alex Jones, who runs the site, calls Robinson a “political prisoner”. One Infowars piece, published by the Gatestone Institute, an anti-Muslim thinktank, articulates the US-UK alliance over Robinson. A prominent fellow of the Gatestone Institute is Raheem Kassam, London editor for rightwing website Breitbart when Bannon was its executive chairman.

Other pro-Robinson US figures include Pamela Geller, an anti-Muslim blogger banned from the UK, and Donald Trump Jr, who messaged nearly 3 million Twitter followers that jailing Robinson was another reason “for the original #brexit”. The reference to Brexit is germane to exploring the trajectory of the future transatlantic alignment of the far right. The day before Trump’s arrival in London on 12 July Bannon met rightwing luminaries at a Mayfair hotel, including Louis Aliot, partner of France’s National Rally leader Marine Le Pen, and Ben Harris-Quinney, chairman of the UK’s oldest conservative thinktank, the Bow Group. Although Harris-Quinney told the Observer they did not discuss Robinson, Bannon clearly had his eye on Britain’s exit from the EU and discussed “the current state of the Brexit process” following the Chequers proposal.

Ford believes fallout from the Brexit deal will help the far right make a real incursion into UK politics. He calculated that around 20% of the electorate hold a Ukip worldview, of which around half might be seduced by the xenophobic, Islamophobic vision of a Bannon/Robinson alliance. “That’s still 10% of the electorate – a lot of voters,” he said.

Brexit offered an opportunity to vastly increase numbers, added Ford. “We were promised a national renewal project and all we got was this crappy T-shirt from Boris Johnson,” he said. If a radical-right movement harnessed the power of a Robinson, or Farage, with adequate funding and credible candidates, it could make significant inroads. “There are formidable barriers to entry for new parties. One is getting any kind of attention, and figures like Robinson and Farage are valuable for that.”

If Robinson is released this week, his value to the international far right may soon be underlined.

 

August 2009

Robinson founds and becomes leader of the anti-Muslim English Defence League (EDL)

October 2013

Resigns from the EDL, claiming he has concerns over the “dangers of far-right extremism”

February 2016

Launches Pegida UK, British offshoot of the German anti-immigration organisation

February 2017

Becomes correspondent for rightwing Canadian outfit Rebel Media

May 2018

Sentenced to 13 months’ imprisonment for contempt of court

 

I hate saying this sort of thing online as I cant stand the keyboard warrior thing but I would absolutely love to kick the fvck out of Tommy Robinson.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

#FreeTommy – the making of a far-right English ‘martyr’

A jail term has made the ex-English Defence League leader Tommy Robinson a US-backed ‘victim of the liberal elite’

 

As the rain fell on 6 February 2016, Tommy Robinson led a small crowd through an industrial estate on the edge of Birmingham. It was the launch event of Pegida UK, the anti-Islam outfit founded by Robinson. Fewer than 200 supporters turned up. Undeterred, he outlined the group’s pan-European ambitions. No other marches would follow.

Robinson had hit rock bottom. His other venture, the virulently Islamophobic English Defence League, had fractured and declined two years earlier. So low was his stock that anti-fascist organisations had stopped taking him seriously.

Fast forward 30 months and that stock has seen an extraordinary, and unsettling, rise. Robinson – real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon – is now positioned as a superstar of the international radical right, a global “martyr” for free speech and a lightning rod through which the far right intends to wage its struggle to protect “traditional” western freedoms from the perceived foes of Islam and liberal democracy.

 

It was his 13-month prison sentence for contempt of court in May that, according to Rob Ford, professor of politics at the University of Manchester, cemented Robinson’s journey from fringe player to occupying “a valuable niche in the radical-right ecosystem”.

This week the court of appeal will deliver its judgment on whether Robinson should be released from prison immediately. If it rules in his favour, the Observer has been told, his newfound liberty may well be celebrated with a key position within the new rightwing European populist foundation, called The Movement, being planned by Steve Bannon.

