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[Scotch]

17 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

I think the assumption that society doesn't need protecting from you is probably fair enough if you're growing your own. 

 

If you're buying from a dealer though, even if your particular dealer at your street level isn't, the people above them are often involved in much wider and more significant crime. A very quick Google search shows us that illegal arms dealing, exploitation of vulnerable people and children, and terrorism are all widely associated with drug dealing, child exploitation is apparently rife even with cannabis dealers. 

 

So while people might think they are doing little wrong smoking a bit of dope in the comfort of their own living room, drug users also need to be aware of the background, and the way the drugs arrive to their little part of their comfy world. 

 

 

Nothing you've said here is untrue or extreme but it's worth noting that it can be applied to other things. 

 

For example...

 

Although eating a packet of white Buttons or having a wee cup of coffee in your living room is unlike smoking a doobie, in that it is legal. It is similar in the sense that although harmless, further up the chain, it can be linked to many of the things that you listed. Companies like Nestle have strong proven links to things like child abduction and slavery in the cocoa industry with law suits against them. And with their links to the Mugabe family, arms dealing, murder, and a whole lot more can be traced back to them. 

 

On top of that there is pollution, deforestation, misinformation to millions of vulnerable people in Africa and much more. 

 

So i would argue that everything you've said about the weed/drug industry and those who use it even at a base level can be applied to hundreds of millions of people around the world with the only differance being legality. 

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I don't really think tax avoidance can be compared with illegal weapons dealing and child exploitation, no, but I take your point. 

 

My response was more to the OP's claim that nobody gets hurt by cannabis use. I don't think that's necessarily true, at least not the way it is produced and distributed at the moment. Changing the law is obviously the way forward, but at present, unless you're growing your own, I think it's naive to think that nobody suffers. 

 

Regarding your last point, ultimately if there was no demand there would be no problem. Obviously though that's not the way to solve the problem, and I believe people should be allowed to use if they wish. Again, the law needs to change and production and distribution needs to be regulated. But that's a whole other conversation. 

I agree that if there was no demand there would be no production but even if demand of cannabis did disappear, the criminals in these activities would still carry on selling heroin, crack, cocaine, ecstasy etc.

There are plenty of legal things that carry dire consequences further up the chain. I just don’t think it’s fair to insinuate the end user is the problem.

[FoxesDeb]

16 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I agree that if there was no demand there would be no production but even if demand of cannabis did disappear, the criminals in these activities would still carry on selling heroin, crack, cocaine, ecstasy etc.

There are plenty of legal things that carry dire consequences further up the chain. I just don’t think it’s fair to insinuate the end user is the problem.

Well of course the other drugs would still exist, but cannabis users would no longer be breaking the law, which is how the conversation started. Cannabis use should be legal, but as I've said it's naive to think at the moment there aren't people suffering for it. 

 

I don't think I have insinuated that the end user is the problem, if I have it wasn't my intention. 

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Well of course the other drugs would still exist, but cannabis users would no longer be breaking the law, which is how the conversation started. Cannabis use should be legal, but as I've said it's naive to think at the moment there aren't people suffering for it. 

 

I don't think I have insinuated that the end user is the problem, if I have it wasn't my intention. 

That should have said part of the problem*
 

My point is, this would all still happen if the consumer of the product stopped. Like you say they could grow their own but this carries much higher risk of prosecution and punishment. The system is the problem.

[FoxesDeb]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

That should have said part of the problem*
 

My point is, this would all still happen if the consumer of the product stopped. Like you say they could grow their own but this carries much higher risk of prosecution and punishment. The system is the problem.

Are you still bitter you didn't get my ST when I moved? 

 

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about  The OP said nobody gets hurt by them smoking in their own home. I said that's not strictly true, and went on to say that I think the law should be changed, and that it should be regulated. 

 

Of course we have many many things which are legal but also have serious implications for people all over the world, but this does not negate the fact that the way cannabis is produced and distributed at present causes hurt and suffering to people too. That's all. 

