Coronavirus Thread

[GingerrrFox]

20 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

BBC News - Covid Omicron: Time to consider mandatory jabs, EU chief says
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59497462

 

Surely this wouldn’t stand up in court as it would breach human rights? I don’t like the idea of mandatory anything when it comes to medical intervention. 

[z-layrex]

13 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

Surely this wouldn’t stand up in court as it would breach human rights? I don’t like the idea of mandatory anything when it comes to medical intervention. 

What right would it breach? When your choice harms others it's no longer your right.

[GingerrrFox]

4 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

What right would it breach? When your choice harms others it's no longer your right.

Well the fact that you can get COVID whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated, combined with the fact that currently, the majority of international travel is done by those that are fully vaccinated and yet Omicron has still spread out of Africa would indicate that what you have said there is bordering on lunacy for a start. So there’s no point trying to have a adult conversation with you about how forced medical intervention breaches human rights. 

[HighPeakFox]

There was an absolutely hilarious bit of irresponsible twattery in the match thread about Covid this evening - thought it was worth highlighting given that for some mysterious reason said contributor is banned from General...

[z-layrex]

5 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

Well the fact that you can get COVID whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated, combined with the fact that currently, the majority of international travel is done by those that are fully vaccinated and yet Omicron has still spread out of Africa would indicate that what you have said there is bordering on lunacy for a start. So there’s no point trying to have a adult conversation with you about how forced medical intervention breaches human rights. 

As has been gone over and over and over and over and OVER in this thread, unvaccinated people spread it more and are clogging up the ICU's, which has an unquantifiable effect on all of us.

 

When someone's loved one has a treatable stroke, but misses their window of clot busting treatment because the ambulances are queuing up at a&e, that is because of unvaccinated people prolonging this pandemic. It is directly their fault and they all have blood on their hands.

[Heathrow fox]

15 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

What right would it breach? When your choice harms others it's no longer your right.

Had no idea Greece were charging non vaxed over 60 year olds.Blimey

[WigstonWanderer]

6 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

The current strain won't disappear though surely. Won't it be a case of omicron being in addition the the delta strain.

Interesting question. Not an epidemiologist, but I would expect it to depend on a) How much more contagious the new Omicron variant is compared with Delta, and b) The degree to which an Omicron infection provides sterilising immunity against infection by the Delta strain (the cross immunity). Assuming that Omicron is significantly more contagious we can consider the possible extremes in cross immunity.

 

At one extreme, Omicron provides full cross immunity against Delta. In this case it out competes Delta due to being more contagious and once a victim has had it they can’t contract Delta, at least in the short/medium term. In this case it would displace Delta over a period that would depend on exactly how much more contagious it is.

 

On the other hand, if there was zero cross immunity, having Omicron would  provide no protection at all against Delta, and Delta would be free to thrive alongside, almost as a seperate disease.

 

Neither extreme is likely, so whether Omicron displaces Delta, and how quickly will depend on their relative reproduction rates  and the degree of cross immunity.

 

In practice I understand that Omicron does indeed appear to be displacing Delta in southern Africa. This suggests that as well as being more contagious, Omicron infection also provides some degree of immunity to Delta.

 

This also suggests that existing vaccines may well still work, as there must clearly be sufficient degree of similarity between the viruses for the immune system to recognise. Nevertheless, this is not a given, as vaccines only present part of the virus, and that similarity as seen by the immune system may reside in a different part of the virus.

Edited 2 December 2021 by WigstonWanderer

[st albans fox]

7 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

As has been gone over and over and over and over and OVER in this thread, unvaccinated people spread it more and are clogging up the ICU's, which has an unquantifiable effect on all of us.

 

When someone's loved one has a treatable stroke, but misses their window of clot busting treatment because the ambulances are queuing up at a&e, that is because of unvaccinated people prolonging this pandemic. It is directly their fault and they all have blood on their hands.

Yes but there are many illustrations in society where people’s behaviour has a negative effect on others …….but because we live in a democracy it’s accepted that unless you’re breaking the law you can just get on with it. 
 

I cannot see any way that a Tory govt would go with mandatory vaccinations 

[z-layrex]

6 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Yes but there are many illustrations in society where people’s behaviour has a negative effect on others …….but because we live in a democracy it’s accepted that unless you’re breaking the law you can just get on with it. 
 

