Puel 'Facing the sack' - reports

[polarbear]

32 minutes ago, Captain... said:

He’s done well because the system allows it he doesn’t need to be positionally responsible so he can tear off at will and has license to recover the ball rather than get back to create a solid defensive line. Chilwell and Ricardo being our best players is no surprise as marauding full backs are the glory roles in this formation. 

so surely this is good management? he's seen their strengths are bombing on and therefore has adjusted his team & formation accordingly (mendy and Ndidi to sit and mop ((admitted they could do a better job of it))

[Guest Col city fan]

@Babylon‘S posts are top drawer in this thread.

I find myself reading them and nodding

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

Its this simple. Criticism of Puel is fine. Wanting him sacked is unreasonable. Period.

Whilst we are in the top half saying he's shit is mental.

If we are still unable to break the "lesser" teams down and have made no progress by halfway through next season, which is not likely imo, then maybe then, yeah.

Saying he needs to go after every bad result is plain wrong. The vocal "Puel in" are only vocal in reaction to this lunacy

[Babylon]

8 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

@Babylon‘S posts are top drawer in this thread.

I find myself reading them and nodding

Printed and framed.

[Guest Col city fan]

Just now, Babylon said:

Printed and framed.

That’s the last ever time....

[Captain...]

8 minutes ago, polarbear said:

so surely this is good management? he's seen their strengths are bombing on and therefore has adjusted his team & formation accordingly (mendy and Ndidi to sit and mop ((admitted they could do a better job of it))

For sure he is getting the best out of Ricardo and Chilwell, I’m not saying Puel is a terrible manager, I’m just frustrated by the same approach in the same games leading to the same awful results against poor teams.

 

Part of the problem is we use all this energy getting into good positions on the flanks with overlapping full backs doubling up to create an opportunity that is wasted because we don’t have enough bodies in the box and the ones we that are in the box have no chance in the air.

[FLAN]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

Where did he say that? Not saying that wasn't the reason, but I heard multiple reports on the day that he had been left out due to illness when they discussed the team lineups before the match. 

 

Ah OK, I found it. Ok well in this case, Puel made a cock-up! Which I think we all agree with having seen the Cardiff game! I do think that was a big mistake because I'd have liked to have seen the 433. Seems in that case that it's 4231 against bottom 10 teams and 433 against top 10 teams.
 

“Hamza was rested, I took the option with Vicente Iborra on the bench because we played against a team with long kicks, high balls and a lot of aerial battles. If we needed a midfielder at the end to defend our position.

 

The interview I heard he indicated he was rested as Cardiff sit deep and he wasn’t suitable for that 

[Babylon]

9 minutes ago, Captain... said:

For sure he is getting the best out of Ricardo and Chilwell, I’m not saying Puel is a terrible manager, I’m just frustrated by the same approach in the same games leading to the same awful results against poor teams.

 

Part of the problem is we use all this energy getting into good positions on the flanks with overlapping full backs doubling up to create an opportunity that is wasted because we don’t have enough bodies in the box and the ones we that are in the box have no chance in the air.

I agree with much of what you're saying, but just little bits like this I just can't help but feel you go a tad over the top and the fair points then got lost. In this thread I've read that until Chelsea and Man City we couldn't beat the good teams, whilst you seem to be saying we're continually getting bad results against poor teams. Who the feck are we beating exactly to be 7th?

Edited 2 January 2019 by Babylon

[Babylon]

Just now, F1_AN said:

The interview I heard he indicated he was rested as Cardiff sit deep and he wasn’t suitable for that 

More a case of him thinking, why the hell would anyone want to play 3 CDM's against a team that has the lowest possession in the league by quite some way and often has zero intention of committing people forward? Three CDM's makes zero sense, if someone said... How about we go with three in the middle but one of them is a Silva / Maddison (basically not far off what we already play) it might make some sense.

