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[FoxesDeb]

On 24/01/2022 at 12:03, Line-X said:

I discovered there was some quality home grown in the glove compartment which I was happy to sample before I sold it on. 

You're welcome. I'd love my Enigma tape back though please

[Guest SO1]

4 hours ago, Line-X said:

Different to what?

 

Russia have been encroaching on UK sovereign airspace and buzzing these shores for decades. In 2015, RAF Typhoons were scrambled to intercept two Russian Tupolev Tu-95 'Bear' bombers that flew up the Solent. In fact after Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 they then immediately staged Arctic military exercises including maritime manoeuvres with ballistic missile-capable vessels present. The response in Oslo was that these were clear messages from Moscow, do not be part of NATO's ballistic-missile defence. The UK is surrounded by a ring of Russian submarines. The Kola Peninsula, home to its Northern Fleet. Russia has also carried out similar manoeuvres in recent months, staging a major submarine exercise in the North Atlantic 2021. Russian kilo class submarines were spotted in the Irish sea last spring. RFS Rostov Na Donu, was tracked as it moved through the North Sea and the English Channel in February of last year. Russian vessels are frequently spotted in either the English Channel or the North Sea, with 150 recorded occasions of ships being detected by the UK since 2013. We'll overlook the state sponsored assassinations, sorry, sightseeing on these shores

 

Why are you so eager to portray NATO as the aggressor here? NATO is a defensive alliance and its remit is to protect its member states. All Allies reaffirmed at the June 2021 Brussels Summit that “the Alliance does not seek confrontation and poses no threat to Russia.” Pointedly, in 2002 President Putin himself stated “Every country has the right to choose the way it ensures its security. This holds for the Baltic states as well. Secondly, and more specifically, NATO is primarily a defensive bloc.”

 

On the contrary, deploying more than 100,000 Russian troops, including elite combat forces, a a substantial portion of its eastern army 4,000 miles away, and offensive weaponry with no plausible explanation, to the borders of a country that Russia has previously invaded and still occupies in places is no war game or exercise. It is a unequivocal, renewed threat from Moscow to Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. The buildup is paired with the usual active disinformation campaign designed to undermine confidence in the Ukrainian government, divide Europe and create a pretext for further Russian incursion however that may manifest itself. 

 

You didn't answer the question, I guess it must have slipped your mind. What "genocide" and what "assorted war crimes" committed by Ukraine are you referring to?

NATO/UK playing games in Russian waters. https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/06/experts-british-hms-defender-stunt-near-crimea-was-patently-illegal.html

What the Russians are doing however is not illegal.

Why is the Irish Foreign Minister so disturbed if this is so common?

[Guest SO1]

7 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 you’ve left out the point that NATO is a voluntary alliance that nations apply to join and are approved / accepted . Russia gave Crimea  and Ukaine no choice and moved into Ukrainian territory by force, killing those that tried to defend it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

Years on and we don't hear too much about any conflicts going on in Crimea. A Civil war would have surely resulted had their been the kind of conflict you describe.

[Foxdiamond]

14 minutes ago, SO1 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

Years on and we don't hear too much about any conflicts going on in Crimea. A Civil war would have surely resulted had their been the kind of conflict you describe.

I see even non Nato Sweden are worried about Russian eyes on Gotland. 

[SpacedX]

23 minutes ago, SO1 said:

NATO/UK playing games in Russian waters. https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/06/experts-british-hms-defender-stunt-near-crimea-was-patently-illegal.html

What the Russians are doing however is not illegal.

I didn't say it was illegal - although they have entered UK sovereign airspace on many occasions. It's what they do. You need to ask yourself why.

 

"Moon of Alabama (Where Barflies get together)" - Are you actually being serious?

 

28 minutes ago, SO1 said:

Why is the Irish Foreign Minister so disturbed if this is so common?

Because it has become increasingly more so over the last decade. As I demonstrated, Russia have always buzzed the coast of the UK and incurred into its waters...but increasingly under Vladimir Putin and since 2014. Any idea why? Of course you haven't. 

 

Why do you keep deviating from the point? My original post concerned Russian aggression towards Ukraine. You appear to be justifying the mobilisation of military forces to the Ukraine border by an autocratic state/borderline dictatorship..because, NATO.

 

Are you in support of a full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine and the dire consequences global ramifications of this? A simple yes or no will suffice. 

 

You still haven't answered the question - perhaps you're suffering from selective memory loss? What "assorted war crimes" and "genocide" on behalf of Ukraine are you referring to? 