Donald Trump’s former White House adviser wants The Movement to focus its efforts on the European parliament elections next spring, as well as the post-Brexit landscape in the UK, where he anticipates being able to exploit the disaffection of millions of Leave voters in the event of a deal they feel is not what they voted for. A high-profile figure with a sizeable rightwing fanbase will be required to lead the fight. That figure, some say, will be Robinson.

 

“It’s his if he wants it. He’s the key figure, the most charismatic. He’ll come out of prison as a superstar, especially in North America. He’ll be on Fox News, everywhere. It’ll be a massive few weeks for him,” said Joe Mulhall of Hope not Hate, which has monitored Robinson since he founded the EDL in 2009.

“We have to see Tommy within this Bannon foundation. Bannon has been very supportive of him. You cannot really detach Tommy from this wider project,” added Mulhall.

Bannon’s support for the convicted fraudster appears unswerving. After an interview on Nigel Farage’s show on LBC radio – timed to coincide with Trump’s visit to London – Bannon delivered an off-air eulogy to Robinson that described the former UK Pegida leader as “the ****ing backbone of this country”.

That such a prominent figure from the US alt-right might so enthusiastically embrace the 35-year-old from Luton is no surprise. An intricate constellation of alt-right and far-right groups, including America’s largest anti-Muslim organisation and even one of Trump’s senior diplomats, has offered Robinson staunch backing in recent weeks.

Gregg Roman, director of rightwing Philadelphia-based thinktank Middle East Forum (MEF), said Robinson should be lauded for speaking up on sensitive issues linked to the Muslim community. “There is a growing movement to silence anything that people disagree with,” he said. “Our prerogative as an organisation is to protect that discussion, the right to say it.

“His predicament is emblematic of the difference between the American protection of free speech and freedom of the press versus the rather draconian system that’s been implemented in the UK.”

Roman, whose group has paid Robinson’s court defence fees, revealed it had also paid Republican congressman Paul Gosar’s travel costs to the UK on 14 July so he could address a London protest in support of Robinson. Gosar, who did not want to be interviewed for this article, is considered an influential conduit between Bannon’s future operations in London and the Freedom Caucus, the group of pro-Trump, ultra-rightwing Republicans in the US House of Representatives.

 

Gosar told the London crowd – 25 times the size of the Birmingham Pegida march – that he could no longer “stay silent” on the jailing of Robinson.

Many feel similarly energised. More than 630,000 have signed an online petition for Robinson to be freed, its international reach articulated by its translation into French, Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Polish, Czech and Russian. Analysis of signatories by Hope not Hate found only 68% came from the UK, while 35% of Twitter posts using a “Free Tommy” hashtag analysed by the group came from the United States.

Robinson’s resurgence, says Mulhall, can be neatly traced to the chaotic aftermath of the March 2017 Westminster terror attack. Accompanied by a film crew from Canadian far-right platform The Rebel Media, Robinson rushed to the scene and began to fulminate into the camera that Britain was “at war” with Islamic fundamentalists.

Although accused of exploiting the tragedy, his sentiments struck a chord with a sizeable minority. The footage has been watched more than 1.7m times on YouTube. The Rebel Media offered him a position, boosting his North American profile. But Robinson’s true ingenuity, according to Ford, was mixing his rough diamond personality with the mantra that the UK establishment was out to censor him because he dared to speak the truth.

“This is exactly the argument they like,” said Ford, “because it means they can say, ‘we’re the truly brave liberals’. The degree to which it has gone viral as an argument shows this is a winner for the radical right. It strongly motivates their core electorate.” Robinson’s imprisonment buttressed the message, allowing him to present himself as a “martyr for truth”.

“If he sticks to that line I can imagine a lot of far-right outfits wanting to make use of that. He could find himself perpetually on tour to whichever country has an election,” added Ford.

Roman, whose colleague Daniel Pipes at the MEF floated the unfounded claim that there were “no-go” zones in largely Muslim areas of Europe, described Robinson as a symbol of the struggle to speak the unspeakable. “He’s the emblem of an individual who’s tried to – as an advocate or journalist who has transcended his grassroots days – highlight the plight of victims. This is to do with his ability to articulate viewpoints without facing penalties,” said Roman.