I cannot see any way that a Tory govt would go with mandatory vaccinations 

Yes but this is a global pandemic, I'm tired of having mine and everyone else's home life, mental health and career ruined by selfish cvnts who won't just get vaccinated.

 

You are totally correct, so it needs to become law.

Edited 1 December 2021 by z-layrex

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

Yes but this is a global pandemic, I'm tired of having mine and everyone else's home life, mental health and career ruined by selfish cvnts who won't just get vaccinated.

 

You are totally correct, so it needs to become law.

It won’t - it’s anathema to the govt 

 

the surprise is that their attempt to educate the ‘uncertain’ is so pathetic …… or are govt communication shortcomings a surprise?

[SpacedX]

13 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

There was an absolutely hilarious bit of irresponsible twattery in the match thread about Covid this evening - thought it was worth highlighting given that for some mysterious reason said contributor is banned from General...

Notice when you challenge these people or outrageously ask for evidence to substantiate their claims you are either branded as condescending or stifling an opposing point of view....(insert laughing emoji ) 

 

Incidentally, after mixing with hundreds of people for 18 months and I'm pleased to report, I'm ok. I might consider a booster if they make me have one to go on holiday. 

[GingerrrFox]

19 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

As has been gone over and over and over and over and OVER in this thread, unvaccinated people spread it more and are clogging up the ICU's, which has an unquantifiable effect on all of us.

 

When someone's loved one has a treatable stroke, but misses their window of clot busting treatment because the ambulances are queuing up at a&e, that is because of unvaccinated people prolonging this pandemic. It is directly their fault and they all have blood on their hands.

If you want to talk about people who can’t get NHS treatment what about those who have to wait for treatment due to alcoholics clogging up NHS services, drug abusers clogging up NHS services, smokers clogging up NHS services, obesity issues clogging up NHS services. Where do you draw the line as to what human decisions impact on other people having access to treatment? 

[HighPeakFox]

I've just had the booster and it really knocked me sideways - hopefully I'm back to something like normal now.

[enmac]

4 hours ago, Parafox said:

Thereby supressing the original and subsequent contagious variants. Generally, IIRC from what I've read and heard, the more a virus mutates the more contagious it can be, but is less deadly. A bit like our old friend, the common flu virus and we have jabs that are adapted every year to protect against predicted mutations and this where I think the Coronavirus will end up.

Read a tweet last night from a doctor last night. Viruses apparently don't become less deadly. It's just that some people are more susceptible to certain viruses. When they die, only the less susceptible people survive who's immune system is better able to fight the virus. 

Don't know whether that's true or not but it sounds plausible. 

[Bryn]

Just now, enmac said:

Read a tweet last night from a doctor last night. Viruses apparently don't become less deadly. It's just that some people are more susceptible to certain viruses. When they die, only the less susceptible people survive who's immune system is better able to fight the virus. 

Don't know whether that's true or not but it sounds plausible. 

It’s both, probably skewed towards viral mutation. They evolve much quicker than humans do.

 

A natural end-point for a successful virus is to become highly infectious but minimally lethal thereby preserving its reservoir of hosts. I suspect in 5 years the dominant strain of Covid will be infectious but rarely fatal.

[z-layrex]

8 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

If you want to talk about people who can’t get NHS treatment what about those who have to wait for treatment due to alcoholics clogging up NHS services, drug abusers clogging up NHS services, smokers clogging up NHS services, obesity issues clogging up NHS services. Where do you draw the line as to what human decisions impact on other people having access to treatment? 

I honestly can't with this forum, I just can't. I'm done.

[dsr-burnley]

11 minutes ago, enmac said:

Read a tweet last night from a doctor last night. Viruses apparently don't become less deadly. It's just that some people are more susceptible to certain viruses. When they die, only the less susceptible people survive who's immune system is better able to fight the virus. 

Don't know whether that's true or not but it sounds plausible. 

It can't be true.  Look at Spanish Flu, 1919 and thereabouts.  It's still around, and it's less deadly, and it certainly isn't because the vulnerable have died while the survivors are immune.  Immunity doesn't pass down the generations, and I'm sure that the disease wasn't so efficient to kill all potentially susceptible victims and wipe them out of the gene pool.

[Heathrow fox]

13 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

If you want to talk about people who can’t get NHS treatment what about those who have to wait for treatment due to alcoholics clogging up NHS services, drug abusers clogging up NHS services, smokers clogging up NHS services, obesity issues clogging up NHS services. Where do you draw the line as to what human decisions impact on other people having access to treatment? 