[blaaklint]

6 minutes ago, Babylon said:

More a case of him thinking, why the hell would anyone want to play 3 CDM's against a team that has the lowest possession in the league by quite some way and often has zero intention of committing people forward? Three CDM's makes zero sense, if someone said... How about we go with three in the middle but one of them is a Silva / Maddison (basically not far off what we already play) it might make some sense.

That’s the thing though: playing a 4-3-3 with Maddison in the centre mids would probably just end up as a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-2-3-1. He may be good with the ball but he doesn’t have the discipline or defensive ability to act as a true centre mid, he’ll always end up drifting forward.

Edited 2 January 2019 by blaaklint

[GeorgeTheFox]

The way I see it there's no point in not sticking with him til the end of the season. The potential of building something special with the young players he is bringing though is worth the risk of this season potentially being a write off - we're not going to get relegated. We've been the club that goes through managers like they're nothing before so it would be nice to give one continuous trust (if it gets worse though obviously get rid but in an ideal world)

[Captain...]

5 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I agree with much of what you're saying, but just little bits like this I just can't help but feel you go a tad over the top and the fair points then got lost. In this thread I've read that until Chelsea and Man City we couldn't beat the good teams, whilst you seem to be saying we're continually getting bad results against poor teams. Who the feck are we beating exactly to be 7th?

I’m not delusional I don’t think we should be beating anyone in the top 6 and our results and performances have been pretty decent against the top 6.

 

We also have a great record against the middling teams, Everton, Watford, Wolves.

 

It’s the dross that we’ve served up against Palace, Bournemouth, Burnley, Brighton, Fulham, West Ham and now Cardiff. We were very fortunate to beat Southampton and were hardly scintillating against Newcastle, Huddersfield and Cardiff away. My patience has run out, until recently I was on the fence but willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I just don’t see things getting better until he changes and the all too predictable formation/performance/result against Cardiff undid all the good work from Man City and Chelsea. We were also utter garbage first half yesterday fortunately so were Everton.

[Babylon]

6 minutes ago, blaaklint said:

That’s the thing though: playing a 4-3-3 with Maddison in the centre mids would probably just end up as a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-2-3-1. He may be good with the ball but he doesn’t have the discipline or defensive ability to act as a true centre mid, he’ll always end up drifting forward.

Which is sort of my point, he shouldn't have to against a team like Cardiff (with all due respects to them). 4th lowest goals, lowest possession, 4th lowest shots per game, lowest pass completion rate. If we'd not won against Man City and Chelsea with a three in the middle (teams who actually warrant it), people would have said Puel was bat shit crazy for going with three CDM's against Cardiff.

[Captain...]

14 minutes ago, Babylon said:

More a case of him thinking, why the hell would anyone want to play 3 CDM's against a team that has the lowest possession in the league by quite some way and often has zero intention of committing people forward? Three CDM's makes zero sense, if someone said... How about we go with three in the middle but one of them is a Silva / Maddison (basically not far off what we already play) it might make some sense.

I did say that in the pre-match thread. 

 

The frustration was not necessarily the change in formation although I am not a fan of 4231 it was dropping Hamza out the squad after 2 top performances and only 60 minutes vs Man City. Clearly the freshest of the 3 CDM was dropped whilst retaining Ndidi who is one of the biggest culprits in giving the ball away cheaply and I think he has been in need of a rest mentally if not physically for a while now.

[Matt_Lcfc]

Imo that Chelsea game turned it round.

Puel had been under pressure all of that week, everyone thought we were going to be trounced.

but no, we won 1-0 and it was a vintage Leicester performance. 

“Vichai had a dream” rang around the Bridge and with a bit of fortune here and there we got all 3 points.

 

you could see at the end, backroom staff celebrating, Puel and the players coming to celebrate with the fans. Something clicked that day

[Monsell1976]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

So what do you want him to do? Abandon his philosophy because we have some bang average players, or would you rather who stuck with it and saw who can work in that system. Then set about replacing those who can't with ones who can.

