Corona Virus

[Mike Oxlong]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Yes, just extremely unlikely against the backdrop of mainstream and social media whose primary task is outrage.

I think the vast majority can recognise effective, clear and decisive leadership and that if delivered that would quell a large portion of those who are presently stirring the pot.

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

I don’t follow. Is it not possible to have good leadership based on sound principles ? 

It wasn’t an option in the last election.

[Mike Oxlong]

Just now, Strokes said:

It wasn’t an option in the last election.

 

I agree. How depressing ! 

[fox_up_north]

This is just very frustrating.

 

So I can have tradesmen into my house to do up my kitchen. Men who I don't know and can't verify where they've been, or who they've come into contact with. I can also drive about 90 minutes to get to the sea to sunbathe on my own or with my girlfriend. If I worked in an office, I could also return to work and breathe in the same air as other people for 8 hours a day. 

 

But I can't drive to see my grandparents who have barely left the house in two months?

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Mike Oxlong said:

I think the vast majority can recognise effective, clear and decisive leadership and that if delivered that would quell a large portion of those who are presently stirring the pot.

The effectiveness of a leader is tied to what they represent though, so therefore what you, I, every other bugger regard as an effective leader will vary.

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

This is just very frustrating.

 

So I can have tradesmen into my house to do up my kitchen. Men who I don't know and can't verify where they've been, or who they've come into contact with. I can also drive about 90 minutes to get to the sea to sunbathe on my own or with my girlfriend. If I worked in an office, I could also return to work and breathe in the same air as other people for 8 hours a day. 

 

But I can't drive to see my grandparents who have barely left the house in two months?

You can, you just need to socially distance when meeting them.

[oxford blue]

5 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

You can, you just need to socially distance when meeting them

And you have to meet outside the home and you can only see one at any time.

[Mike Oxlong]

20 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

The effectiveness of a leader is tied to what they represent though, so therefore what you, I, every other bugger regard as an effective leader will vary.

In part but it’s still possible to recognise good leadership in those that you disagree with politically. The present situation is more encompassing than just the politics of left and right. People need and are entitled to an unambiguous message that is logical and evidence bases. I don’t think we have that at present although hopefully some of the cracks will be filled during the day. 

Edited 11 May 2020 by Mike Oxlong

[fox_up_north]

9 minutes ago, oxford blue said:

And you have to meet outside the home and you can only see one at any time.

The caveat being they live two hours away.

 

So, in theory, we can both drive to somewhere neutral to sunbathe in the park at a distance of 2 metres. 

 

They must realise how daft this all sounds?

[StanSP]

 

 

 

[foxfanazer]

Will the government really enforce truancy fines for children of parents that don't feel comfortable sending them back before September? Many other lockdown measures need to be lifted before I'm sending my daughter back

[joachim1965]

2 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

The caveat being they live two hours away.

 

So, in theory, we can both drive to somewhere neutral to sunbathe in the park at a distance of 2 metres. 

 

They must realise how daft this all sounds?

The thing I can't get my head around is this, seperated parents can take children from one household to another because the government realise how important this contact is but parents/ grandparents can only meet children/ grandchildren outside and 2m apart.

Grandparent / grandchild contact is massively important.

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well I don’t know about manufacturing but construction relies heavily on sub contract labour, so those that don’t feel ready to return won’t have too.

I phoned an agent today and he thinks that following the conversations he has had this morning, there will be plenty of work in the short term for those ready, as labour is still likely to be down by as much as 50%. Plenty of sites opening up later this week.

 

Employers have to provide a safe working environment, if they aren’t any employee can contact the HSE just like any other breeches of safety. 
If people can’t return due to childcare issues, then it’s quite simple, don’t return. 
 

Have you got any evidence, anecdotally or otherwise, that anyone was ordered back to work following that speech?

 

No, I've not heard of anyone being ordered back to work - and I wasn't really thinking about that. I imagine that it would happen, but only very rarely with a minority of bad employers, though that's enough to make it an issue.

 

What I was referring to was employees themselves now feeling under pressure to go back, even if it's not safe or practical for them - and even if employers have not pressurised them at all.

