Wilfred Ndidi

[GingerrrFox]

Play him at centre back. He’s a centre back and not a holding midfielder. He doesn’t utilise the ball well enough to play in the holding role for a possession based team. 

[Jonezy]

Also starting to think, we are better off using him as a CB until he regains his Kante-like mojo again. Nervous every time he has the ball and he does not seem as dominant as he used to in cleaning everything up in front of the defense. Him and Amartey both backing off for the 2nd Brentford goal yesterday, where old school Ndidi would have been in the attacker's face instantly.

[Sampson]

Just now, Jonezy said:

Also starting to think, we are better off using him as a CB until he regains his Kante-like mojo again. Nervous every time he has the ball and he does not seem as dominant as he used to in cleaning everything up in front of the defense. Him and Amartey both backing off for the 2nd Brentford goal yesterday, where old school Ndidi would have been in the attacker's face instantly.

I’d dread to see him at centre back again. He gives away so many penalties when playing there.

[StanSP]

Ndidi should never play CB. 

 

Mods, if anyone suggests this can they have a temp ban

 

[Jonezy]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

I’d dread to see him at centre back again. He gives away so many penalties when playing there.

He helped keeping a clean sheet against Liverpool last season as CB though. He do give a lot of penalties away, but is that consistent with him at CB?

 

Just think Ndidi needs to focus on the defensive side of things instead of losing cofidence every time he makes a wayward pass.

[Claridge]

Shouldn't be in the team, offers almost nothing and is the worst midfield prem passer there has ever been

[FoxyLeon]

Here's a thought, how about we return him to the position where he was being talked about, at times, as the best naturally defensive holding midfielder in Europe?

This double pivot experiment, especially alongside Tielemans, does not work at all. I've been watching it now for two years, and it's blindingly obvious it does not work. Blaming Ndidi for his creative passing, is a bit like blaming Xavi for losing headers against Peter Crouch, stop playing a style that completely highlights his weakness to the point where you lose all his strengths. 

 

Almost every single individual player thread on here is littered with complaints about where there game is it. There's a blindingly obvious party who is responsible for our failings, it's not the fault of around 20 individual players. Ndidi should spare the need for a back three, as he has done for years, he should sit in front of Evans and Fofana, on his own, allowing the full backs to get forward and offering cover to the counter attack. Instead, as we saw with Brentford's second goal, and all too often for the last two years, he's too far wide in a double pivot to protect the centre properly. The second we switched to a double pivot with him and Youri, the midfield collapsed.

 

 

[Fox92]

It's okay people saying he's a good holding man and it's not his job to go forward, which I agree with, but he frustrates me with his inability to find players with a forward pass. Look at the best holding men, Fabinho at Liverpool as an example, and they're not just limited to winning the ball back.

[filbertway]

4 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

It's okay people saying he's a good holding man and it's not his job to go forward, which I agree with, but he frustrates me with his inability to find players with a forward pass. Look at the best holding men, Fabinho at Liverpool as an example, and they're not just limited to winning the ball back.

This is why I always found it laughable when people were worried an elite club would take him. 

 

Rodgers had the perfect role for him though for 6 months, then decided to whack him in a double pivot which makes him look a much lesser player. He's such a tool that allows you to attack with extra men and we're just wasting him.

[Lesta2014]

Good to see him literally playing holding role yesterday and not expected to get further forward, let him find full fitness there and he be a beast again. 10 ball recoveries in one game is exactly what we missed back end of the season.

 

understandably tired after not playing too many pre season games on the back of his injury so I’d probably have swapped him for Mendy. 90 will do him world of good and he’s got another week to up his fitness. Big beast wilf is back this season

[Sampson]

6 minutes ago, filbertway said:

This is why I always found it laughable when people were worried an elite club would take him. 

 

Rodgers had the perfect role for him though for 6 months, then decided to whack him in a double pivot which makes him look a much lesser player. He's such a tool that allows you to attack with extra men and we're just wasting him.

I know people blame Rodgers for everything atm but Ndidi looked no better in the 433 last season. 
 

It’s a cop out to say “it’s the system” I think. Ndidi of 2-5 seasons ago was brilliant. He collapsed along with the rest of the team during the second half of the 20/21 season, but unlike the rest (other than maybe Soyuncu) he’s just never looked the same player since regardless of what system we’ve played.

 

I don’t think he’s “done”, as he’s still young enough that he can get back to his best, but his performances haven’t been at it for a long long time now and the type of performances indicate far bigger issues than him just being played slightly out of position by a few metres to me.