 

If we were scrambling around the bottom not able to buy a win, then fair enough you have to just do whatever you can. If that means abandoning the long term aim for the short term, then needs must. But we are comfortable, we aren't going down. So lets try and make it work, it might mean another two transfer windows are needed. But it wasn't working before anyway, so lets give it a chance and some time.

 

He saw we needed more from right back and from the 10 and we've replaced frankly two of the weaker links in the team, with Ricardo and Maddison who look good enough to work in the system.

 

We all thought Silva and Iheanacho would then solve the more attacking CM and the backup striker issues, but they've flopped. Meaning issues we thought were previously solved are still there. So he's now got to sort that as well, on top of that the club failed to replace Mahrez properly in the summer. I'm sure they know that full well. You only need to see our scatter gun approach for a winger to know clearly we didn't get our first choices for whatever reason.

 

Look, I know it's not perfect and he's not perfect. Leaving 2 CDM's on when chasing a game, or not having a striker with something a bit different to change a game or get on a cross is frustrating at times. But we had the two big men as backup before and they weren't exactly ripping up trees.

 

If he looks at what we've got and thinks, like most of us seem to. That we will need a striker, a CM comfortable on the ball who can pick a pass and a better winger. Then he should get the time to move the squad around into a position that means we can get them in.

As I said in my original post, I’m very much confused about him, I can see what he’s trying, but at times he’s his own worst enemy.

 

 This what I would prefer, get rid of those who have very lucrative contracts, for limited abilities, and replace them with players who can play football in more than  one way.

 

 Then with his better technical players see if he can move us forward, even at the expense of some of the entertainment value, but if he’s just going to keep us stagnant, and bored, I would move him on.

 

 Don’t get me confused with a glory supporter, I like the championship away days, relegation doesn’t bother me, do I want us to be successful, of course, but I cannot watch soul destroying football long term either.

 

 Puel wants to play quick passing football, but he needs to resolve the reasons why we are inconsistent and pedestrian a lot of the time, so I would give him this summer with a massive clear out, and review him end of next season.

[coolhandfox]

47 minutes ago, Monsell1976 said:

As I said in my original post, I’m very much confused about him, I can see what he’s trying, but at times he’s his own worst enemy.

 

 This what I would prefer, get rid of those who have very lucrative contracts, for limited abilities, and replace them with players who can play football in more than  one way.

 

 Then with his better technical players see if he can move us forward, even at the expense of some of the entertainment value, but if he’s just going to keep us stagnant, and bored, I would move him on.

 

 Don’t get me confused with a glory supporter, I like the championship away days, relegation doesn’t bother me, do I want us to be successful, of course, but I cannot watch soul destroying football long term either.

 

 Puel wants to play quick passing football, but he needs to resolve the reasons why we are inconsistent and pedestrian a lot of the time, so I would give him this summer with a massive clear out, and review him end of next season.

I think this is what he's doing, I heard an interview with 'Big Sam' the other day he said one of the hardest parts of being a PL manager is not being able to move on players as no-one else pays the same wages as the PL.

 

Puel has got rid of Musa and Ulloa, the writing is on the wall for Iborra, King and Silva and Okazaki, Fuchs and maybe Simpson are out of contact in the summer.

 

Revamping a squad takes time.

 

Yes he can be his own worse enemy, but maybe its just being committed to his plan and willing to take short term pain for long term gain.

 

 

Edited 2 January 2019 by coolhandfox

[tetly]

So I wanted him to go after we lost to palace, the results over Christmas should buy him until the end of the season to reevaluate then. I still think we have rode our luck in recent games. Our home form needs to be better and he will get more support.

We are probably only a two or three signings away from being a good team. He should get the time to move on some of the garbage here and add what we all see we need.  Hopefully we will turn into a really good team. 

[Monsell1976]

30 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I think this is what he's doing, I heard an interview with 'Big Sam' the other day he said one of the hardest parts of being a PL manager is not being able to move on players as no-one else pays the same wages as the PL.

 

Puel has got rid of Musa and Ulloa, the writing is on the wall for Iborra, King and Silva and Okazaki, Fuchs and maybe Simpson are out of contact in the summer.

