Coronavirus Thread

[GingerrrFox]

Just now, WigstonWanderer said:

If these conditions could be prevented or cured by something as simple as getting vaccinated then I would indeed expect such people to do so or face the consequences.

 

In view of the additional costs to health services of the unvaccinated, it is not unreasonable to expect them to pay for their healthcare, or perhaps an additional regular insurance premium ( I believe that Greece are doing something like this). Can’t see it happening in the UK though.

Playing Devil’s advocate. Should obese people pay an additional regular insurance premium as statistically they are the biggest drain on the National Health Service?

[WigstonWanderer]

3 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

Playing Devil’s advocate. Should obese people pay an additional regular insurance premium as statistically they are the biggest drain on the National Health Service?

Reread what I wrote. If the answer to obesity was as simple as getting vaccinated against it then if they refused I’d say yes.

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 hour ago, z-layrex said:

 I'm tired of having mine and everyone else's home life, mental health and career ruined by selfish cvnts who won't just get vaccinated

This is completely a separate issue to making the vaccine law, the vaccination rate in this country is 75 percent of the population, yet the goalposts continually get pushed because of the new scaremongering variant. You'd have more of an issue with government controls, but I'm assuming you're onboard with them looking at your posts

 

Vaccination doesn't stop spread, nor does it prevent newer variants. A person shouldn't be forced to take something which we don't know the long term side effects of.

 

 

[dsr-burnley]

1 minute ago, GingerrrFox said:

Playing Devil’s advocate. Should obese people pay an additional regular insurance premium as statistically they are the biggest drain on the National Health Service?

I'm not sure they are the biggest drain on the health service.  I think the biggest NHS spending category is on dementia nowadays, and by definition people who live fit, healthy lives are more likely to suffer from dementia simply because they live to be older.

 

We all die, and most of us die of something that is expensive to treat.  Fat people die younger, but they don't as a rule die more expensively.  (Especially if you want to take their pension into account, since after all that's still a facet of government spending.)

[The Horse's Mouth]

Fatties should definitely pay more, if you're shoveling 8000 calories a day you can afford to pay for your own treatment 

[GingerrrFox]

10 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Reread what I wrote. If the answer to obesity was as simple as getting vaccinated against it then if they refused I’d say yes.

I know what you wrote. I was merely asking if you feel that the percentage of the population, that cost the tax payer and the NHS the most, should be required to pay more because they are statistically proven to require healthcare services more than others? The last time I checked the number of unvaccinated admissions to hospital was at 35%, so therefore 65% of hospital admissions are vaccinated. If those stats were the other way round I would agree with you that a levy should be placed on unvaccinated people. My point was that I am against mandatory vaccinations. I am not saying I do not believe people should or shouldn’t be vaccinated, I am merely saying we should respect people’s human right to choose what is put into their body. 

Edited 2 December 2021 by GingerrrFox

[z-layrex]

50 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

“Unvaccinated covid patients are absolutely the reason”. So not 1 person currently admitted in hospital due to COVID is vaccinated? The ONS are just lying on statistics are they? Never mind that the over whelming majority of people admitted to hospital are over 65, which funnily enough is also the highest % demographic of the population that are vaccinated. 
 

But of course you are right, I’m the one who hasn’t got any idea on this issue. 

I'm talking about patients admitted to critical care, not hospital admissions in general. I don't understand your point.

 

The vaccine will likely prevent you from being admitted to ICU, even if you get covid. Unvaccinated patients are filling the ICU's and also causing half the nurses to quit through burnout and compassion fatigue. This in turn has a cascade effect that causes hospitals to cease to function normally, and members of the public are harmed or die. 

 

Fat people never caused this. Smokers never caused this. The people causing this could take a couple hours out of their day to get a couple jabs and mostly prevent this. But no, they don't, because they're too selfish and wrapped up in their own little world where no one else matters because it's not happened to them yet or anyone they love.

 

Why do me and my colleagues have to slog it covered in PPE, in units at double their intended capacities, since March ****ing 2020, because idiots won't get vaccinated?

 

Do you know how many covid patients are on my 21 bed floor (designed to be 11 beds fyi), 1. 1 patient. The other 20 are unvaccinated, and every single one has covid. We are so so so tired and this is totally avoidable at this point. But nothing I say makes a difference, not until it's someone you love on my unit, and you can't visit them and you wonder why when you phone to see how they are the nurse doesn't have time to even talk to you properly.

[GingerrrFox]

12 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

I'm talking about patients admitted to critical care, not hospital admissions in general. I don't understand your point.

 

The vaccine will likely prevent you from being admitted to ICU, even if you get covid. Unvaccinated patients are filling the ICU's and also causing half the nurses to quit through burnout and compassion fatigue. This in turn has a cascade effect that causes hospitals to cease to function normally, and members of the public are harmed or die. 

