Coronavirus Thread

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, pmcla26 said:

Completely different showing your ID or a passport though, you don't have to take a vaccine that you don't want for whatever reason. You just have to have paid for your travel or be old enough, no one's forcing you to make that trip that requires a passport and if you're not old enough to get in somewhere or buy something, then that's just the way it is. Don't see how that's the same as forcing a personal decision?  

I personally find the decision much like if you want to travel to certain tropical countries and you have to take certain vaccinations. That’s a pure requirement of entry to a country. 
 

No one is forcing anyone to enter a pub, a football ground or a cinema. You are making that conscious decision in the same way you go on holiday. You pay your money, there’s certain criteria for entry. We are still arguing a premise here anyway. Rather than a reality. 
 

Perfectly get the rejection of vaccine passport etc but there is no way it should be used as justification to stop yourself getting vaccinated. 

 

Edited 22 November 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[CosbehFox]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin
 

This is very balanced away from the headline. I know a lot have argued that as it’s anonymous, it lacks proof to what the nurse is illustrating (e.g non vaccinated in hospitals). However it touches upon the choice dilemma but it taps into something I’ve feared for a while; a development of contempt in care from an understandable position. The affects being that we lose further staff from the profession - that’s a problem NHS withstanding and the argument around that 

Edited 22 November 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[fuchsntf]

29 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

I don't think the worry is about vaccinated people who have tested positive.  The worry is about vaccinated people who haven't got symptoms and haven't been tested and don't know that they are carrying covid.

But whats the % of possibility that more of vaccinated will have more/same problems as the denyers

If People are Not willing to have the vaccine....Let them stew in their Covid fanatasies..

 

[jgtuk]

35 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Why, when you're almost certain the person who's sat next to you with a negative test result in his hand hasn't got covid, but the vaccinated person with his iphone app hasn't got a clue. Also, don't forget that people are probably passing it around before they develop any symptoms so a vaccine passport and being responsible means jack sh*t. Thinking about it, you could be vaccinated, don't know you've got it because you don't have any symptoms as a result of the protection from the vaccine, and be passing it round like a lady of the night with crabs.

It's irrelevant to me as I won't be indoors with anyone outside of my group anyway.

But.

Viral load is directly related to infectiousness. Higher viral loads are more likely to lead to transmission of the virus.

Off to the dentist now so won't elaborate any more.

[fuchsntf]

23 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I personally find the decision much like if you want to travel to certain tropical countries and you have to take certain vaccinations. That’s a pure requirement of entry to a country. 
 

No one is forcing anyone to enter a pub, a football ground or a cinema. You are making that conscious decision in the same way you go on holiday. You pay your money, there’s certain criteria for entry. We are still arguing a premise here anyway. Rather than a reality. 
 

Perfectly get the rejection of vaccine passport etc but there is no way it should be used as justification to stop yourself getting vaccinated. 

 

We have had vaccine Passports, since the 1950s...The WHO issues them for People wanting to either travel to countries or some wide spread Internal regions...

Sometimes one wasnt allowed or denied entry, when certain Virus criteria was seen as Not fullfilled....

The Need has got less over the years, But doesn't mean Control & denial are still Not implemented on a regular basis..For Work & pleasure.I

Because of my (our) Remote Travels for Work & Adventure travels/expeditions...out of knowledge & Experience I have always carried a vaccine passport, since

für 70s...I would even Now consider it a Lack of common-sense,Ignorance as a person,

Ignorance of lands to be travelled & respecting their regulations in their enviroments....

Also now understanding various Governments steps or phases, to get a grip of the pandemic....just to say again loudly...PANDEMIC...

 

if there is no pandemic....Please tell me Why have  7 "Girl friends" across Europe... 2 in UK + 3 family, where ICUs are not an exciting Part of their job,Not that

they Enjoy being Part of or involviert  on the Double amount of necessary deaths, they would be normally used to...und wie Hearing regulär from collegues,

they dont know how long, they want to work through this inconcievable  long Term stress...

Please note...3 of them are usually there in birth Units ( also with life loss) but a balanced Psychology wise has been learnt over the years...

Bit Covid for Europe & horrible ICUs & deaths has just been seriously Not ca a year..!

