Philippe Coutinho v Riyad Mahrez comparison

[Manwell Pablo]

4 hours ago, DelBoy73 said:

Well there's one for you : even Messi would see his end-product stats divided by ten if he was to play in our side, living from scraps in a system which resorts solely to hoofs and Vards chasing lost causes.

 

Lets not exaggerate and pretend we are awful we are 8th in premier league and chasing European football.

[DelBoy73]

1 minute ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Lets not exaggerate and pretend we are awful we are 8th in premier league and chasing European football.

Without the contributions of Mahrez and Vardy ? Mediocre at best and wouldn't rank higher than the relegation fodders, period.

 

[Foxxed]

8 minutes ago, DelBoy73 said:

Without the contributions of Mahrez and Vardy ? Mediocre at best and wouldn't rank higher than the relegation fodders, period.

 

I can't deny this. And I've tried. But two world class players is easily the difference between relegation survival and competing for European football in this league. A third and top class tactics and you're competing for the Champions League.

[Manwell Pablo]

4 hours ago, ScouseFox said:

more goals and more assists this season, and this is a season that 3 months into it we sacked our manager because we were on our way to getting relegated playing depressing football. paint it up how you like, the only reason the fee for mahrez will be a third of that of coutinho is because he plays for us. no other reason for it. mahrez this season, again, a season that he's been "rubbish" in for the first half, has more goals and assists than any of hazard, coutinho, mane, eriksen, alli, sane, the same as de bruyne, more than any united player bar lukaku, the list goes on and on, you can compare just this season, you can compare since we got promoted, whatever you like. he is worth so much more than 50 million pounds. 

 

liverpool will want to pay a similar amount for mahrez as they did for oxlade-chamberlain. mahrez has scored more goals in 4 months than the ox has since 2012. but he came from arsenal, not leicester. 

 

Id say the main reason Behind the difference in fee is the coutinho fee itself is hugely inflated and not really his market value and like I've already said I believe we've set the 50 million pound value ourselves. All I've said is coutinho is the better player which he is. The game at anfield was a prime example, mahrez may have setup a goal and added another notch on those stats a lot of people like to use but countinho linked up with the rest of his side for the entire game and their front four terrorised us for pretty much the entire game and they won the game as a direct result, while Mahrez and the rest of our attack offered relatively little, they should of won by a lot more. Maybe Mahrez could do a similar job if surrounded by better team mates but it's pure conjecture.

 

look do not get me wrong the lad on his day is electric, one of the best I've seen pull the shirt on, and can beat teams in the bottom half by himself sometimes. he just isn't as rounded a player or consistent a player as the very best for me. It bemuses me, if the case is that he is an utter steel at 50 million and we are being ripped off, why no club in world football has stuck a bid in that's even close. 

 

We we are effectively claiming the fee no one wants to pay is too little surely that's ridiculous? Surely he's only worth what someone is willing to pay?

Edited 7 January 2018 by Manwell Pablo

[ScouseFox]

2 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Id say the main reason Behind the difference in fee is the coutinho fee itself is hugely inflated and not really his market value and like I've already said I believe we've set the 50 million pound value ourselves. All I've said is coutinho is the better player which he is. The game at anfield was a prime example, mahrez may have setup a goal and added another notch on those stats a lot of people like to use but countinho linked up with the rest of his side for the entire game and their front four terrorised us for pretty much the entire game and they won the game as a direct result, while Mahrez and the rest of our attack offered relatively little, they should of won by a lot more. Maybe Mahrez could do a similar job if surrounded by better team mates but it's pure conjecture.

 

look do not get me wrong the lad on his day is electric, one of the best I've seen pull the shirt on, and can beat teams in the bottom half by himself sometimes. he just isn't as rounded a player or consistent a player as the very best for me. It bemuses me, if the case is that he is an utter steel at 50 million and we are being ripped off, why no club in world football has stuck a bid in that's even close. 

mental argument to say that coutinho, playing for liverpool, looked better in the game at anfield than mahrez did playing for us. mahrez touched the ball about once and set up a goal, too. 