 

Fat people never caused this. Smokers never caused this. The people causing this could take a couple hours out of their day to get a couple jabs and mostly prevent this. But no, they don't, because they're too selfish and wrapped up in their own little world where no one else matters because it's not happened to them yet or anyone they love.

 

Why do me and my colleagues have to slog it covered in PPE, in units at double their intended capacities, since March ****ing 2020, because idiots won't get vaccinated?

 

Do you know how many covid patients are on my 21 bed floor (designed to be 11 beds fyi), 1. 1 patient. The other 20 are unvaccinated, and every single one has covid. We are so so so tired and this is totally avoidable at this point. But nothing I say makes a difference, not until it's someone you love on my unit, and you can't visit them and you wonder why when you phone to see how they are the nurse doesn't have time to even talk to you properly.

Currently according to the government statistics, 931 patients across the UK are in ventilation beds. I cannot find any statistics to confirm how many of those people are vaccinated or not vaccinated. There are other factors that contribute to ICU admission alongside vaccination status and as harrowing as your experiences are, it is only a snapshot of what is happening across the entire United Kingdom.

 

You can disagree with me all you want but I stand by my comments that I am far from comfortable with governments imposing mandatory vaccinations on people when the vaccine does not stop the transmission of COVID or prevent COVID infection. If the vaccine did both of those things, then I would probably take a different viewpoint on the situation. 

Edited 2 December 2021 by GingerrrFox

[Heathrow fox]

21 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

Currently according to the government statistics, 931 patients across the UK are in ventilation beds. I cannot find any statistics to confirm how many of those people are vaccinated or not vaccinated. There are other factors that contribute to ICU admission alongside vaccination status and as harrowing as your experiences are, it is only a snapshot of what is happening across the entire United Kingdom.

 

You can disagree with me all you want but I stand by my comments that I am far from comfortable with governments imposing mandatory vaccinations on people when the vaccine does not stop the transmission of COVID or prevent COVID infection. If the vaccine did both of those things, then I would probably take a different viewpoint on the situation. 

You seem to be implying that the vaccines don’t work.How confident are you that without any vaccine to speak of,that that figure of 931 wouldn’t now be 9310 and rising?

[z-layrex]

28 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

Currently according to the government statistics, 931 patients across the UK are in ventilation beds. I cannot find any statistics to confirm how many of those people are vaccinated or not vaccinated. There are other factors that contribute to ICU admission alongside vaccination status and as harrowing as your experiences are, it is only a snapshot of what is happening across the entire United Kingdom.

 

You can disagree with me all you want but I stand by my comments that I am far from comfortable with governments imposing mandatory vaccinations on people when the vaccine does not stop the transmission of COVID or prevent COVID infection. If the vaccine did both of those things, then I would probably take a different viewpoint on the situation. 

I'm honestly gobsmacked, it's like talking to a brick wall.

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

That's the funniest thing as well, this situation has got the left batting for big pharma which is something I'd never thought I'd see

Sometimes self-interest and species-interest do align.

 

Like in this case. Or in a lot of other cases involving "natural" threats.

[st albans fox]

Covid: Trigger of rare blood clots with AstraZeneca jab found by scientists https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418123

[st albans fox]

5 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

You seem to be implying that the vaccines don’t work.How confident are you that without any vaccine to speak of,that that figure of 931 wouldn’t now be 9310 and rising?

It would - unless we were locked down 

 

GF seems to miss the point that being vaccinated reduces by 90% the chances of being hospitalised ….. isn’t that significant and therefore doesn’t that trump the fact that they don’t prevent transmission of the virus ???

 

and I’m not in the compulsory camp - I would be finding a way to educate the uncertain. The real ‘anti vaxers ‘ are beyond help and will have to take their chance. The number in their group are significant but society will cope with them not being inoculated.  The uncertain are a much larger group than the antis  

[KrefelderFox666]

6 hours ago, z-layrex said:

I'm honestly gobsmacked, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Unfortunately, this person is not the only one like that. I wouldn't waste your time and mental energy.

[Ollie93]

8 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

This is completely a separate issue to making the vaccine law, the vaccination rate in this country is 75 percent of the population, yet the goalposts continually get pushed because of the new scaremongering variant. You'd have more of an issue with government controls, but I'm assuming you're onboard with them looking at your posts

 

Vaccination doesn't stop spread, nor does it prevent newer variants. A person shouldn't be forced to take something which we don't know the long term side effects of.

 

 

 I think you're confused with the point of vaccinations. They're not intended to stop spread, nor stop you catching the disease. What they are intended for is to REDUCE the severity of said virus, in which case they are doing a good job. 