 

Funny story to try and cheer you up a bit 

 

Many years ago when I was a student I lived in a house share just off King Richard's Road. I came home one day and found my car had been stolen (it was a mark 1 Astra, and it was actually broken down, you could see tyre marks on the road where it must have been dragged?!) so I called the police. I forgot about all the cannabis plants we had growing upstairs, and also about the ones we'd moved down to the kitchen. The police man came round, came inside the house, and never mentioned it. He must have known, you couldn't miss the smell, but for whatever reason he chose not to do anything about it. Very, very lucky. 

[SpacedX]

13 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

Many years ago when I was a student I lived in a house share just off King Richard's Road. I came home one day and found my car had been stolen (it was a mark 1 Astra, and it was actually broken down, you could see tyre marks on the road where it must have been dragged?!) so I called the police. I forgot about all the cannabis plants we had growing upstairs, and also about the ones we'd moved down to the kitchen. The police man came round, came inside the house, and never mentioned it. He must have known, you couldn't miss the smell, but for whatever reason he chose not to do anything about it. Very, very lucky. 

I discovered there was some quality home grown in the glove compartment which I was happy to sample before I sold it on. 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Line-X said:

Since Russia redeployed a significant portion of it's far eastern armed deployment to Belarus I was hearing on the radio it's now believed that up to 127,000 troops are amassed near the Ukraine border. This is very different to the annexation of Crimea in 2014 where plausible deniability, propaganda and internal provocation (Russian backed separatists) were all employed to justify the occupation accusing Kiev of stirring up tensions in the country's east and of violating the Minsk ceasefire agreement. The current military build up suggests that a full scale invasion is now imminent after years of skirmishes in 'occupied territory' - Donetsk (where MH-17 was shot down) and Luhansk. In response to 2014, the Obama administration backed and insurgence in Donbas, whilst NATO has increased its defenses with combat-ready battlegroups in the eastern part of the alliance, in the Baltic countries, in Latvia, but also in the Black Sea region. The Crimean peninsula and the Russian Black Sea Fleet is now connected by a road bridge to mainland Russia and there is grave concern that they also have their eyes upon regaining supremacy in the Baltic.

 

Apparently, the European Union depends on Russia for around a third of its gas supplies - and obviously sanctions following an invasion will result in the disruption of this in response. For some time Putin has been using gas as a geopolitical weapon by insisting any extra supplies go via Nord Stream 2, which bypasses Ukraine to supply Germany directly via the Baltic Sea. Ukraine is worried the push to approve this pipeline signifies a lack of political will in Europe to back Kiev’s pro-western aspirations. Putin meanwhile wants to turn back time and go back to the situation that we had 35 years ago whereby The Soviet Union negotiated special conditions with politicians of different countries. This is one of the reason that the Moscow bots beavered away for Brexit on social media and were pro-Trump, who was threatening to come out of NATO. Nord Stream 2 would make Ukraine more vulnerable to a full-scale Russian invasion by removing a deterrent for Moscow not to act. If there will be no physical transit going through Ukraine, it increases the chances of a full-scale war between Russia and Ukraine, with all the consequences of it. The United States promises to have Europe's back if there is an energy shortage due to conflict or sanctions If pipeline supplies from Russia to Europe are reduced, European buyers would need to seek cargoes of superchilled gas to compensate. U.S. exports of liquefied natural gas (LNG) are set to rocket this year to make it the world's foremost LNG supplier. Europe competes for LNG supplies from suppliers such as the United States and Qatar with top consumers China and Japan, which also face an energy crunch.

 

At a time of soaring utility bills, inflation and rapidly increasing consumer expense - an invasion of the Ukraine by Russia and the subsequent shortage of gas could mean record prices. 

 

 

Imagine, if you will, a supposedly intelligent species that is still so beholden to the asinine idea of protecting its own "tribe" alone against any threat, that in a time where there is a natural global crisis still raging and a much bigger one within sighting distance and closing fast...they would feel the need to engage in this kind of ridiculous realpolitik willy waving. I honestly don't know how the players involved can't or won't see the bigger picture, as I'm guessing they have people there much smarter than and equally able to see the future as I am.

 

A pox on all their houses.

 

 

[Strokes]

40 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Are you still bitter you didn't get my ST when I moved? 

 

After this seasons performances I think we both came out on top with no deal happening.

 

40 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

 

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about  The OP said nobody gets hurt by them smoking in their own home. I said that's not strictly true, and went on to say that I think the law should be changed, and that it should be regulated. 