 

hes worth more to us than 50 million pounds, he’s a lot better than most the average muck being swapped all round the world for 40 mill in the last few years. 

[Manwell Pablo]

10 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

mental argument to say that coutinho, playing for liverpool, looked better in the game at anfield than mahrez did playing for us. mahrez touched the ball about once and set up a goal, too. 

 

hes worth more to us than 50 million pounds, he’s a lot better than most the average muck being swapped all round the world for 40 mill in the last few years. 

 

we can use the game at the king power as another example if you prefer. It's far from the only example courtinho looks rather good for most of the game  most weeks, maherz is much more inconsistent, if your truly expecting a similar 142 million fee you've got to be looking at him to link with supposedly the best striker in the league outside of the top six an extremely talented youngster and offer at least some sort of response in a scenario like that anyway. Salah literally could have had 5 or 6 goals.

 

id agree, a lot of the other average muck isn't desperate to get out though, if he's had a bit of a change of heart since declaring he was definitely leaving and spending and entire day at Charles De Guele maybe we can look at getting more.

Edited 7 January 2018 by Manwell Pablo

[Manwell Pablo]

47 minutes ago, DelBoy73 said:

Without the contributions of Mahrez and Vardy ? Mediocre at best and wouldn't rank higher than the relegation fodders, period.

 

 

Thats an irrelevant straw man arguement though isn't it. I think it's a bit of a far cry between saying someone isn't quite as good as Phillip coutinho to saying he doesn't obviously contribute to what we've achieved here and where we are in the league, we have a lot of good attacking players that's why we score a lot of of goals. If we could sort it out at the other end we'd quite possibly cope without him reasonably well although you'd like to think if he does go we'd be in the market for at least a reasonable replacement.

[Clever Fox]

I'm a big Fan of Courtino always have been. But I do think Mahrez has the potential to go on and be even greater player. He already had attributes that Courtino will never possess.

[the fox]

since when did coutinho became this model of consistency? he improved in the last year and a half but still, let's not act like he performs game in, game out.

an overlooked attribute is health. mahrez never gets injured compaired to coutinho. 

i always say, your best ability is availability

[the fox]

a thing i talked about before and is a prevalent point in the NBA is:

 

high floor vs high ceiling!

 

there are players that you plug in any team and they will perform. the biggest example is kante, those players have the ability to overwhelm no matter the teammates. said players are labeled under "high floor".

they don't necessarily demand a system. sure, a system will help, but it isn't the be-all end-all. the main example in the NBA is KD, a human cheat code who can do anything on the floor while being a 7 footer (give or take).

 

now the high ceiling: the players that need a system and a "floor". a high floor will prompt a higher ceiling! this is mahrez. an engine without a turbo is still an engine, but a turbo alone is useless.

 

 the thing is, the high ceiling players are the ones that push you to the next level. better circumstances will allow for better output. 

 

sure, there are the "outlier" players, the once in a 100 years. they step into the floor/pitch and suck the air right out. those you call the "system". we have messi in football and lebron james in basketball. they don't play for the team, the team plays for them

 

imo, mahrez depends on the quality of football, in the ideal situation, i would take mahrez over coutinho 8 out of 10 times. 

Edited 8 January 2018 by the fox

[Countryfox]

20 minutes ago, the fox said:

a thing i talked about before and is a prevalent point in the NBA is:

 

high floor vs high ceiling!

 

there are players that you plug in any team and they will perform. the biggest example is kante, those players have the ability to overwhelm no matter the teammates. said players are labeled under "high floor".

they don't necessarily demand a system. sure, a system will help, but it isn't the be-all end-all. the main example in the NBA is KD, a human cheat code who can do anything on the floor while being a 7 footer (give or take).

 

now the high ceiling: the players that need a system and a "floor". a high floor will prompt a higher ceiling! this is mahrez. an engine without a turbo is still an engine, but a turbo alone is useless.

 

 the thing is, the high ceiling players are the ones that push you to the next level. better circumstances will allow for better output. 