 

Revamping a squad takes time.

 

Yes he can be his own worse enemy, but maybe its just being committed to his plan and willing to take short term pain for long term gain.

 

 

I want him to work, as it’s not healthy how we have got through managers in recent years.

 The signings and wages paid for the quality of player in recent years have been poor, but we still have the same pieces of the recruiting department remain in place, so I wish puel luck in recruiting better quality players, without being ripped off, but getting rid of the list you mention, and I’d like to see a few more, should free up the wages, which affects ffp more than the fees seem too

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

Our players are not bang average, they are probably the opposite with very obvious strengths and weaknesses. 

 

If we we want to recruit players that can play in a Puel system we end up with Ghezzal he can pass, shoot, dribble, reasonable pace, decent work rate. He ticks all of Puel’s boxes but is the definition of bang average as he isn’t good enough in any one discipline to make a difference. This is what I fear we will end up like under Puel, Southampton a bunch of capable players playing technical football with no edge to make a difference when needed.

But then!! you again mention Southampton...and the argument falls on deaf ears.

you chose  Ghezzal,one player as an argument......I put.....

 

#Periera.  now finding his PL footing..with top performances

# Soyuncu...no tragic fail buy...Too early for any analyse,but  looks the part...

# Amartey,under Puel,starting to look the part..

# Evans early struggles ( +with injury),has seen him also re-kindle his career...

# Wes Morgan, decrepit no longer fit for purpose...say some...but many now put him down as one of our consistent solid performers...

# Mendy..re-kindling his career..!!

#Choudry..now being given his reins,must be a positive note!!!

# Simpson...taken from the knackers yard....from game one...solid performancess

#Maddison ..introduced in Puel s reign,but Puel rightly against some blind posters will, subs him,and openly says he is not automatic 1st choice!!!

#Vardy rested,then Puel and player informs media,he needs nursing through groin strain...Again after silly blind-poster rants!!!

# 3 inherited players expected to show some form and potential ,our biggest problem that Puel can't control....Nacho..Silva...Iborra

# Gray: blowing hot n cold..but still can prove doubters wrong....

# Diabate....not yet realising  his PL-1st team potential...but heyho...still start of his career,this season not his deciding campaign...

 

##  Chilwell  actually embarrassing 85% of this forum (I belong to the 15%,who realises youth and new buys  needs time!!!!  )

## Again  Chilwell and Maguire,making full England caps,under Puel s tenure,which many still can't  ,won't appreciate.

#Ndidi..blows this season more cold than hot,but when on avg,still worth persevering with...Puel,like 98% of the squad is not throwing

   Potential quality out with the dishwater...

#Puel and coaching staff thankfully ignore this forums suggestions...(everybody can have an opinion)

# Under Puel,no matter what Puel decenters believe has created a damn good defence -group

# Just my opinion...but previous 2 seasons of regular turgid performances...We might not yet have  seen consistent above average performances,but

   Even in my frustration,I don't believe this season we have been turgid...poor n average in some games,but not turgid...

 

## We might all like the instant-coffee routine...but Puel/any manager was going to take on a bitter ,if not poisoned chalis,

     once Shakespeare's attempt fell out of  the sky!!   

      We were falling in quality,and had failed big in mega-bucks recruitment !! Plus an aging group of players on board.

       A rebuild and development was always a must,with no big money on the table,until last sins corrected...

 

Now some of you,might play your single cards and  believe demeaning Puel ,over Ghezzi, or even Diabate is some type of proof,needed to get onto

(Imo ) some nonsense bandwagon....to shout and demand he must  Go...!!!

 

I have/had from the beginning,not an iota of an idea,if this relationship,will see us competing for top 4-6,  or even a consistent 6-8th.

I know if we hit top 8 over a 3-5 yr period,that's the best we have EVER had,including O'Neils tenure.

so then I lay my above cards (#) on the table,against those who keep pecking on about 1-2 players presumed failings.