 

It is an argument that has electrified the US far right. Recently, the US’s largest anti-Muslim organisation, ACT! for America, emailed its 750,000 members, outlining the “battle for free speech in Europe, specifically England”, around the Robinson case. Another influential Robinson supporter has been the far-right Texas-based conspiracy theorist website Infowars, which receives around 10m monthly visits. Alex Jones, who runs the site, calls Robinson a “political prisoner”. One Infowars piece, published by the Gatestone Institute, an anti-Muslim thinktank, articulates the US-UK alliance over Robinson. A prominent fellow of the Gatestone Institute is Raheem Kassam, London editor for rightwing website Breitbart when Bannon was its executive chairman.

Other pro-Robinson US figures include Pamela Geller, an anti-Muslim blogger banned from the UK, and Donald Trump Jr, who messaged nearly 3 million Twitter followers that jailing Robinson was another reason “for the original #brexit”. The reference to Brexit is germane to exploring the trajectory of the future transatlantic alignment of the far right. The day before Trump’s arrival in London on 12 July Bannon met rightwing luminaries at a Mayfair hotel, including Louis Aliot, partner of France’s National Rally leader Marine Le Pen, and Ben Harris-Quinney, chairman of the UK’s oldest conservative thinktank, the Bow Group. Although Harris-Quinney told the Observer they did not discuss Robinson, Bannon clearly had his eye on Britain’s exit from the EU and discussed “the current state of the Brexit process” following the Chequers proposal.

Ford believes fallout from the Brexit deal will help the far right make a real incursion into UK politics. He calculated that around 20% of the electorate hold a Ukip worldview, of which around half might be seduced by the xenophobic, Islamophobic vision of a Bannon/Robinson alliance. “That’s still 10% of the electorate – a lot of voters,” he said.

Brexit offered an opportunity to vastly increase numbers, added Ford. “We were promised a national renewal project and all we got was this crappy T-shirt from Boris Johnson,” he said. If a radical-right movement harnessed the power of a Robinson, or Farage, with adequate funding and credible candidates, it could make significant inroads. “There are formidable barriers to entry for new parties. One is getting any kind of attention, and figures like Robinson and Farage are valuable for that.”

If Robinson is released this week, his value to the international far right may soon be underlined.

 

August 2009

Robinson founds and becomes leader of the anti-Muslim English Defence League (EDL)

October 2013

Resigns from the EDL, claiming he has concerns over the “dangers of far-right extremism”

February 2016

Launches Pegida UK, British offshoot of the German anti-immigration organisation

February 2017

Becomes correspondent for rightwing Canadian outfit Rebel Media

May 2018

Sentenced to 13 months’ imprisonment for contempt of court

 

When are people going to take the US alt-right and the way they are extending into Europe seriously?

 

When the bodies start piling up?

[Guest Kopfkino]

10 hours ago, Strokes said:

This is the sort of thing that will result in me voting Labour at the next election. Cost cutting on national projects, to award contracts to companies not paying into our economy, makes no sense to me. It’s completely against any logic I understand. Hopefully they will see sense. 

 

It's a really simple concept, do what you're good at and static efficiency.

Edited 29 July 2018 by Kopfkino

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

When are people going to take the US alt-right and the way they are extending into Europe seriously?

 

When the bodies start piling up?

When people start recognising what is causing it.

People who for years have voiced concerns about mass immigration,  have been branded racists, is it any wonder they are easily manipulated by the people telling them it’s not wrong to feel the way they do?

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

When people start recognising what is causing it.

People who for years have voiced concerns about mass immigration,  have been branded racists, is it any wonder they are easily manipulated by the people telling them it’s not wrong to feel the way they do?

I think we've discussed this before - the concerns may well be legitimate and they may well be subject to manipulation from nefarious sources and there should be more empathy towards that and the manipulators themselves do take a lot of the blame (like any hate preacher really), but at the same time no one, no matter how desperate or unlistened to, gets a free pass for agreeing with neofascists on any matter and allowing them to gain more power, not when what comes with it is well-known and documented.