 

Of course we have many many things which are legal but also have serious implications for people all over the world, but this does not negate the fact that the way cannabis is produced and distributed at present causes hurt and suffering to people too. That's all. 

 

Yeah I perhaps misinterpreted you original reply.

40 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

Funny story to try and cheer you up a bit 

 

Many years ago when I was a student I lived in a house share just off King Richard's Road. I came home one day and found my car had been stolen (it was a mark 1 Astra, and it was actually broken down, you could see tyre marks on the road where it must have been dragged?!) so I called the police. I forgot about all the cannabis plants we had growing upstairs, and also about the ones we'd moved down to the kitchen. The police man came round, came inside the house, and never mentioned it. He must have known, you couldn't miss the smell, but for whatever reason he chose not to do anything about it. Very, very lucky. 

Very lucky indeed.

 

I could tell you a similar story but with a different outcome, however seeing as the mighty fine Leicestershire constabulary have seen fit to lose my criminal records (and it’s massively beneficial) I’ll be taking that to my grave.

🤐

[Guest SO1]

3 hours ago, Line-X said:

Since Russia redeployed a significant portion of it's far eastern armed deployment to Belarus I was hearing on the radio it's now believed that up to 127,000 troops are amassed near the Ukraine border. This is very different to the annexation of Crimea in 2014 where plausible deniability, propaganda and internal provocation (Russian backed separatists) were all employed to justify the occupation accusing Kiev of stirring up tensions in the country's east and of violating the Minsk ceasefire agreement. The current military build up suggests that a full scale invasion is now imminent after years of skirmishes in 'occupied territory' - Donetsk (where MH-17 was shot down) and Luhansk. In response to 2014, the Obama administration backed and insurgence in Donbas, whilst NATO has increased its defenses with combat-ready battlegroups in the eastern part of the alliance, in the Baltic countries, in Latvia, but also in the Black Sea region. The Crimean peninsula and the Russian Black Sea Fleet is now connected by a road bridge to mainland Russia and there is grave concern that they also have their eyes upon regaining supremacy in the Baltic.

 

Apparently, the European Union depends on Russia for around a third of its gas supplies - and obviously sanctions following an invasion will result in the disruption of this in response. For some time Putin has been using gas as a geopolitical weapon by insisting any extra supplies go via Nord Stream 2, which bypasses Ukraine to supply Germany directly via the Baltic Sea. Ukraine is worried the push to approve this pipeline signifies a lack of political will in Europe to back Kiev’s pro-western aspirations. Putin meanwhile wants to turn back time and go back to the situation that we had 35 years ago whereby The Soviet Union negotiated special conditions with politicians of different countries. This is one of the reason that the Moscow bots beavered away for Brexit on social media and were pro-Trump, who was threatening to come out of NATO. Nord Stream 2 would make Ukraine more vulnerable to a full-scale Russian invasion by removing a deterrent for Moscow not to act. If there will be no physical transit going through Ukraine, it increases the chances of a full-scale war between Russia and Ukraine, with all the consequences of it. The United States promises to have Europe's back if there is an energy shortage due to conflict or sanctions If pipeline supplies from Russia to Europe are reduced, European buyers would need to seek cargoes of superchilled gas to compensate. U.S. exports of liquefied natural gas (LNG) are set to rocket this year to make it the world's foremost LNG supplier. Europe competes for LNG supplies from suppliers such as the United States and Qatar with top consumers China and Japan, which also face an energy crunch.

 

At a time of soaring utility bills, inflation and rapidly increasing consumer expense - an invasion of the Ukraine by Russia and the subsequent shortage of gas could mean record prices. 

 

 

Oh well. NATO and the US are the ones running Color Revolutions and aiming missiles at Russia. Maybe its time for a rethink. Perhaps honor the Minsk agreement and drop back to that (1991?) position that was agreed when the USSR dissolved? Moscow bots as if your government isn't one of the most immoral organizations on the face of the earth. In league with mine of course.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Oh well. NATO and the US are the ones running Color Revolutions and aiming missiles at Russia. Maybe its time for a rethink. Perhaps honor the Minsk agreement and drop back to that (1991?) position that was agreed when the USSR dissolved? Moscow bots as if your government isn't one of the most immoral organizations on the face of the earth. In league with mine of course.