 

sure, there are the "outlier" players, the once in a 100 years. they step into the floor/pitch and suck the air right out. those you call the "system". we have messi in football and lebron james in basketball. they don't play for the team, the team plays for them

 

imo, mahrez depends on the quality of football, in the ideal situation, i would take mahrez over coutinho 8 out of 10 times. 

What are you on about Foxy ??!? ...   high floors and high ceilings ?,. ...   engines with or without turbos !.,. ...  high floors prompting high ceilings !., ...  never heard anything like it before in my life ! ...   and I’ve been playing and watching football since I was off the tit.  And what the bejabbers is an outlier who sucks all the air out !!  ...   sounds like one of those nasty aliens off Star Trek !,

 

Have you been smoking one of those big Algerian pipe things ? ...   off to bed and we’ll talk again in the morning when your heads cleared ...   

[Donut]

When you look purely on a stats basis i think it suggests a reliance to use mahrez as a main source of creativity in our side. Whereas coutinho is one player amongst a side that can collectively create and score more. 

 

Weve certainly seen mahrez can be as effective, perhaps even more so than coutinho at the top of his game. But weve also seen coutinho show a better level of consistency in form over a number of seasons.

 

Coutinho also displays to me a better level of professionalism. He lets the football do the talking most often.

 

Both are extremely gifted and should we sell mahrez, id want an enormous fee. Im talking at least 70m surely. At least.

[the fox]

Just now, Donut said:

When you look purely on a stats basis i think it suggests a reliance to use mahrez as a main source of creativity in our side. Whereas coutinho is one player amongst a side that can collectively create and score more. 

 

Weve certainly seen mahrez can be as effective, perhaps even more so than coutinho at the top of his game. But weve also seen coutinho show a better level of consistency in form over a number of seasons.

 

Coutinho also displays to me a better level of professionalism. He lets the football do the talking most often.

 

Both are extremely gifted and should we sell mahrez, id want an enormous fee. Im talking at least 70m surely. At least.

 

opposed to mahrez who refused to play for the team?

is that the same coutinho who gets "injured" whenever the transfer window is open?

[The Doctor]

11 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

We we are effectively claiming the fee no one wants to pay is too little surely that's ridiculous? Surely he's only worth what someone is willing to pay?

Depends how we're considering value. We lost kante for 30m, and because of the release clause did well to get that, but that doesn't mean he was worth 30m, far more than that. Likewise if a club came in for Vardy, what would they offer? Definitely not in the Lukaku/Morata range, but to us he's got to be worth at least that much, given how crucial he is to us as a team. There's what people are willing to pay, and what they're worth to us. I would say Mahrez to us is worth 80odd, particularly in this market. We might have already compromised with him, but if clubs see an unsettled player, they're gonna keep bartering low to see if they player will try and force his way out - not gonna come in straight at asking price.

[Donut]

2 minutes ago, the fox said:

 

opposed to mahrez who refused to play for the team?

is that the same coutinho who gets "injured" whenever the transfer window is open?

No but mahrez has bigger peaks and troughs in form. Ranieri's second season mahrez was significantly less effective, when the going was bad.

 

Coutinho however seems to handle changes and maintain a consistent level of form.

 

Similarly not getting his move in the summer he has got his head down and continued to play well, knowing this will gain him the move eventually. 

 

No reactions, no trying to force a move.

 

Its refreshing to see i think. 

 

Theyre both top quality.

[Leeds Fox]

12 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

we can use the game at the king power as another example if you prefer. It's far from the only example courtinho looks rather good for most of the game  most weeks, maherz is much more inconsistent, if your truly expecting a similar 142 million fee you've got to be looking at him to link with supposedly the best striker in the league outside of the top six an extremely talented youngster and offer at least some sort of response in a scenario like that anyway. Salah literally could have had 5 or 6 goals.

 

id agree, a lot of the other average muck isn't desperate to get out though, if he's had a bit of a change of heart since declaring he was definitely leaving and spending and entire day at Charles De Guele maybe we can look at getting more.

 

Who’re Courtinho and Maherz? 