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

When people start recognising what is causing it.

People who for years have voiced concerns about mass immigration,  have been branded racists, is it any wonder they are easily manipulated by the people telling them it’s not wrong to feel the way they do?

 

I agree to an extent but unfortunately, many of those who voice their concerns are racist and they seem to be the ones who shout loudest which leads to anyone with legitimate concerns (yourself, for example) being judged by the company they keep.

[Sharpe's Fox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

When are people going to take the US alt-right and the way they are extending into Europe seriously?

 

When the bodies start piling up?

When liberals start to support the movement for Labour rather than Capital. Only the Left can keep fascism at bay.

[breadandcheese]

Just now, Sharpe's Fox said:

When liberals start to support the movement for Labour rather than Capital. Only the Left can keep fascism at bay.

The far left is just as authoritarian as the far right

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

The far left is just as authoritarian as the far right

People need to stop equating labour with communism. It is neither right, nor okay, to claim that labour are far left and so the equivalent of the alt-right. Most of the labour programme was mainstream centre policy 30 years ago. Politics has veered rightward since then. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

The far left is just as authoritarian as the far right

Social democracy is a dead ideology. Why would anyone vote for the political equivalent of Waitrose when the world looks like 28 Days Later?

[Buce]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

People need to stop equating labour with communism. It is neither right, nor okay, to claim that labour are far left and so the equivalent of the alt-right. Most of the labour programme was mainstream centre policy 30 years ago. Politics has veered rightward since then. 

 

Tbf, he didn't.

 

The far left is as bad as the extreme right but Labour isn't far left.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

People need to stop equating labour with communism. It is neither right, nor okay, to claim that labour are far left and so the equivalent of the alt-right. Most of the labour programme was mainstream centre policy 30 years ago. Politics has veered rightward since then. 

The sad thing about the Overton Window is it's very difficult to tell when it shifts, as it relies entirely on peoples perception.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

The sad thing about the Overton Window is it's very difficult to tell when it shifts, as it relies entirely on peoples perception.

It shifted in 1979 and stayed shifted imo. Perhaps has moved even further rightwards due to concerns around immigration over the last 10-15 years. 

The manipulation of the immigration debate to involve it into practically every area of politics has shown how easily a population can fall into the trap of dehumanising entire communities. 

Both economically and socially we've been led blindly down a very dark path.

[Sharpe's Fox]

just to be clear lads I am advocating hard socialism.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Social democracy is a dead ideology. Why would anyone vote for the political equivalent of Waitrose when the world looks like 28 Days Later?

Sorry Sharpey but not entirely sure full Tankie is the right answer either.

 

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

It shifted in 1979 and stayed shifted imo. Perhaps has moved even further rightwards due to concerns around immigration over the last 10-15 years. 

The manipulation of the immigration debate to involve it into practically every area of politics has shown how easily a population can fall into the trap of dehumanising entire communities. 

Both economically and socially we've been led blindly down a very dark path.

2

Relative to what? The time before it? The time before that when conservatism was the norm, women stayed at home, people didn't want a ****** for a neighbour and being gay was criminalised?

 

I mean yeah, I know where you're coming from, but it's difficult to convince folks that things have shifted to the right socially when you look at anything but a little patch of history for reference.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Sorry Sharpey but not entirely sure full Tankie is the right answer either.

Keep telling yourself that when a quarter of the jobs we have now are lost to automisation and a new underclass of non workers are “dealt with”. 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Keep telling yourself that when a quarter of the jobs we have now are lost to automisation and a new underclass of non workers are “dealt with”. 

On that day, particularly the second part, feel free to get out the guillotines - still wouldn't want those bringing them out to have all or even most of the power afterwards though, Acton was spot on.

 

TBH I hate any kind of big-style authoritarianism except in matters that concern preserving civilisation long-term (environmental conservation, long-term energy and space projects to meet inevitable further demands) because I know what that kind of power does to people.

[Buce]

21 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Keep telling yourself that when a quarter of the jobs we have now are lost to automisation and a new underclass of non workers are “dealt with”. 

