The tactical foul

[Dahnsouff]

Yes, I know, there is no such thing, its just a foul ffs.

 

But for the sake of argument, the "tactical foul" is a strange thing, and it is either getting more prevalent, or perhaps is just a "thing" getting talked about a bit more.

I actually think the former, a further differentiating factor between clubs, the better you are at them, the more you will get away with them, the better off you are.

 

Its not coming from the Villa game, though they were real nawty with them, but all over the league, from Burnley to Liverpool, Man City, etc.

Hell, sure we do it too!

 

Does it risk becoming a real problem in the same?

 

The line in the sand is extremely clear, yet never enforced. A caution yes, but not followed by another caution.

FIFA, they say..

Edited 30 January 2020 by Dahnsouff

[AKCJ]

I think any intent to foul should be a booking, further attempts to foul should be a second booking.

 

I have no problem with players taking one for the team provided they're properly dealt with.

[Dahnsouff]

Think the issue is that it gets lauded as a plus, and not for what it is, a foul.

[Guest ttfn]

This from yesterday’s Athletic interview with Kourtney Hause. 
 

“The plan was to foul them, break up play. It’s part of the game. We’re old enough and experienced enough to know what we have to do. As soon as they looked like they were going to play through we broke up the play. That was the aim.”

 

Goes to show how accepted it is now that players will just come out after the game and say “yeah we realised that if we just foul them every time they attack they can’t score”.

 

Just because we do it too it doesn’t make it right.

 

 

 

 

[steveherbe]

My pet hate, even above VAR. First noticed it in the Afcon years ago, as soon as an attack broke down, team would commit a foul to stop play and get everyone back. Should be a yellow card every time, no excuses. And do it again, second yellow and a red. Hate it, even when we do it, needs stamping out - like they threatened to do with diving. Rant over, back to the hoovering........

[RowlattsFox]

Its a simple tactic, especially if you do it at the other end of the pitch quickly after a turnover in possession. Unless you completely take someone out or pull them back obviously you won't get a yellow card. They're not going to start yellow carding every foul. You can do it subtly easily, especially with the way players go down so easily. A lot of the time they take the foul rather than playing on. Its almost like they need a foul count like in basketball, how the Villa midfield got away without a booking for so long was ridiculous, even then Luiz was booked for kicking the ball away rather fouling.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

I hate it, has got worse since Pep arrived at Man City, they are terrible for it and it's something that should be clamped down on imo.

 

I'm not in favour of sin bins in general but something like that would stamp it out.

[Mike Oxlong]

If you want to see the beautiful game this sort of thing really needs clamping down on 

 

 

[Dan LCFC]

It's just another thing that you could clamp down on without inept officiating but they choose for whatever reason not to, time and time again.

[That_Dude]

Always been part of the game and will never go away.

 

Sometimes you must take one for the team and it's generally the midfielders who get the dirty job done. Happens in every game. Fernandinho and Guardiola's teams are masters at it but aren't the first to use it. 

[NotTheMarketLeader]

5 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

It's just another thing that you could clamp down on without inept officiating but they choose for whatever reason not to, time and time again.

Villa actually pulled our players back three of four times in the first half with no cards sighted.

 

Its bullshit. Add that to the VAR debacle and you have to say the referees are simply not applying the rules of the game; and as a result often impacting results.

[NotTheMarketLeader]

Just now, That_Dude said:

Always been part of the game and will never go away.

 

Sometimes you must take one for the team and it's generally the midfielders who get the dirty job done. Happens in every game. Fernandinho and Guardiola's teams are masters at it but aren't the first to use it. 

The point is they are doing it and not getting booked, and so it continues to the detriment of the game as a whole.

[davieG]

Just now, That_Dude said:

Always been part of the game and will never go away.

 

Sometimes you must take one for the team and it's generally the midfielders who get the dirty job done. Happens in every game. Fernandinho and Guardiola's teams are masters at it but aren't the first to use it. 

Maybe it has always been there but from my memory it was not significant now it's almost endemic and is definitely spoiling games not just results but the enjoyment.

[talking_goldfish]

This is a big area of the game that needs to be changed and I think we do need to introduce sin bins for this type of foul. Once teams know they can't get away with it it will happen a lot less and the game will flow much better.

 

Just because we do it too doesn't make it ok, it is something that needs to be stamped out.

[That_Dude]

20 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

The point is they are doing it and not getting booked, and so it continues to the detriment of the game as a whole.

 

19 minutes ago, davieG said:

Maybe it has always been there but from my memory it was not significant now it's almost endemic and is definitely spoiling games not just results but the enjoyment.

I do agree on the whole with both of you. I just don't see how to get rid of it unless they start red carding them. Tactical foul should be booked and it almost always is when it's obvious, but it's still let to the referee's appreciation the rest of the time. Don't also forget that the game became much, much faster. They introduced booking for simulations but did it change anything really? Players are falling over at the slightest touch. Whether it's because they're faster with the ball and/or diving became part of the game, we're still seeing players, falling and trying to get a foul at every game. 

Edited 30 January 2020 by That_Dude

[Dan LCFC]

20 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

Villa actually pulled our players back three of four times in the first half with no cards sighted.

 

Its bullshit. Add that to the VAR debacle and you have to say the referees are simply not applying the rules of the game; and as a result often impacting results.

It just baffles me that with VAR you don't clamp down on more of this, or award more bookings as the game goes. For me you could easily have somebody on VAR watching the game and informing the referee "Fabinho needs to be booked for a tactical foul" and at the next break, the referee gives him a yellow.

 

I just don't get why with VAR they don't really clamp down on things like this. What is the reason for it?