[Heathrow fox]

5 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

There was a brief honeymoon period when the Berlin Wall came down . End of Cold War and freedom for those on other side of iron curtain. Then world became more scary with terror as middle east problems persist and so on. Now China and Russia flexing might again.

Yes Russia was briefly our friend again.While it had a drunk in charge who let the west rob the country at least.

There will never be peace whilst the US is in charge of the show.It won’t rest until it has forced liberal democracy on every State,and more importantly hooked on capitalism.It won’t end well.

[Heathrow fox]

9 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 you’ve left out the point that NATO is a voluntary alliance that nations apply to join and are approved / accepted . Russia gave Crimea  and Ukaine no choice and moved into Ukrainian territory by force, killing those that tried to defend it.

Russian troops were already there.They were leasing the port of Sevastopol.

[Foxdiamond]

14 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Yes Russia was briefly our friend again.While it had a drunk in charge who let the west rob the country at least.

There will never be peace whilst the US is in charge of the show.It won’t rest until it has forced liberal democracy on every State,and more importantly hooked on capitalism.It won’t end well.

Do you think the Berlin Wall coming down was good or bad 

[Heathrow fox]

17 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Do you think the Berlin Wall coming down was good or bad 

It was a good thing of course.

[Foxdiamond]

1 minute ago, Heathrow fox said:

It was a good thing of course.

I wonder if Putin thinks the same

[MPH]

2 hours ago, SO1 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

Years on and we don't hear too much about any conflicts going on in Crimea. A Civil war would have surely resulted had their been the kind of conflict you describe.

 

48 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Russian troops were already there.They were leasing the port of Sevastopol.

They of course conveniently leased it from a then pro Russian government with  a pretty much unbreakable contract for 25 years. Linked to cheaper gas prices. Which, amazingly was about to become more expensive Before the port lease in 2010.

 

 

the problem of course is that taking Crimea has been the Russian plan for many years.  They’ve been handing out Russian passports like confetti in the area and low and behold suddenly you have a  sizeable percentage of Russian ‘ citizens’ you have to go and ‘ defend’ all very strategic,  owning Crimea. 

[Zear0]

3 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

They of course conveniently leased it from a then pro Russian government with  a pretty much unbreakable contract for 25 years. Linked to cheaper gas prices. Which, amazingly was about to become more expensive Before the port lease in 2010.

 

 

the problem of course is that taking Crimea has been the Russian plan for many years.  They’ve been handing out Russian passports like confetti in the area and low and behold suddenly you have a  sizeable percentage of Russian ‘ citizens’ you have to go and ‘ defend’ all very strategic,  owning Crimea. 

When people against the motion in the "referendum" boycott the vote, you also tend to get a rather one sided vote count. 

[Strokes]

39 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

It was a good thing of course.

Not great if you liked playing walley….

[MPH]

7 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

When people against the motion in the "referendum" boycott the vote, you also tend to get a rather one sided vote count. 

especially when you torture, kill and imprison those that  stand against the motion. 

[Guest SO1]

2 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

Yes Russia was briefly our friend again.While it had a drunk in charge who let the west rob the country at least.

There will never be peace whilst the US is in charge of the show.It won’t rest until it has forced liberal democracy on every State,and more importantly hooked on capitalism.It won’t end well.

You forgot the"Neo-Liberal" A Washington specialty.

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, fox_favourite said:

And who is, in the end actually going to benefit from a world conflict? Or either of those countries starting a conflict? Every country will suffer, the planet will suffer, it’s all very selfish. I hate all this. If they want world domination, then there won’t be much of one left whether that is financially or physically 

 

7 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

I do agree. Hard to fathom what drives this quest for domination. All to easy to start a war but a lot harder to stop the conflict. Let us hope cool heads will prevail  

You'd think this would be patently obvious to such leaders, wouldn't you?

 

Is it ego that makes them ignore reality, or something else? I simply can't understand it.

[Heathrow fox]

41 minutes ago, SO1 said:

You forgot the"Neo-Liberal" A Washington specialty.

Have you ever posted any links for Professor John Mearsheimer on here?He did a quick 45 minute lecture at Chicago University five years ago,though it might as well have been yesterday as he more or less nails the current situation.
Why the Ukraine is the West’s fault.

You may well have watched it already.

[Guest SO1]

11 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Have you ever posted any links for Professor John Mearsheimer on here?He did a quick 45 minute lecture at Chicago University five years ago,though it might as well have been yesterday as he more or less nails the current situation.
Why the Ukraine is the West’s fault.

You may well have watched it already.

Thanks. I'm sure I'll find it on Youtube and post it.