 

Plus I am no Blind faith Puellist...but he (like any other decent manager) has to be given time and patience....our problem was never going to be

turned over in a 1-3 season period!!!  We have good young BBone of players,who still need to prove their potential, plus some experienced players,

who have still the quality to pull us along...The interfacing/meshing  is going to take awhile...

The precarious situation of still carrying expensive "surplus to requirements players " is not helping Puel or clubs near future  planning...I

 

 

 

     

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

3 hours ago, That_Dude said:

Most of the Puel outers come with more than enough reasonable arguments and raise very good points, as obviously, things are far from perfect. You can disagree with them but see where they're coming from (they're still wrong though ).

 

But my God, there's a very active dozen of them or so who are a real plague on this forum. Literally pissed off when we win, openly wishing the team to lose so he can go (one of them proudly wrote it while opening a pre-match thread), deriding every starting XI or substitution, constantly second guessing his decisions even after a convincing win, and/or posting one liners with no other substance than "Grrr! boring football, should be top 6, Puel out". You can't tell if it's a lack of football understanding on a very basic level, a reluctance to admit that he's not only doing a shit job, or simply an insane troll logic. Or the combination of all three. That's not supporting the team, that's reaching an Arsenal or Manchester fan entitlement, without even having neither the silverware nor the squad strength, and I confess that it's very difficult to not rub a good result in their nose.

 

After 14 months what I personally can get as positive, aside from nurturing and introducing the young players, is the spectacular improvement of the defense. Especially set-pieces. I do think that he made it his top priority from the beginning. It's not because he's defensive minded but more of a pragmatic approach. Substance before style. We didn't and still don't have an outstanding attacking front and he knew that Mahrez was going, so to get the points we first had to stop leaking goals for fun since we weren't going to consistently out-score many opponents anyway with the players we have, bar Vardy obviously. That's where the possession based 4-2-3-1 with 2 CDM stemmed from, in my opinion. Yes it's not always pretty to see at the moment but it's efficient. We're resilient, hard to break and rarely lose a lead. We don't score a lot during a match but score nonetheless (only failed to in three (?) games). More possession also implies less chances for the opponent to score.

 

Now this 4-2-3-1 is showing its limits in its actual configuration against teams who come to us and play 10 men behind the ball. Therein lies his next big challenge and the problem is much older than his tenure, going back to the second half of the 2015/16 season precisely. It's not his system is inherently wrong or him wanting us to play slow, ponderous football. I'm certain that he demands from Ndidi and Mendi to pass the ball forward as soon as possible before the opponent's defense can reorganize themselves. They can't. It's not that Ndidi went backwards, he's just trying to pass forward more often and he's not very good at it. So both of them end up playing it safe, sideways or backwards. Whether they will improve in that register, time will tell. What's certain is that the combination of both of them, whilst giving us a very solid defense, will never allow us to really shine against a defensive minded opponent unless we get a quality striker and/or a good CM. Maddison must drop to get the ball and finds himself then cut out from Vardy and the actual wingers aren't creative/good enough to offer something else.

 

On the other hand? What are his actual alternatives? I can't, for the life of me, see them with the current squad. He made mistakes but he also was let down by some players. I can remember us having a great run with very entertaining football (bar the horror show against Palace) about the same time last season when Iborra played his part in the midfield before going off the boil and disappearing from the starting XI. He showed a lot of faith in Gray but the latter never really improved his decision making in the last third, rightly losing his starting place since then. I don't have for habit to bash the players or write them off after a couple of games but I fear that we have a " Walcott" case on our hands. I do hope however that he proves me wrong.