[Rusko187]

No major objections to it, as long as it is managed correctly! For fouls deemed intentional or potentially dangerous it deserves a booking. If that was Villas game plan, to foul us I'd have expected the referee to be issuing more cards, but this just goes into a deeper problem with English Football... the quality of the officiating, it's frankly a total shambles in it's current state.

 

A tactical foul done correctly was the lad from Real Madrid, bringing down Alvaro Morata and taking one for the team... granted you'd be fuming if it was against you, but even Diego Simeone had no complaints on that... he sacrificed himself to keep his team in the game.

 

Edit:

 I would expect any player in our team to do the same, and I would applaud... likewise, if it happened against us, yes I would be gutted but would totally understand the decision.

Edited 30 January 2020 by Rusko187

[Dahnsouff]

IMHO. The only way to resolve this is unfortunately retrospectively.

If after review, your team is found to have submitted cynical, tactical fouls with the sole intention of disabling your opponents movement, breaks, goal scoring opportunities, then the punishment should be club wide with player suspension(s) issued post match.

It can be too difficult to make a valid conclusion during a match.

The message would get there, even if it took time.

[Guest ttfn]

32 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

 

I do agree on the whole with both of you. I just don't see how to get rid of it unless they start red carding them. Tactical foul should be booked and it almost always is when it's obvious, but it's still let to the referee's appreciation the rest of the time. Don't also forget that the game became much, much faster. They introduced booking for simulations but did it change anything really? Players are falling over at the slightest touch. Whether it's because they're faster with the ball and/or diving became part of the game, we're still seeing players, falling and trying to get a foul at every game. 

I think part of the problem is that even a booking doesn’t massively disincentive it as a tactic.

 

My suggestion is that if a player commits a foul outside the penalty area with no intention of winning the ball, a free kick is awarded from the position of the attacking team’s choosing. People would think twice about a sly trip 60 yards from goal if the ball got moved forward to the edge of the D at the other end of the pitch.

[Guest Fktf]

Hate it as much as I hate diving.

 

Quite like the idea of a sin bin for tactical fouls. I also wouldn't mind seeing penalty goals and reds given for things like that Atletico video above either. Teams will always tactically foul so long as the benefits of doing it far outweigh the punishment (as we currently have), so we need to up the punishment. Unless you see it as part of the game, in which you're going to hate these ideas!   

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

IMHO. The only way to resolve this is unfortunately retrospectively.

If after review, your team is found to have submitted cynical, tactical fouls with the sole intention of disabling your opponents movement, breaks, goal scoring opportunities, then the punishment should be club wide with player suspension(s) issued post match.

It can be too difficult to make a valid conclusion during a match.

The message would get there, even if it took time.

How do you prove that the tactical fouling was pre meditated?  I cannot see how this can be resolved other than to introduce something like they have in basketball whereby after a certain number of infringements, the next foul is pen, irrespective of where it occurs. that will simply encourage players not staying on their feet with any contact and then you have another problem ....
 

I can’t really think how you enforce it - you don’t want players being sent off for someone in front of them slowing down and falling over when they feel any contact in their backside 
 

maybe there is a way of monitoring fouls committed within five seconds of possession t/over which aren’t yellow card offences and totting them up - once they go over a certain number, the next one is a straight yellow, irrelevant of how bad/where/who

 

 

[AllGoneTitsSchlupp]

I remember Xhaka getting sent off for it a couple of seasons ago by Jon Moss. Moss got pelters for it from Wenger (obviously). But that is the only way to stop it. Same with diving. Red. Off. Cya.

[Dahnsouff]

25 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

How do you prove that the tactical fouling was pre meditated?  I cannot see how this can be resolved other than to introduce something like they have in basketball whereby after a certain number of infringements, the next foul is pen, irrespective of where it occurs. that will simply encourage players not staying on their feet with any contact and then you have another problem ....
 

I can’t really think how you enforce it - you don’t want players being sent off for someone in front of them slowing down and falling over when they feel any contact in their backside 
 

maybe there is a way of monitoring fouls committed within five seconds of possession t/over which aren’t yellow card offences and totting them up - once they go over a certain number, the next one is a straight yellow, irrelevant of how bad/where/who

 

 

Don`t actually think it would be that difficult.

Based on,

• when possession is lost, and for the next defined period of play/time
• who interferes with the counter-attacking player,
• other opposition players committing infringements on the counter-attacking teams players who intend to contribute in the counter-attack

There will be times when players collide, feet tangle, but these are quantifiable given to reasonable levels of inspection

(Something obviously VAR is magnificent at..but VAR is not live in this hindsight viewing)

 

The key would be HOW the infringing team is punished.

Maybe it is time to implement a foul count, those who pass the foul get and commit as above get a yellow card retrospectively

Realise it is not perfect, but if something could be done, it should be.

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, Dan LCFC said:

It just baffles me that with VAR you don't clamp down on more of this, or award more bookings as the game goes. For me you could easily have somebody on VAR watching the game and informing the referee "Fabinho needs to be booked for a tactical foul" and at the next break, the referee gives him a yellow.

 

I just don't get why with VAR they don't really clamp down on things like this. What is the reason for it?

One of my main quibbles is that VAR seems to exclusively concentrate on fouls in the end thirds of the pitch, with nothing in the middle getting examined, unless it's potentially a sending off offence.

 

Times I've seen fouls not given going seemingly unreviewed,, then maybe 10-12 passes later a goal. If that  foul had happened 3-4 passes before a goal, it gets scrutinized - often in far too much detail.

[Fox92]

It annoys me. Really annoys me.

 

And they now call it "tactical". No, it's a foul. Simple.

 

Fernandinho is the worse for it but Man City collectively a bad for it.

 

Pretty sure Sky started calling it "tactical" foul so they can get away with telling us how good Fernandinho is. And yeah is a good defensive midfielder but I can remember when other good defensive midfielders actually just didn't do it as much.