Edited 8 August 2022 by Sampson

[volpeazzurro]

Ndidi is just another example of Rodgers 'Midas in reverse' quality ie everything gold he touches turns to ...t!

 

Ndidi is good at the things Ndidi was renowned for and that's not running about near the opposition penalty area passing and shooting!

 

The 'Rodgers being a great coach and making players better' media assertion is an absolute myth.

[filbertway]

3 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I know people blame Rodgers for everything atm but Ndidi looked no better in the 433 last season. 
 

It’s a cop out to say “it’s the system” I think. Ndidi of 2-5 seasons ago was brilliant. He collapsed along with the rest of the team during the second half of the 20/21 season, but unlike the rest (other than maybe Soyuncu) he’s just never looked the same player since regardless of what system we’ve played.

 

I don’t think he’s “done”, as he’s still young enough that he can get back to his best, but his performances haven’t been at it for a long long time now and the type of performances indicate far bigger issues than him just being played slightly out of position by a few metres to me.

Probably because it was more of a lopsided 4 2 3 1. Tielemans spent 80% of the time sandwiched between the RB and CB.

 

We've not played with that aggression that left Ndidi totally alone in midfield and able to mop up. His strengths are incredibly obvious but we don't play in a way that suits them. Even Yesterday he registered 10 recoveries I believe. In a game where we had the lions share of the ball.

 

Rodgers isn't using a lot of players to their best. He has his style of play and it's up to players to try and bend to that. Which is fine, but if it doesn't work then he has to take responsibility when players limitations are consistently highlighted.

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, volpeazzurro said:

Ndidi is just another example of Rodgers 'Midas in reverse' quality ie everything gold he touches turns to ...t!

 

Ndidi is good at the things Ndidi was renowned for and that's not running about near the opposition penalty area passing and shooting!

 

The 'Rodgers being a great coach and making players better' media assertion is an absolute myth.

Then he will never be good enough for the modern pressing game. People harking back to what he was good at are looking at days of yore, he is not capable enough with the ball, and people cannot demand best of the rest finishes when we have a roadblock to swift passing sitting slowing the whole thing down.

[Sampson]

4 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Probably because it was more of a lopsided 4 2 3 1. Tielemans spent 80% of the time sandwiched between the RB and CB.

 

We've not played with that aggression that left Ndidi totally alone in midfield and able to mop up. His strengths are incredibly obvious but we don't play in a way that suits them. Even Yesterday he registered 10 recoveries I believe. In a game where we had the lions share of the ball.

 

Rodgers isn't using a lot of players to their best. He has his style of play and it's up to players to try and bend to that. Which is fine, but if it doesn't work then he has to take responsibility when players limitations are consistently highlighted.

But Ndidi was excellent for the first 18 months-2 years under Rodgers playing this exact same system.

 

Again, I’m not defending Rodgers, he’s got a lot wrong, but people are using him to excuse absolutely everything away from underperforming players. 
 

Ndidi’s underperformances run much deeper than just “it’s Rodgers’ system”.

Edited 8 August 2022 by Sampson

[filbertway]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

But Ndidi was excellent for the first 18 months-2 years under Rodgers playing this exact same system.

 

Again, I’m not defending Rodgers, he’s got a lot wrong, but people are using him as a shield to protect underperforming players. 
 

Ndidi’s underperformances run much deeper than just “it’s Rodgers’ system”.

What do you believe the reasons to be?

[moore_94]

7 minutes ago, Sampson said:

But Ndidi was excellent for the first 18 months-2 years under Rodgers playing this exact same system.

 

Again, I’m not defending Rodgers, he’s got a lot wrong, but people are using him as a shield to protect underperforming players. 
 

Ndidi’s underperformances run much deeper than just “it’s Rodgers’ system”.

It wasn’t the same system though

 

In 19/20 and 20/21 he was on his own, he had a lot more freedom in the space between defence and midfield and effectively had it all to himself to just sweep across the pitch and mop up the play and just drop it off to either of the two players right in front of him

 

Last season he was basically in a pair with Youri who was dropped deeper next to him so the majority of Wilf’s play was focused on the left side of the pitch, with Youri covering the right, and it also meant Wilf was having to get a lot more involved in the forward play

Edited 8 August 2022 by moore_94

[Sampson]

Just now, filbertway said:

What do you believe the reasons to be?