Some are bound to fear losing their jobs if they opt not to go back, even if that's a couple of months down the line if their employer downsizes. Some would also feel a loyalty to help their employer not to go under. Others might be concerned about the judgment of others - people thinking they're idlers/scroungers for not going back. Some employers might also feel pressurised to open before they can do so safely....though I'm sure the pressures to open so as to keep the business afloat are big already.

 

Worth remembering, too, that not everyone is middle-aged like us or been securely doing a valued job for years. Some are 18 or 20. Some have just started with a new employer or have an insecure contract or do a job in which they know they'd be easily replaced. For those with childcare issues, it's easy to say "it's simple, don't return" - and that's the right decision. But how many might fear the loss of their jobs and income, inability to pay rent, mortgage or bills & the potential to be sanctioned from benefits due to having lost their job "through their own fault"? How many might also go back to work to protect their jobs, leaving older kids at home alone or handing younger kids to neighbours, friends or grandparents, increasing the risk of infection?

 

Again, not everyone feels confident enough to contact the HSE, labour inspectors, union or whoever - and how confident could even a self-confident person be that such a complaint would be well handled at a chaotic time like this?

 

I'll have to ask my brother again what's going on in construction, as he works in that sector, but I've not called him for 10 days. Last time we spoke, he was off work mainly due to builders' merchants being shut so no materials, but expected to start again soon doing some preparatory work that didn't require materials. He wants to go back, still has work lined up (though some cancelled) and could probably work safely in his current job (landscape gardening). But I think you're being complacent even about all workers in construction. I'm sure what you say is true for well-established tradesmen operating as subcontractors....but what about unskilled / semi-skilled labourers (like my brother), many of whom are now self-employed subcontractors? Because he's only been working with this new bloke for a few months - and it's a new start-up - neither he nor his "employer" (technically he's self-employed) are entitled to govt Covid money. He could get Universal Credit but won't out of pride, hatred of bureaucracy & awareness of hostile attitudes towards claimants (sanctions etc.).

 

 

 

 

[VLC86]

34 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well I don’t know about manufacturing but construction relies heavily on sub contract labour, so those that don’t feel ready to return won’t have too.

I phoned an agent today and he thinks that following the conversations he has had this morning, there will be plenty of work in the short term for those ready, as labour is still likely to be down by as much as 50%. Plenty of sites opening up later this week.

 

Employers have to provide a safe working environment, if they aren’t any employee can contact the HSE just like any other breeches of safety. 
If people can’t return due to childcare issues, then it’s quite simple, don’t return. 
 

Have you got any evidence, anecdotally or otherwise, that anyone was ordered back to work following that speech?

If the PM says “You can go back to work” then trust me, some employers will say to people they need to go back. Granted if it’s for childcare it’s likely to be less strict but I guarantee some people would have had them calls today, whether they backtrack tomorrow or not is another matter.

 

I’m asthmatic and before the first press conference where he told me to stay home I was pressing to work from home for weeks but I was told under no uncertain terms that what the government says goes.

[foxfanazer]

7 minutes ago, joachim1965 said:

The thing I can't get my head around is this, seperated parents can take children from one household to another because the government realise how important this contact is but parents/ grandparents can only meet children/ grandchildren outside and 2m apart.

Grandparent / grandchild contact is massively important.

Massively agree

[Leicester_Loyal]

I think the issue with meeting grandparents is if you have the virus, but aren't showing symptons, you can easily give it them, hence we're being encouraged to stick to 2m apart if they aren't in our household.

 

We're trying to lower the rate of infection, that means you can't have everything. The Government have had to pick one of the two options below:

 

• Start going back to work as normal, contributing to the GDP, propping up the economy and ensuring you have some of your own money to live off
• See family & friends as normal

I'm sure in the coming weeks it'll be changed slighty so we can see family and friends not in our household. I don't agree with it, but I can see why they've done it.

[BKLFox]

3 hours ago, Pliskin said:

Typically it’s as clear as a shit smeared wind screen. My brother works in the construction industry, however, he works in an office and he has been told that his office is open as normal again. Where the clarity is lacking, that is purely idiotic, selfish and retarded! 
 

All his boss has said is “one person in a toilet at any one time”. ****ing madness. 