[Shanghai]

Price doesn’t matter guys having Mahrez playing for Leicester worth 100 times watching Cotiniho or Messi playing for Barca ! After all who cares about Messi ? He is not Leicester player  Mahrez is Leicester player ( money doesn’t make the value of the player for the club ) most expensive player in the world is playing in the Chinese league is that making you watching the Chinese league ? Mahrez is good very good and we enjoying him for one million or 100 millions  

[Manwell Pablo]

2 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Depends how we're considering value. We lost kante for 30m, and because of the release clause did well to get that, but that doesn't mean he was worth 30m, far more than that. Likewise if a club came in for Vardy, what would they offer? Definitely not in the Lukaku/Morata range, but to us he's got to be worth at least that much, given how crucial he is to us as a team. There's what people are willing to pay, and what they're worth to us. I would say Mahrez to us is worth 80odd, particularly in this market. We might have already compromised with him, but if clubs see an unsettled player, they're gonna keep bartering low to see if they player will try and force his way out - not gonna come in straight at asking price.

 

A release clause is obviously a completely different matter. 

 

Vardy would be a difficult one compared to those two as he's a lot older and more reliant on an attribute you would expect to fade before long and for that reason he'd perhaps not be worth what those two are to us or other clubs long term.... Surely if someone came in with that amount as an offer you'd consider taking it and reinvesting it bearing his age in mind though?

 

Anyway this is all much of a muchness I am by no means saying we should sell for 50 million or that's it's good business people seem to be misinterpreting my point which is if Mahrez was clearly a snip at that price someone, somewhere, would probably have taken us up on the offer while they had a chance. We haven't even had a serious bid over 30 million, admittedly that could be changing imminently.  There are people in here seriously suggesting he is as good a player as Coutinho my simple point is I am afraid he is not, I realise that may make me sound slightly insane to some of the blue tinted (and green and white tinted) brigade on here but away from this website I'd not be the one holding the unpopular opinion. 

Edited 8 January 2018 by Manwell Pablo

[Munshi]

22 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Difference is Barca actively wants one player while the other sulks in airport with his phone in his hand like a little kid on Christmas Day whose father went out for a pack of fags 5 years ago.

He didn't though did he? He knew bids were coming in for him and he had to be at the airport incase one of them was accepted.

 

Coutinho = long shot merchant

[Munshi]

15 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Lets not exaggerate and pretend we are awful we are 8th in premier league and chasing European football.

We do play some awful football at times though, especially away from home recently. If a team puts pressure on our back four we're resorting to aimless hoofs again and our forwards are probably tired of it.

[Manwell Pablo]

Just now, Foxin hell said:

We do play some awful football at times though, especially away from home recently. If a team puts pressure on our back four we're resorting to aimless hoofs again and our forwards are probably tired of it.

This tends to happen when we are playing teams that are better than us.

 

Or Fleetwood Town. 

[MC Prussian]

They are similar players, about the same age, both with a Premier League background.

 

As for the "availability" argument, it's a bit a no-brainer. Regardless of injury spells, it's what you deliver on the pitch that matters.

Mahrez can be as "available" as you'd like him to be, if he doesn't contribute, it's pointless.

And when you look at the stats, goals and assist most of all, then Coutinho has much more to show for over the past few years. Mahrez' Europa League and Champions League experience also pales in comparison.

 

Mahrez is a great player, occasionally a superb player, at times even world-class. But not consistent and certainly hasn't played in supposedly "big" teams, surrounded by top players.

We have a good team, but Coutinho has had the luxury of being part of a Liverpool side with enormous attacking prowess and a star-studded FC Internazionale before that.

 

But in terms of stats and European (club) experience, Mahrez still is way behind Coutinho, probably always will be and that is in part reflected in the transfer fee.

We'd never get £142m for Mahrez. But a £80m to £100m? Possibly.

[TheHitman™]

I don't think coutinho is really that much better than Mahrez. On a technical level they are very close. I think apart from nationalities and maybe Coutinho's set piece ability there isn't much that separates them.

[davieG]

Coutinho has a buy out clause in his Barcelona  contract.

 

£354 million according to sky.

[davieG]

The stats show that Liverpool have had better results without Coutinho.

With 13 games 6w 6d 1l  win rate 46%

Without 9 games 6w 2d 1l win rate 66%