 

I'm certain that some kind of socialism is inevitable.

 

I'm equally certain that the electorate is not yet ready for it.

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Robinson is now positioned as a superstar of the international radical right, a global “martyr” for free speech and a lightning rod through which the far right intends to wage its struggle to protect “traditional” western freedoms from the perceived foes of Islam and liberal democracy. 

 

This week the court of appeal will rule on whether Robinson should be released from prison immediately. If it rules in his favour, the Observer has been told, his newfound liberty may well be celebrated with a key position within the new rightwing European populist foundation, called The Movement, being planned by Steve Bannon.

Donald Trump’s former White House adviser wants The Movement to focus its efforts on the European parliament elections next spring, as well as the post-Brexit landscape in the UK, where he anticipates being able to exploit the disaffection of millions of Leave voters in the event of a deal they feel is not what they voted for. A high-profile figure with a sizeable rightwing fanbase will be required to lead the fight. That figure, some say, will be Robinson.

 

Bannon clearly had his eye on Britain’s exit from the EU and discussed “the current state of the Brexit process” following the Chequers proposal.

Ford believes fallout from the Brexit deal will help the far right make a real incursion into UK politics. He calculated that around 20% of the electorate hold a Ukip worldview, of which around half might be seduced by the xenophobic, Islamophobic vision of a Bannon/Robinson alliance. “That’s still 10% of the electorate – a lot of voters,” he said.

Brexit offered an opportunity to vastly increase numbers, added Ford. “We were promised a national renewal project and all we got was this crappy T-shirt from Boris Johnson,” he said. If a radical-right movement harnessed the power of a Robinson, or Farage, with adequate funding and credible candidates, it could make significant inroads. “There are formidable barriers to entry for new parties. One is getting any kind of attention, and figures like Robinson and Farage are valuable for that.”

If Robinson is released this week, his value to the international far right may soon be underlined.

 

 

These excerpts, particularly the bits in bold, are what mainly concern me.

 

MOST potential outcomes to the Brexit fiasco will cause great anger and disillusionment among a lot of those who voted Leave and who are already discontented with life, offering the Far Right an open goal:

- If there's some sort of "sell-out" Soft Brexit deal 

- If a Hard Brexit/No Deal happens and has the severely negative impact that many expect

- If the referendum result is somehow reversed and we remain in the EU

About the only outcome that doesn't potentially give the Far Right a massive boost is if there's a Hard Brexit/No Deal and it rapidly proves to be the great success that was promised....by far the least likely outcome, in my opinion

 

In case anyone misunderstands me, I'm not saying that Brexit itself is a Far Right cause. It's more that disillusionment with the Brexit outcome could be one of several factors combining to create the perfect environment for the Far Right.

Look back at the environment in which the Nazis became a major force in Germany: perceived national humiliation (WW1 & Versailles Treaty); disastrous economic circumstances / personal hardship (stock market crash, depression, unemployment, low incomes, hyperinflation); discredited mainstream politicians; some handy scapegoats (Jews, in particular); and a charismatic leader.

 

It's not hard to see how that environment could be replicated: a bad Brexit deal or "sell-out" perceived as betrayal/national humiliation; negative economic/social impact on everyday lives due to an economic downturn - when the last decade has been bad enough already with stagnant pay, insecurity, public service cuts. Many already see our mainstream political class as discredited. Muslims are already available as one scapegoat, maybe alongside immigrants, particularly from the EU, if it is partly blamed for a bad outcome. A charismatic leader is about the only missing element. I don't know how wide Tommy Robinson's appeal could be - but certainly wide enough, even if it's mainly limited to those who are struggling and/or angry, and he's articulate enough to present himself as respectable, not just a thug. Farage might have wider reach, but has mainly shied away from the more extreme stuff (I suspect he's partly motivated by being popular). 

 

I don't know how much influence Bannon & co will be able to exert over the Far Right or voters in the UK/EU. But given the cash and expertise at their disposal, it could be quite a lot.