 

It becomes more of a moral issue when talking about mandatory vaccinations though, however, unless you're working in the ICU wards, I don't think any of us really have any idea.

[KrefelderFox666]

A recent study in Germany about the transmission (symptomatic cases):

https://rocs.hu-berlin.de/publication/maier-2021-germany/

 

According to this 8-9 people out of 10 who are involved in transmitting/catching the virus are UNVACCINATED. This includes unvaccinated passing on to unvaccinated (which accounts for almost half of transmissions), unvaccinated passing on to vaccinated and vice versa.

 

Only around 10% of infections happened through vaccinated people infecting another vaccinated person. As we all should be aware, yes, even when vaccinated you can pass the virus on but it is much lower risk than any unvaccinated. If 100% were vacinated (which will never happen), then, in my opinion, Covid would be impacting us like the yearly flu and we could live a "normal" life.

 

This is just infections, doesn't go into hospitalisations/ICU/deaths which would balance even more heavily on the unvaccinated.

 

Another interesting pattern to come out of German statistics is that the South and East have the lowest vaccination rates, in particular the East with only around 50% fully vaccinated (apart from Berlin who go against that trend). The burning issues right now are, you guessed it, in the South and East. ICU's are full in places, deaths are higher than in the North and West. It has got to the point where patients are being flown from Bavaria to West Germany for ICU beds.

 

Of course, this could all be a coincidence, but maybe vaccines actually work?

[KrefelderFox666]

7 hours ago, z-layrex said:

I'm talking about patients admitted to critical care, not hospital admissions in general. I don't understand your point.

 

The vaccine will likely prevent you from being admitted to ICU, even if you get covid. Unvaccinated patients are filling the ICU's and also causing half the nurses to quit through burnout and compassion fatigue. This in turn has a cascade effect that causes hospitals to cease to function normally, and members of the public are harmed or die. 

 

Fat people never caused this. Smokers never caused this. The people causing this could take a couple hours out of their day to get a couple jabs and mostly prevent this. But no, they don't, because they're too selfish and wrapped up in their own little world where no one else matters because it's not happened to them yet or anyone they love.

 

Why do me and my colleagues have to slog it covered in PPE, in units at double their intended capacities, since March ****ing 2020, because idiots won't get vaccinated?

 

Do you know how many covid patients are on my 21 bed floor (designed to be 11 beds fyi), 1. 1 patient. The other 20 are unvaccinated, and every single one has covid. We are so so so tired and this is totally avoidable at this point. But nothing I say makes a difference, not until it's someone you love on my unit, and you can't visit them and you wonder why when you phone to see how they are the nurse doesn't have time to even talk to you properly.

I mean, why would you believe people who work on the frontline? Have you not seen those social media posts that say being vaccinated is worse than being unvaccinated...

[Phil Bowman]

9 hours ago, GingerrrFox said:

But of course you are right, I’m the one who hasn’t got any idea on this issue.

Many a true word…

[SpacedX]

It amuses me when people refer to the possible unknown long term effects of a vaccine/booster whilst completely ignoring or refusing to discuss the known (and possible unknown) long term effects of contracting the virus. 

 

Returning to this though

,

13 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

A lot of people seem to be suffering from cardiac arrests. 

Is that Covid related? Jab related? Or related to the lifestyle a lot of people lead?

 

12 hours ago, GingerrrFox said:

I said this in the thread recently. There needs to be a serious investigation into what is causing this, it seems to be happening with so much more frequency in recent times. 

That's because you're more inclined to notice it and it's currently in the cross hairs of social media. Heart and circulatory diseases cause a quarter of all deaths in the UK. We had a situation yesterday in which there was a 'medical emergency' at St,Mary's which was immediately assumed to be cardiac related - hence prompting your post @UniFox21 (not suggesting that you did yourself) which then transpired not to be the case. Even though the cause of the delay was not clear, within seconds, speculation surrounding vaccination had surfaced in the match thread. On the pages of social media, that hysteria and hearsay then spills over. 

 

To stress again, there's no reason why someone shouldn't question a link with a mass vaccination programme (whilst oddly ignoring a particularly nasty global viral infection or the fact that prior to this heart failure admissions in UK hospitals had risen by a third in five years) but as @UniFox21 pointed out, there are a myriad of complex factors and comorbidities associated with this. Science isn't about mere correlation - real or perceived. Science determines causality. Doesn't mean though that the former shouldn't be a concern. 