I don't know. Could be a number of things - loss of confidence, injuries have caused his legs to go a bit, just hideously out of form, personal issues, mental health issues, just making poor decisions. You cannot really judge these things unless you know the player as a person.

 

The point isn't that everything has to be about finding the reason, the point is he's underperformed from his old self now for a long time in a lot of different systems and that he previously performed excellently under Rodgers for 18 months when Rodgers first came under the same systems. So it seems an absolute massive stretch to think that Rodgers is an excuse for everything and that Ndidi would suddenly start performing again like magic under another manager. 

 

Ndidi's underperformances are clearly down to far more than just "Rodgers' system".

[Sampson]

5 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

It wasn’t the same system though

 

In 19/20 and 20/21 he was on his own, he had a lot more freedom in the space between defence and midfield and effectively had it all to himself to just sweep across the pitch and mop up the play and just drop it off to either of the two players right in front of him

 

Last season he was basically in a pair with Youri who was dropped deeper next to him so the majority of Wilf’s play was focused on the left side of the pitch, with Youri covering the right, and it also meant Wilf was having to get a lot more involved in the forward play

It wasn't. We played 4-3-3 plenty the last 18 months too and we played 3-5-2 at times during those first 18 months as well. Tielemans was never a marauding attacking midfielder or even really a box-to-box midfielder.

 

I'd be interested to see Ndidi and Tielemans' heat maps over Rodgers' seasons here, but I'd be willing to bet quite significantly that there's minimal difference between them and that you're reading massively into micro changes to try and absolve Ndidi from blame over moving over a few metres on the pitch.

Edited 8 August 2022 by Sampson

[moore_94]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

It wasn't. We played 4-3-3 plenty the last 18 months too.

 

I'd be interested to see Ndidi and Tielemans' heat maps over Rodgers' seasons here, but I'd be willing to bet quite significantly that there's minimal difference between them and that you're reading massively into micro changes to try and absolve Ndidi from blame over moving over a few metres on the pitch.

19/20

 

 

20/21

 

 

21/22

 

 

You can see it is a lot more balanced with a main focus in the middle of the pitch in the first 2, but then in the 3rd there is a heavier focus on the left

Edited 8 August 2022 by moore_94

[Sampson]

1 minute ago, moore_94 said:

19/20

 

 

20/21

 

 

21/22

 

 

Is that Ndidi or Tielemans? Where did you find it?

[moore_94]

Just now, Sampson said:

Is that Ndidi or Tielemans? Where did you find it?

Ndidi

 

https://www.sofascore.com/player/wilfred-ndidi/787885

[filbertway]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

I don't know. Could be a number of things - loss of confidence, injuries have caused his legs to go a bit, just hideously out of form, personal issues, mental health issues, just making poor decisions. You cannot really judge these things unless you know the player as a person.

 

The point isn't that everything has to be about finding the reason, the point is he's underperformed from his old self now for a long time in a lot of different systems and that he previously performed excellently under Rodgers for 18 months when Rodgers first came under the same systems. So it seems an absolute massive stretch to think that Rodgers is an excuse for everything and that Ndidi would suddenly start performing again like magic under another manager. 

 

Ndidi's underperformances are clearly down to far more than just "Rodgers' system".

Kind of ruins debate and chit chat if you just shut down people's thoughts and then have nothing to offer in return.

 

"You're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why, because it's impossible to know"

 

Although I seem to remember you calling me out over the summer because my opinion was wrong and yours seemed to be fact

 

Youri is not playing as far forwards as he did during Rodgers best time with us. We're not pressing as high overall. These two things I  am confident in saying. Ndidi is asked to play on the ball more now and is asked to do less defensively because we play more cautiously than we used to.

 

Ndidi's is doing more of what he's limited at and less of what he's great at. Maybe it's because he was injured, or he's struggling on his degree, or maybe the tactical approach to games has changed. It's hard to know which one is more likely.

 

 

 

[Sampson]

Just now, moore_94 said:

Ndidi

 

https://www.sofascore.com/player/wilfred-ndidi/787885

OK thanks. But doesn't this show the exact opposite of what you said? That Ndidi has had a lot more freedom in between defence and attack last 2 seasons compared to previously? He seems to have the freedom to cover far more ground now and far more across the pitch compared to 20/21.

[lcfcsnow]

6 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

You can see it is a lot more balanced with a main focus in the middle of the pitch in the first 2, but then in the 3rd there is a heavier focus on the left

You can also see he's all over the place in 19/20 and has more freedom - to mop up, whereas in every season since he has a more set position (bigger blocks of red).