I'm going to be honest, simply picking a different side to cheerlead for in this particular piece of sad idiocy (as opposed to, say, none at all) quite possibly isn't all the "rethink" it's posited to be here.

[SpacedX]

3 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Oh well. NATO and the US are the ones running Color Revolutions and aiming missiles at Russia. Maybe its time for a rethink. Perhaps honor the Minsk agreement and drop back to that (1991?) position that was agreed when the USSR dissolved? 

Because of course Russia makes no expansionist claims whatsoever to that sphere of privileged interests around its immediate periphery that was staked out in the wake of the 2008 war with Georgia - and it fully embraces and abides by the post–Cold War security order in Europe.

 

6 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Moscow bots

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/2560274/OSCAR-report-September-2021.pdf

 

12 minutes ago, SO1 said:

as if your government isn't one of the most immoral organizations on the face of the earth. In league with mine of course.

Ignoratio elenchi.

 

To return to the point, Ukraine’s government has said it will apply for European Union membership in 2024, and also has ambitions to join NATO. Zelenskyy, has campaigned on a platform of anti-corruption, economic renewal and peace in the Donbas region since coming to power in 2019. In September 2021, 81% of Ukrainians said they have a negative attitude about Putin when surveyed by RBC-Ukraine. Just 15% to the East of the country support Russia. For this reason, although an invasion is looking inevitable, I suspect that it is more likely that Russia will explore ways to destabilise Ukraine, topple the pro-western government and install Murayev as Yanukovych Mk.II

 

 

[Guest SO1]

1 hour ago, Line-X said:

Because of course Russia makes no expansionist claims whatsoever to that sphere of privileged interests around its immediate periphery that was staked out in the wake of the 2008 war with Georgia - and it fully embraces and abides by the post–Cold War security order in Europe.

 

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/2560274/OSCAR-report-September-2021.pdf

 

Ignoratio elenchi.

 

To return to the point, Ukraine’s government has said it will apply for European Union membership in 2024, and also has ambitions to join NATO. Zelenskyy, has campaigned on a platform of anti-corruption, economic renewal and peace in the Donbas region since coming to power in 2019. In September 2021, 81% of Ukrainians said they have a negative attitude about Putin when surveyed by RBC-Ukraine. Just 15% to the East of the country support Russia. For this reason, although an invasion is looking inevitable, I suspect that it is more likely that Russia will explore ways to destabilise Ukraine, topple the pro-western government and install Murayev as Yanukovych Mk.II

 

 

You quote your propaganda and I'll quote mine. The West has had its way for long enough. The results are devestation and destruction wherever we go. Time for a change to give others in our world a voice. Take a look outside our borders and look at what we have done in the name of God, freedom and democracy. We have failed.  What our governments have done to us and them disgusts me. We are all one.

 

[SpacedX]

26 minutes ago, SO1 said:

You quote your propaganda and I'll quote mine. 

It's nothing to do with me.

 

27 minutes ago, SO1 said:

 The West has had its way for long enough. The results are devestation and destruction wherever we go. 

Again, you completely miss the point. Refer to Mac's response to you. 

 

Incidentally, I think you mean devastation..and that is by no means exclusive to political blocs, states or singular governments - rather the entire world. 

 

27 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Time for a change to give others in our world a voice.

I can assure you that a dictatorship needs no assistance in that particular department. 

 

29 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Take a look outside our borders and look at what we have done in the name of God, freedom and democracy. 

Looking outside of borders - funny you should say that. 

 

31 minutes ago, SO1 said:

We have failed.  What our governments have done to us and them disgusts me. We are all one.

Absolutely - and such failure is not exclusive to east nor west, we are all culpable. 

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, SO1 said:

You quote your propaganda and I'll quote mine. The West has had its way for long enough. The results are devestation and destruction wherever we go. Time for a change to give others in our world a voice. Take a look outside our borders and look at what we have done in the name of God, freedom and democracy. We have failed.  What our governments have done to us and them disgusts me. We are all one.