 

In 2017 Alan Birchenall suffered a cardiac arrest and a defibrillator saved his life. 2018 Ray Wilkins died at home of a cardiac arrest. In October of the same year, Glen Hoddle suffered a cardiac arrest on the set of BT Sport, for whom he is a regular pundit, shortly after filming a preview. Immediate administration of CPR saved his life and he was subsequently taken to hospital where he had a quadruple heart bypass - all well known figures, all nationally publicised in the media, all of which would have prompted speculative posts on here had they occurred during vaccination roll out. Jeez, even Eriksen's dreadful ordeal during last summer's Euros was immediately attributed to vaccination on social media - and a few weeks ago, on this thread - even though he hadn't even had it. 

 

Bring whatever you like to this thread by way of discussion, but don't storm off in a huff when someone debunks/questions an arsenal of tweets, You Tube videos and FB/personal anecdotes, dispels your confirmation bias, challenges your claims or requests that you substantiate them. Genuine scepticism means that you will already have done this yourself.  it is not 'a point of view'  or 'opinion', nor does it invite appeal to emotion - rather, it involves balancing established facts not hearsay, and being able to critically appraise falsehoods instead of posting them here.

 

Oh, hang on....

 

16 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

I know what it means  

Good lad. I'm sure you'll be fine then. 

 

Edited 2 December 2021 by Line-X

[Soup]

1 hour ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

A recent study in Germany about the transmission (symptomatic cases):

https://rocs.hu-berlin.de/publication/maier-2021-germany/

 

According to this 8-9 people out of 10 who are involved in transmitting/catching the virus are UNVACCINATED. This includes unvaccinated passing on to unvaccinated (which accounts for almost half of transmissions), unvaccinated passing on to vaccinated and vice versa.

 

Only around 10% of infections happened through vaccinated people infecting another vaccinated person. As we all should be aware, yes, even when vaccinated you can pass the virus on but it is much lower risk than any unvaccinated. If 100% were vacinated (which will never happen), then, in my opinion, Covid would be impacting us like the yearly flu and we could live a "normal" life.

 

This is just infections, doesn't go into hospitalisations/ICU/deaths which would balance even more heavily on the unvaccinated.

 

Another interesting pattern to come out of German statistics is that the South and East have the lowest vaccination rates, in particular the East with only around 50% fully vaccinated (apart from Berlin who go against that trend). The burning issues right now are, you guessed it, in the South and East. ICU's are full in places, deaths are higher than in the North and West. It has got to the point where patients are being flown from Bavaria to West Germany for ICU beds.

 

Of course, this could all be a coincidence, but maybe vaccines actually work?

Interesting. Doesn't Pharma fund Medrxiv ? Or is that me being all conspiracy haha. 

[GingerrrFox]

https://youtu.be/3aZd6aTCAkM

 

I found this video interesting. I would like to stress again that I am not against vaccination. I am simply not comfortable with mandatory vaccination when an issue such as obesity is highly linked to hospital admission rates for COVID. Over a quarter of the population is obese and if we can start to tackle that issue effectively, we will see a knock on effect in areas such as cancer treatment, diabetes treatment and COVID admissions. 

Edited 2 December 2021 by GingerrrFox

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

Covid: Trigger of rare blood clots with AstraZeneca jab found by scientists https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418123

Interesting that this involves the vaccine getting into the bloodstream. Several months ago John Campbell was speculating about the possibility of the clotting problem being due to accidentally injecting the vaccine into a blood vessel. Apparently it’s supposed to go into muscle, but sometimes the needle hits a vessel. He suggested that the answer was to aspirate, which apparently involves sticking the needle in, then withdrawing the plunger a little to see if any blood comes back. If not the vaccination can proceed, otherwise it is aborted.

[Daggers]

10 hours ago, z-layrex said:

I'm honestly gobsmacked, it's like talking to a brick wall.

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it think, mate.

 

The only thing that will get through to these people is either suffering directly from a loss due to it or being unable to access services because of staff shortages. Even then, some will still wibble about their rights and “what about fat people” because they’re so locked in to being contrary.

 

These people have been foul to the wife in ED, I could rage.

[Raj]

11 hours ago, z-layrex said:

I'm honestly gobsmacked, it's like talking to a brick wall.

It's not worth it, I've given up trying to comprehend how these lot think.

Leave it to them, just hope they dont get the virus and suffer too much. (Genuinely mean that!!!)

[danny.]

14 hours ago, z-layrex said:

As has been gone over and over and over and over and OVER in this thread, unvaccinated people spread it more and are clogging up the ICU's, which has an unquantifiable effect on all of us.

 

When someone's loved one has a treatable stroke, but misses their window of clot busting treatment because the ambulances are queuing up at a&e, that is because of unvaccinated people prolonging this pandemic. It is directly their fault and they all have blood on their hands.

You clearly know more than me but that isn't what I've read lately. I do find it weird that a lot of the media and organisations say that the vaccines stop spread but studies seem to show otherwise? Anecdotally I know several double jabbed people who have contracted Covid and then passed it onto family members (also double jabbed).