 

If Silva, for whom I had high hopes and now on his way to somewhere else, stepped up we wouldn't have this discussion and Puel would've certainly switched to a more offensive formation. He's not shy of making gambles and changing the formation even if they don't always pay off. People crucified him when he played Ricardo as winger in the beginning of the season and now would happily see him getting more game time in this position. Some people blame him now for not having played Choudhury from the start of the season or more often, but I still recall their reactions when we saw his name on the sheet in a 4-3-3 against Manchester City in the Carabao Cup. People want to play a defensive midfield three against the bottom teams just because it worked against the big ones. You fecking can't. They won't attack, so you can't counter-attack. They'll happily give you the ball, wait for you and try to counter-attack you. It's not the miracle solution and that's why he doesn't use it against the likes of Cardiff even if he probably shouldn't have gone with Mendi and Ndidi and have given Choudhury a go in a midfield two.

 

Now we are in January and I'd be highly surprised if we go to the second half without bringing in a new attacking player. 7th is still well within our reach and I have good faith that we'll see some improvement on the attacking side. Exciting times to come.

Thanks for saying pretty much how I see it and saving me 30 mins of my life.

[Vacamion]

 

People have been posting about our two styles of play as if we were abject and thrashed by Cardiff.

 

We were really quite unlucky.  We had a good few chances, we wasted a penalty and then they scored a long range one at the end having not particularly troubled Kasper up to then.

 

I accept it wasn’t particularly thrilling stuff, but a lot of that was down to Cardiff parking the bus, and, had we scored, it might have opened up.

 

I don’t think we are THAT far off something great, and I see improvement and promise, so I would suggest that any talk of sacking Claude Puel at any time this season would be misguided.

 

However, if we lost a game or two, plenty of the “swing voters” in here would swing back and the idea would be back on the table.

[murphy]

3 hours ago, Col city fan said:

@Babylon‘S posts are top drawer in this thread.

I find myself reading them and nodding

Are you sure it's not Parkinson's?  

[Dr The Singh]

3 hours ago, Col city fan said:

@Babylon‘S posts are top drawer in this thread.

I find myself reading them and nodding

Typical Col, trying it on anybody that resembles Cattermole.

 

He's taken Col, he's Amartey's bitch

[Nickfosse]

9 hours ago, The Doctor said:

But by the same logic you can say it's often bad luck where we haven't got results. You can say "oh, Chelsea hit the bar and Aguero skied one from six yards, lucky we took 6 points rather than 2" but for every example like that there's a "Vardy had a tap in cleared off the line vs Burnley and Iheanacho missed a 1v1 at Fulham, we were unlucky to only take 2 points rather than 6 for those games". Or is it poor finishing when we do it, but good luck when others do it against us?

This is very true. I’ve noticed when we pick up points the narrative seems to be that we won them despite Puel, often luckily, and when we lose it’s entirely down to the manager.

One example sticks in my mind. We absolutely batterred Swansea at home last season. We had complete control of the game, scored a goal, then another after an early flag on Diabate was not noticed and eventually ruled out. They had one corner early second half and scored from a header. There is simply no way they “deserved” the point unless you focus solely on the result. 

I’ve read countless times why Puel should be sacked because we had a 3 game run at home without winning which included this game. It’s still quoted in dispatches to this day. 

Now I completely accept we’ve had games go the other way, but why not when it’s in Puel’s favour?

 

I carried on reading the Saints forum a while after he joined us and I came across one interesting comment that I’ve come to agree with for us too. 

The Southampton fan said after watching them for half a season post Puel that he now looked back and realised that Puel had got the best out of a limited group of players. 8th and a cup final was just fine for that squad following the departure of key and gifted players. 

i think this is true for us too. At times our passing and effectiveness in the final third is very poor, but he gets pretty much the best from our squad over a period of time.

i keep reading two contradictory statements. One that we have a great squad that should be pushing for Europe. The other that our recruitment has been appalling since winning the league. I think the truth lies somewhere in between and Puel is getting the best we could hope for over a 20 game period. 

 

The only way way we could improve is if a manager was available who gets more out of a team than the sum of their parts. I simply don’t see one available, and certainly not one who is willing and able to come here. As several Southampton fans said to the vast majority who wanted Puel out, be careful what you wish for. The grass is not always greener. It was true for them. It could well be true for us too. 

Edited 2 January 2019 by Nickfosse