[Spudulike]

 

BBC News - Germany Covid: Health minister's stark warning to get jabbed
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59378548

 

Edited 22 November 2021 by Spudulike

[FoxyPV]

I work for the NHS in NI and the projections are worse than the first wave for Dec / Jan 

 

We've a massive cohort of antivaxxers coupled with massive deprivation and services 5/10years worse than GB.

 

I hope it doesn't come to pass but it's looking like a clusterfk

[Guest Col city fan]

10 hours ago, Farrington fox said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You have never been required to show proof of "health status' to enter a pub restaurant cinema shop. Not anywhere I've ever been before the pandemic anyway. The use of these is divisive and will create a 2 tier society.

 

They don't even do what they're intended. You could have covid and not know it, and therefore transmit it, apparently. But because you have your QR code you could still access a venue that requires them. It makes no sense. Also, the restrictions they've had in most of the rest of Europe, have been so effective, that their case rates are now rocketing. Yet more evidence they don't work.

It’s genuinely for attitudes like this that ICU’s over the country are losing their staff in droves. The poor staff who have risked their lives in some cases, looking after patients who are gasping for breath like fish out of water, are utterly distraught at the lack of society to be bothered by any type of ‘control’, constantly bleating on about their civil liberties. 
Look at the numbers of people now not even wearing face masks. The attitude is like the pandemic is somehow ‘over’. It isn’t. Only last week two of my colleagues had to self isolate due to covid. I swear, some people literally don’t give a shite about it.

[Farrington fox]

13 hours ago, Col city fan said:

It’s genuinely for attitudes like this that ICU’s over the country are losing their staff in droves. The poor staff who have risked their lives in some cases, looking after patients who are gasping for breath like fish out of water, are utterly distraught at the lack of society to be bothered by any type of ‘control’, constantly bleating on about their civil liberties. 
Look at the numbers of people now not even wearing face masks. The attitude is like the pandemic is somehow ‘over’. It isn’t. Only last week two of my colleagues had to self isolate due to covid. I swear, some people literally don’t give a shite about it.

Col, I wasn't talking about waring face masks. But, if the situation is still so acute, why are 103,000 NHS refusing to have the jab? Given what we know I find it utterly repugnant and socially unacceptable that we should even be considering Vaccine passports in any UK domestic setting. As the weeks and months pass it will be very interesting to see how it plays out in Wales and Scotland. My suspicion is it will have no impact on cases and/or hospitalisations, but will be dire for hospitality businesses.

[jgtuk]

27 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

Col, I wasn't talking about waring face masks. But, if the situation is still so acute, why are 103,000 NHS refusing to have the jab? Given what we know I find it utterly repugnant and socially unacceptable that we should even be considering Vaccine passports in any UK domestic setting. As the weeks and months pass it will be very interesting to see how it plays out in Wales and Scotland. My suspicion is it will have no impact on cases and/or hospitalisations, but will be dire for hospitality businesses.

Can you reference the 103,000 claim as I can't find a good scource to back up that figure. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

14 hours ago, Col city fan said:

It’s genuinely for attitudes like this that ICU’s over the country are losing their staff in droves. The poor staff who have risked their lives in some cases, looking after patients who are gasping for breath like fish out of water, are utterly distraught at the lack of society to be bothered by any type of ‘control’, constantly bleating on about their civil liberties. 
Look at the numbers of people now not even wearing face masks. The attitude is like the pandemic is somehow ‘over’. It isn’t. Only last week two of my colleagues had to self isolate due to covid. I swear, some people literally don’t give a shite about it.

Nothing to do with the fact that the ICUs and the NHS in general has been underfunded for donkeys years? The working conditions they're used to for not a great salary (although they get decent pay, with a decent pension etc.)? The fact they've been overworked and understaffed for years? The fact they're told if you won't have the jab you won't be working here soon anyway? The fact it's harder for foreign workers to come over here now due to Brexit? Yes seeing some of the public not caring is probably demoralising but it's not like they've all seen that and thought **** it lets pack it in.

 

It's just the same arguments over and over again on here, we've had nearly 2 years to prepare for this day, but there's still not been a huge recruitment drive for NHS workers.