 

This is not a game of tennis. Does Ukraine have right to self determination or not? Of course The West has made mistakes but do you agree that Russia has a right to bully their neighbours  I do try and understand what Russia may fear but this threat is not the way to advance their case 

[Scotch]

I don't fully understand why this is Russia/Ukraine issue is all of a sudden a massive news story when it has been going on for years. I watched an absolutely stunning documentary about it back in 2015. It's called 'a winter of fire'... I highly recommend it. 

[Foxdiamond]

15 minutes ago, Scotch said:

I don't fully understand why this is Russia/Ukraine issue is all of a sudden a massive news story when it has been going on for years. I watched an absolutely stunning documentary about it back in 2015. It's called 'a winter of fire'... I highly recommend it. 

Escalation 

[Guest SO1]

2 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

This is not a game of tennis. Does Ukraine have right to self determination or not? Of course The West has made mistakes but do you agree that Russia has a right to bully their neighbours  I do try and understand what Russia may fear but this threat is not the way to advance their case 

No. The Ukraine does not have the right to commit genocide and other assorted war crimes war crimes of Russian speaking people in its country. The American government and NATO do not have the right to overthrow a legitimately elected government by color revolution in the Ukraine.  Russia has every right to protect themselves from NATO. If NATO and the rest of Europe want to run the world by brute force then I guess we're going to see what happens. Let's hope this is all a show on NATO's part because if the Ukrainian Army invades the Donbass all bets are off. The Russians have already said they are willing to do what they have to to insure peace for their country and the citizens of the Donbass. If only we had honored our agreements we wouldn't be in this position. Non Agreement Capable. That's what the Russians call us. So apt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol

 

 

Edited 24 January 2022 by SO1

[LiberalFox]

43 minutes ago, Scotch said:

I don't fully understand why this is Russia/Ukraine issue is all of a sudden a massive news story when it has been going on for years. I watched an absolutely stunning documentary about it back in 2015. It's called 'a winter of fire'... I highly recommend it. 

It's because over 100,000 Russian troops are massed on the border. 

[Guest SO1]

1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

It's because over 100,000 Russian troops are massed on the border. 

And the US is supposedly sending 50 thousand to eastern europe. And thats not our border.

[Foxdiamond]

1 minute ago, SO1 said:

And the US is supposedly sending 50 thousand to eastern europe. And thats not our border.

Of course Putin has a brilliant record of allowing healthy debate and opposition in his own country and elsewhere? Jaw jaw is better than war war.

[fox_favourite]

Let’s face it. This was happening for a while. Each country have used different tactics to assert presence in this area. Neither NATO or Russia are innocent in all this. But this would signify the first time that there would be conflict directly between the two.

 

I think we can all agree we don’t want see conflict. The impact would be disastrous for the whole world and there wouldn’t be any winner. Where would it end?

Edited 24 January 2022 by fox_favourite

[LiberalFox]

I just think the people of Ukraine have the right to self determination. Ultimately if the west does nothing, Russia will use its military to dictate the future and that will likely mean Ukraine carved up into a Russian satellite state and weakened western Ukraine with reduced freedoms. 

 

I don't think I can remember a time during my life where a nation or alliance has overtly amassed its military and started issuing demands to the west in such a brazen way. 

[Heathrow fox]

3 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I just think the people of Ukraine have the right to self determination. Ultimately if the west does nothing, Russia will use its military to dictate the future and that will likely mean Ukraine carved up into a Russian satellite state and weakened western Ukraine with reduced freedoms. 

 

I don't think I can remember a time during my life where a nation or alliance has overtly amassed its military and started issuing demands to the west in such a brazen way. 

Then maybe brush up on your history.Russia gets very sensitive when western powers start creeping east.This ones on NATO.

[LiberalFox]

1 minute ago, Heathrow fox said:

Then maybe brush up on your history.Russia gets very sensitive when western powers start creeping east.This ones on NATO.

So you don't believe Ukrainians deserve the right to self determination?

 

 

[doverfox]

22 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

So you don't believe Ukrainians deserve the right to self determination?

 

 

Do you believe North Korea,  Cuba and Iran should be allowed nuclear weapons for their own protection, If the government determines it in their own best interest. The west has its own double standards and agendas when and if Russia take Ukraine, China will be watching and eyeing up their disputed territories.