All the causes of the ailments you mention are taxed heavily or at least will be.I like the Greeks idea.Stick a tenner a week on an average income.Should be enough to concentrate the minds.

[GingerrrFox]

9 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

I honestly can't with this forum, I just can't. I'm done.

Obesity is the biggest drain on NHS resources. Obesity is also one of the biggest causes of death in combination with COVID. So why should people who are morbidly obese and are vaccinated be more worthy of treatment in your eyes, than an unvaccinated person who is of a normal weight but has developed complications after infection? Both of these people have made human decisions. Yet one person in your eyes is fine and the other is scum of the earth. Maybe if you could look at things objectively, rather than subjectively, you would see that the world isn’t black and white. 

Edited 1 December 2021 by GingerrrFox

[Daggers]

[enmac]

23 minutes ago, Bryn said:

It’s both, probably skewed towards viral mutation. They evolve much quicker than humans do.

 

A natural end-point for a successful virus is to become highly infectious but minimally lethal thereby preserving its reservoir of hosts. I suspect in 5 years the dominant strain of Covid will be infectious but rarely fatal.

What about smallpox? 

"The origin of smallpox is unknown;however, the earliest evidence of the disease dates to the 3rd century BCE in Egyptian mummies." (from wiki). 

Last recorded case was in 1977. So this virus hung around for at least 5000 years without losing its ill effects. 

Thank goodness for vaccines. 

[z-layrex]

22 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

Obesity is the biggest drain on NHS resources. Obesity is also one of the biggest causes of death in combination with COVID. So why should people who are morbidly obese and are vaccinated be more worthy of treatment in your eyes, than an unvaccinated person who is of a normal weight but has developed complications after infection? Both of these people have made human decisions. Yet one person in your eyes is fine and the other is scum of the earth. Maybe if you could look at things objectively, rather than subjectively, you would see that the world isn’t black and white. 

Because fat people and smokers have never caused acute care to become the steaming pile of burnt out shit it is today, but unvaccinated covid patients are absolutely the reason. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I wish, I wish you could see the standards we have dropped to.

Edited 1 December 2021 by z-layrex

[GingerrrFox]

2 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

Because fat people and smokers have never caused acute care to become the steaming pile of burnt out shit it is today, but unvaccinated covid patients are absolutely the reason. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I wish, I wish you could see the standards we have dropped to.

“Unvaccinated covid patients are absolutely the reason”. So not 1 person currently admitted in hospital due to COVID is vaccinated? The ONS are just lying on statistics are they? Never mind that the over whelming majority of people admitted to hospital are over 65, which funnily enough is also the highest % demographic of the population that are vaccinated. 
 

But of course you are right, I’m the one who hasn’t got any idea on this issue. 

[dsr-burnley]

7 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

“Unvaccinated covid patients are absolutely the reason”. So not 1 person currently admitted in hospital due to COVID is vaccinated? The ONS are just lying on statistics are they? Never mind that the over whelming majority of people admitted to hospital are over 65, which funnily enough is also the highest % demographic of the population that are vaccinated. 
 

But of course you are right, I’m the one who hasn’t got any idea on this issue. 

That's an illogical non sequitur. 

 

One. You are completely ignoring the difference between admission to hospital and beiong treated in intensive care.

Two.  Saying that unvaccinated covid patients are the reason for clogging up intensivve care, is not saying that everyone in intensive car is an unvaccinated coivid patient, or even that every covid patient in intensive care is unvaccinated.  I have little idea how anyone could be foolish enough not to realise that.

Three.  Older, frailer people suffer more from disease than younger, fitter people.  Give yourself a Sybil Fawlty bonus for stating the bleeding obvious.

 

I agree your last point.

 

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, GingerrrFox said:

If you want to talk about people who can’t get NHS treatment what about those who have to wait for treatment due to alcoholics clogging up NHS services, drug abusers clogging up NHS services, smokers clogging up NHS services, obesity issues clogging up NHS services. Where do you draw the line as to what human decisions impact on other people having access to treatment? 

If these conditions could be prevented or cured by something as simple as getting vaccinated then I would indeed expect such people to do so or face the consequences.

 

In view of the additional costs to health services of the unvaccinated, it is not unreasonable to expect them to pay for their healthcare, or perhaps an additional regular insurance premium ( I believe that Greece are doing something like this). Can’t see it happening in the UK though.