 

Also wearing a mask is literally not gonna stop you getting COVID, I know so many people who have been careful and hardly done anything, they still caught it. You'll get it regardless, your kids are bringing it home, you're getting it when travelling on public transport, you're getting it when having a beer after work and you're getting it when doing the weekly shop.

 

Take your vaccine (if you want to) and live your life.

[Leicester_Loyal]

44 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

Col, I wasn't talking about waring face masks. But, if the situation is still so acute, why are 103,000 NHS refusing to have the jab? Given what we know I find it utterly repugnant and socially unacceptable that we should even be considering Vaccine passports in any UK domestic setting. As the weeks and months pass it will be very interesting to see how it plays out in Wales and Scotland. My suspicion is it will have no impact on cases and/or hospitalisations, but will be dire for hospitality businesses.

I don't know the true figure but my old dear works for the NHS and she says quite a few on her ward are refusing the jab, whether or not they still will if they're forced to have it or lose their job is another matter, but for now there's still a few unvaccinated staff members. If the plans actually go ahead to do this, we'll be losing quite a few more NHS workers in the next 6 months.

[Farrington fox]

35 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

Can you reference the 103,000 claim as I can't find a good scource to back up that figure. 

Read it in the online Telegraph a couple of weeks ago. I've seen a reference to it on a tv news program, can't remember which one, probably ITV.

[Farrington fox]

22 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Nothing to do with the fact that the ICUs and the NHS in general has been underfunded for donkeys years? The working conditions they're used to for not a great salary (although they get decent pay, with a decent pension etc.)? The fact they've been overworked and understaffed for years? The fact they're told if you won't have the jab you won't be working here soon anyway? The fact it's harder for foreign workers to come over here now due to Brexit? Yes seeing some of the public not caring is probably demoralising but it's not like they've all seen that and thought **** it lets pack it in.

 

It's just the same arguments over and over again on here, we've had nearly 2 years to prepare for this day, but there's still not been a huge recruitment drive for NHS workers.

 

Also wearing a mask is literally not gonna stop you getting COVID, I know so many people who have been careful and hardly done anything, they still caught it. You'll get it regardless, your kids are bringing it home, you're getting it when travelling on public transport, you're getting it when having a beer after work and you're getting it when doing the weekly shop.

 

Take your vaccine (if you want to) and live your life.

You're absolutely right. Here we have 6.6 ICU beds/100,00. In Germany it's 29.

[Bellend Sebastian]

50 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

Can you reference the 103,000 claim as I can't find a good scource to back up that figure. 

As the NHS employs around 1.5 million people in the UK it's not even that significant.  It's about the same ratio of folk in the business I work for that haven't had it

[Buce]

1 hour ago, jgtuk said:

Can you reference the 103,000 claim as I can't find a good scource to back up that figure. 

 

25 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

Read it in the online Telegraph a couple of weeks ago. I've seen a reference to it on a tv news program, can't remember which one, probably ITV.

 

It may have been this, 10 days ago.

[jgtuk]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

 

It may have been this, 10 days ago.

As I suspected, it's speculation. So from what I can gather, from that number some will get the vaccination, some of them don't work face to face so won't have to vaccinate, some will be exempt and some will quit.

I have failed to find the number of staff  definitely "refusing" to vaccinate.

Any loss of staff due to refusal, however large or small, will be regrettable (and damaging) and they're both right - the NHS has been deliberately underfunded and understaffed for many years and staff morale is at an all time low. My sister is a Nurse and on the verge of quitting due to burn out, my closest friend and his Daughter are Paramedics and their situation is probably worse. The system is broken and I can't see the current (or any other!!) government even wanting to fix it.

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

As I suspected, it's speculation. So from what I can gather, from that number some will get the vaccination, some of them don't work face to face so won't have to vaccinate, some will be exempt and some will quit.

I have failed to find the number of staff  definitely "refusing" to vaccinate.

Any loss of staff due to refusal, however large or small, will be regrettable (and damaging) and they're both right - the NHS has been deliberately underfunded and understaffed for many years and staff morale is at an all time low. My sister is a Nurse and on the verge of quitting due to burn out, my closest friend and his Daughter are Paramedics and their situation is probably worse. The system is broken and I can't see the current (or any other!!) government even wanting to fix it.

 

Mrs Buce works in elderly care and the situation is at breaking point.