Surely on the company bosses, other bosses In construction / manufacturing will be keeping their ‘office staff’ at home providing they can work from home, which is in keeping with the message...seems pretty clear to me

[ScouseFox]

some people live in a world so fu cking far away from reality it is unbelievable 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, ScouseFox said:

some people live in a world so fu cking far away from your reality it is unbelievable 

 

[joachim1965]

15 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I think the issue with meeting grandparents is if you have the virus, but aren't showing symptons, you can easily give it them, hence we're being encouraged to stick to 2m apart if they aren't in our household.

 

We're trying to lower the rate of infection, that means you can't have everything. The Government have had to pick one of the two options below:

 

• Start going back to work as normal, contributing to the GDP, propping up the economy and ensuring you have some of your own money to live off
• See family & friends as normal

I'm sure in the coming weeks it'll be changed slighty so we can see family and friends not in our household. I don't agree with it, but I can see why they've done it.

I see where you are coming from, but ferrying kids between households is just as risky as grandparents visiting. 

Not all grandparents are over 70 and at risk.

Edited 11 May 2020 by joachim1965

[Alf Bentley]

12 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

If the PM says “You can go back to work” then trust me, some employers will say to people they need to go back. Granted if it’s for childcare it’s likely to be less strict but I guarantee some people would have had them calls today, whether they backtrack tomorrow or not is another matter.

 

I’m asthmatic and before the first press conference where he told me to stay home I was pressing to work from home for weeks but I was told under no uncertain terms that what the government says goes.

 

When the lockdown was starting and people were being encouraged to work from home, my ex asked to work from home as she has significant health issues and our daughter's school had shut down.

 

Even when it was perfectly feasible for her to work from home, she had to argue her case quite forcibly. In her case, it wasn't even her employer who caused the problem - it was her line manager, presumably protecting her own reputation by not making it easy for people to stay away from the workplace.

 

Sorry, @Strokes, the benign scenario you describe might apply to you and workplaces you know but it won't apply to a lot of people. Some employees will feel pressurised to return even if they have issues re. safety, transport or childcare, whether that pressure comes from an employer, a line manager or even, in many cases, just from inside their own head.

 

I do appreciate that it's a massively difficult situation for the govt to handle - and the lockdown cannot last for too long, for multiple reasons. But there need to be proper plans in place to ensure safe work, safe travel, safe childcare etc.

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 minute ago, joachim1965 said:

I see where you are coming from, but ferrying kids between households is just as risky as grandparents visiting. 

Not all grandparents are over 70 and at risk.

Yeah true, but they couldn't say you can meet your grandparents if they're not old biddies

 

Hopefully there's more clarity throughout today and tonight to help clear up some confusion and answer peoples questions.

[BKLFox]

2 hours ago, SecretPro said:

He said we could sit in parks in the sun. That's not exercise. 

That’s for all those poor barstewards who have been cooped up in a 1 bed flat etc with no garden or balcony for 6 weeks and are so starved of Vitamin D they now are eligible to play for SCO or IRL due to the colour of their ghostly white skin 

[st albans fox]

44 minutes ago, oxford blue said:

And you have to meet outside the home and you can only see one at any time.

Point was made on the radio earlier that if you’re meeting one parent then you may as well meet both (assuming that they live together). It’s mixing households that’s relevant, not individuals ...... I assume that it’s easier to police individuals rather than entire households though .....  how the hell are you going to police this in any case !!!  Will be down to individual responsibility and knowing most grandparents will be desperate to see their grandkids, I can’t see that ending well! 
 

it’s a no win situation ..... can you imagine a grandparent or parent standing 6 feet away from a child who seems healthy and managing to avoid physical contact ????

[Nalis]

 

6 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

That’s for all those poor barstewards who have been cooped up in a 1 bed flat etc with no garden or balcony for 6 weeks and are so starved of Vitamin D they now are eligible to play for SCO or IRL due to the colour of their ghostly white skin 

It would take a solid 6 years to get to Irish or Scottish international levels of pastiness to be honest.

 

Life in Northern Ireland was like living in a badly lit room during 'daylight' and darkness outside of that. I'm seen as having olive skin back in Ireland but seen as pastey in England!

Edited 11 May 2020 by Nalis