[Guest SO1]

1 hour ago, Heathrow fox said:

Have you ever posted any links for Professor John Mearsheimer on here?He did a quick 45 minute lecture at Chicago University five years ago,though it might as well have been yesterday as he more or less nails the current situation.
Why the Ukraine is the West’s fault.

You may well have watched it already.

For those interested: a short intro followed by a 40 min speech and some interesting Q & A.

 

Thanks for this. He's a bit confused on what Democracy means to the Ruling Class and its masters.

Otherwise he provides a clear and concise picture of the issue at hand. A lot has happened in the past six years and I'm sure he'd agree with me that everything the US government has done has been a catastrophe for many millions around the world.

[fox_favourite]

Day by day the west are not helping with this at all! More and more aggressive statements, in my view, unnecessary and counter productive. In what way is it going to help? Are Russia going to say “oh no, sanctions -better stop!” Just going to increase their notion of doing it. Has no one learnt from past experiences. 
 

Should they not be talking things down, wanting to talk and not let this get out of hand. The US almost wants it to happen and that is the scary bit of it. 
 

For the love of god, make this stop! Happy 2022 😩 

Edited 26 January 2022 by fox_favourite

[SpacedX]

8 minutes ago, fox_favourite said:

Should they not be talking things down, wanting to talk and not let this get out of hand. The US almost wants it to happen and that is the scary bit of it. 

Disagree.

 

This is pure brinkmanship by Russia, but for all the flexing of military muscle and might, I actually don't think that the Kremlin is on a war footing. Vladimir Putin is no fool. He is also a master of coercive diplomacy. 

[fox_favourite]

5 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Disagree.

 

This is pure brinkmanship by Russia, but for all the flexing of military muscle and might, I actually don't think that the Kremlin is on a war footing. Vladimir Putin is no fool. He is also a master of coercive diplomacy. 

Ah okay, so in that view, how would you expect this to play out? Because I’m worried as hell re all this. 

[SpacedX]

4 hours ago, SO1 said:

For those interested: a short intro followed by a 40 min speech and some interesting Q & A.

 

Thanks for this. He's a bit confused on what Democracy means to the Ruling Class and its masters.

Otherwise he provides a clear and concise picture of the issue at hand. A lot has happened in the past six years and I'm sure he'd agree with me that everything the US government has done has been a catastrophe for many millions around the world.

Interesting observation in the comments section:

 

"Well, this lecture is now 7 years old, much has changed in Ukraine, and Putin is getting older. He'll be 70, soon. Western Ukraine is European in its desires and habits, and Europeanness has spread across the country. This is not the EU trying to peel off Ukraine; this is the European freedoms, opportunities, and dynamism--Europe's "soft power"--that are attracting Ukrainians, especially the younger generations. Ukrainians are increasingly prepared for democracy. They already have democratic elections and a real legislature. They will continue the fight against corruption. Nor is NATO trying to peel off Ukraine. The idea of joining NATO is gaining in popularity in Ukraine because of Russia's behavior in the past decade, its cyber warfare, its withholding gas supplies, its disinformation and propaganda, and especially its invasion of Crimea and the southeastern potion of the Donbas area. Ukraine now is more important for the world since 2014, because it is on the frontline of the fight against territorial violations of the international system established after WWII. If Putin gets away with that, why would Xi jinping not feel "entitled" to invade and take over Taiwan. He's already breached the agreement to allow Hong Kong the freedoms guaranteed to it after 1999. Would North Korea try again to incorporate South Korea, militarily? Who knows where a new trend might stop, or be stopped. It could launch a new imperial period on our planet. The West cannot be faulted for being democratic, and wealthy, relatively safe, and attractive to many, many people in the world. People around the world want that; Putin cannot understand that Ukrainians want that, too. As Mearsheimer says: Putin is a 19th century man."

 

Ironically, it is democracy and free speech that allows John Mearsheimer a voice. Remind me, where is Alexei Navalny?

[SpacedX]

10 minutes ago, fox_favourite said:

Ah okay, so in that view, how would you expect this to play out? Because I’m worried as hell re all this. 

I think the west will be forced to the table. Putin completely understands the risks of full on invasion outweigh the gains. The current brinkmanship is not solely about Ukraine. But as I suggested earlier, I suspect that it is more likely that Russia will explore ways to destabilise the country, topple the pro-western government and install Murayev as the next Yanukovych.

Edited 26 January 2022 by Line-X

[SpacedX]

7 hours ago, SO1 said:

You forgot the"Neo-Liberal" A Washington specialty.

Said the neocon