 

As a guide to how many NHS staff may quit, couldn't you use the numbers they lost from the care sector when it became mandatory and extrapolate from that?

[Farrington fox]

7 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

As I suspected, it's speculation. So from what I can gather, from that number some will get the vaccination, some of them don't work face to face so won't have to vaccinate, some will be exempt and some will quit.

I have failed to find the number of staff  definitely "refusing" to vaccinate.

Any loss of staff due to refusal, however large or small, will be regrettable (and damaging) and they're both right - the NHS has been deliberately underfunded and understaffed for many years and staff morale is at an all time low. My sister is a Nurse and on the verge of quitting due to burn out, my closest friend and his Daughter are Paramedics and their situation is probably worse. The system is broken and I can't see the current (or any other!!) government even wanting to fix it.

I absolutely agree. Where would anyone start. No amount of money is going to solve the problem.

[jgtuk]

13 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Mrs Buce works in elderly care and the situation is at breaking point.

 

As a guide to how many NHS staff may quit, couldn't you use the numbers they lost from the care sector when it became mandatory and extrapolate from that?

Probably. It's too depressing to be honest.

 

12 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

I absolutely agree. Where would anyone start. No amount of money is going to solve the problem.

They could begin by stopping money leaving the system to corporations and shareholders for a start. I'm not an economist but I firmly believe that profit from health services should be capped at the very least.

[yorkie1999]

25 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

I absolutely agree. Where would anyone start. No amount of money is going to solve the problem.

In order to privatise the health service, it would need to be run down and underfunded, developers do it all the time.

[dsr-burnley]

16 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

In order to privatise the health service, it would need to be run down and underfunded, developers do it all the time.

You can't privatise the NHS.  It's a fatuous argument.  Who is going to pay for the right and duty to treat everybody free of charge?

 

The NHS is the principle that all British citizens get free healthcare at point of need.  That is it.  Owning hospitals is not a core function of the NHS.  Employing people is not a core function of the NHS.  If it is a better option for healthcare that the NHS gets someone else to own the hospital and someone else to employ the doctors and nurses and administrators, then that is what they should do and it will still be the NHS as long as the service is funded out of tax.  

 

Obviously if we were to go down the German approach, for example (since Germany has been quoted above) then that would be a fundamental change and you would be fully entitled to complain that our way is better.  If you so wish.

Edited 23 November 2021 by dsr-burnley

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I don't know the true figure but my old dear works for the NHS and she says quite a few on her ward are refusing the jab, whether or not they still will if they're forced to have it or lose their job is another matter, but for now there's still a few unvaccinated staff members. If the plans actually go ahead to do this, we'll be losing quite a few more NHS workers in the next 6 months.

It's strange that (apparently) so many NHS workers don't seem to believe in a fundamental principle of healthcare.  You would have thought they would be all in favour of simple preventative medicine.

[z-layrex]

On 22/11/2021 at 11:55, Farrington fox said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You have never been required to show proof of "health status' to enter a pub restaurant cinema shop. Not anywhere I've ever been before the pandemic anyway. The use of these is divisive and will create a 2 tier society.

 

They don't even do what they're intended. You could have covid and not know it, and therefore transmit it, apparently. But because you have your QR code you could still access a venue that requires them. It makes no sense. Also, the restrictions they've had in most of the rest of Europe, have been so effective, that their case rates are now rocketing. Yet more evidence they don't work.

I don't really understand how many times this needs to be said. The vaccine won't stop you catching or spreading covid (it helps reduce it though). It stops you GETTING CRITICALLY ILL.

 

Critically ill people get admitted to already busy icu's, filling them up further. Full icu's cause entire hospital patient flows to STOP. Surgery suffers, A&E suffers, everything suffers. 

 

Icu's are less equipped than ever to admit stubborn unvaccinated covid patients because many of the experienced nurses have now quit the specialty, partly because of the pay cut we just recieved but mainly because of the stress and terrible working conditions being piled onto us by unvaccinated people.

 

I hope every day that they follow after Austria and make the vaccine compulsory.

Edited 23 November 2021 by z-layrex

[Farrington fox]

I thought I'd just throw this in. Not about the NHS necessarily. But this guy has always had a sensible opinion on all things covid. Well that's my opinion anyway. https://youtu.be/-TOso2P05Fc