Seriously worrying times - and likely to get a lot more worrying over the next year or so. Anyone who thinks that Nazism is a condition to which the British are immune or a phenomenon from the past needs to think again.

I'm sure it would be different this time (no Hitler moustaches or goosestepping), but it could be seriously unpleasant on a social level - even if it never gains political power....which it might.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

These excerpts, particularly the bits in bold, are what mainly concern me.

 

MOST potential outcomes to the Brexit fiasco will cause great anger and disillusionment among a lot of those who voted Leave and who are already discontented with life, offering the Far Right an open goal:

- If there's some sort of "sell-out" Soft Brexit deal 

- If a Hard Brexit/No Deal happens and has the severely negative impact that many expect

- If the referendum result is somehow reversed and we remain in the EU

About the only outcome that doesn't potentially give the Far Right a massive boost is if there's a Hard Brexit/No Deal and it rapidly proves to be the great success that was promised....by far the least likely outcome, in my opinion

 

In case anyone misunderstands me, I'm not saying that Brexit itself is a Far Right cause. It's more that disillusionment with the Brexit outcome could be one of several factors combining to create the perfect environment for the Far Right.

Look back at the environment in which the Nazis became a major force in Germany: perceived national humiliation (WW1 & Versailles Treaty); disastrous economic circumstances / personal hardship (stock market crash, depression, unemployment, low incomes, hyperinflation); discredited mainstream politicians; some handy scapegoats (Jews, in particular); and a charismatic leader.

 

It's not hard to see how that environment could be replicated: a bad Brexit deal or "sell-out" perceived as betrayal/national humiliation; negative economic/social impact on everyday lives due to an economic downturn - when the last decade has been bad enough already with stagnant pay, insecurity, public service cuts. Many already see our mainstream political class as discredited. Muslims are already available as one scapegoat, maybe alongside immigrants, particularly from the EU, if it is partly blamed for a bad outcome. A charismatic leader is about the only missing element. I don't know how wide Tommy Robinson's appeal could be - but certainly wide enough, even if it's mainly limited to those who are struggling and/or angry, and he's articulate enough to present himself as respectable, not just a thug. Farage might have wider reach, but has mainly shied away from the more extreme stuff (I suspect he's partly motivated by being popular). 

 

I don't know how much influence Bannon & co will be able to exert over the Far Right or voters in the UK/EU. But given the cash and expertise at their disposal, it could be quite a lot.

Seriously worrying times - and likely to get a lot more worrying over the next year or so. Anyone who thinks that Nazism is a condition to which the British are immune or a phenomenon from the past needs to think again.

I'm sure it would be different this time (no Hitler moustaches or goosestepping), but it could be seriously unpleasant on a social level - even if it never gains political power....which it might.

3

The historical parallels aren't quite so stark as to be really frightening just yet IMO...but give it a little time and the circumstances you talk about and that may well become the case.

 

Bolded part is spot on. And in a world as interconnected as ours now is, I don't think it could just be unpleasant on a social level - it has the potential to be genuinely catastrophic, for a variety of reasons.

[SpacedX]

59 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The sad thing about the Overton Window is it's very difficult to tell when it shifts, as it relies entirely on peoples perception.

Which was Trevino's point I think. 

 

It's those outside the window that worry me, or more particularly, window dressing. - on both sides. 

 

Toddy claims that it's time to stop equating the Labour party with communism, why? John McDonnell would be horrified. 

 

Alf has articulated the very real and sickening threats from the far right - the naive assumption that the Labour Party in its current incarnation are a panacea is concerning. Entryism doesn't stop with Momentum simply pulling some strings or some hackneyed rhetoric from the ILP...elements of the hardcore left are very tangible and terrify me. I abhor extremism in any form and although I embrace the passing of consensus system, this increasing polarisation and radicalism on both sides of the broadening political spectrum is ominous. 

[leicsmac]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-28/orban-rallies-europe-s-illiberal-forces-for-2019-elections

 

I'm not entirely sure how much clearer the players or the objective have to be tbh. They're certainly making it clear enough.

[Guest]