Coronavirus Thread

[danny.]

2 hours ago, GingerrrFox said:

https://youtu.be/3aZd6aTCAkM

 

I found this video interesting. I would like to stress again that I am not against vaccination. I am simply not comfortable with mandatory vaccination when an issue such as obesity is highly linked to hospital admission rates for COVID. Over a quarter of the population is obese and if we can start to tackle that issue effectively, we will see a knock on effect in areas such as cancer treatment, diabetes treatment and COVID admissions. 

Interesting. He has just said at 1:20 that most hospitalisations in the UK are fully vaccinated. Which is counter to what @z-layrexhas previously said. Does he have incorrect data?

Edited 2 December 2021 by danny.

[danny.]

He doesn't seem like a quack:

https://metrics.stanford.edu/people/peter-doshi

 

I'm sure @Line-X has some info?

[CosbehFox]

 

6 minutes ago, danny. said:

Interesting. He has just said at 1:20 that most hospitalisations in the UK are fully vaccinated. Which is counter to what @z-layrexhas previously said. Does he have incorrect data?

Z-Layrex didn't say hospitalisations. He said ICU/ventilators are predominantly taken by unvaccinated. 

 

Strongly suspect most of vaccinated hospitalisations can be treated with the anti-viral drugs. 

[CosbehFox]

Has anyone had any experience having a PCR post-recovery? 

 

I am Day 6 in isolation. I have been extremely lucky and I feel good right now if very bored. It's felt like a heavy cold for me. Just done a LFT/anti-gen which is negative. 

 

Government advice is no PCR 90 days after infection - I am booked for Napoli away and have until Monday to make the decision. However, I am concerned the PCR will be positive and after speaking to T&T, there will be no exception for my circumstance. 10 days isolation would be expected of me. 

 

Equally as anyone returned back to the UK since the new rules were put in place on Tuesday? 

[danny.]

6 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Covid: Trigger of rare blood clots with AstraZeneca jab found by scientists https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418123

"73 deaths out of nearly 50 million doses of AstraZeneca given in the UK." I find that really hard to believe when I know of 5 people in south Leicestershire that had clots from AZ, 4 died, 1 lost use of one side of her body initially and has since recovered. Of course this is anecdotal, but 68 for the rest of the country that I don't know of (and I'm not a particularly connected person) sounds unfeasible. I've read about two more in the Mercury too.

[danny.]

9 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

Z-Layrex didn't say hospitalisations. He said ICU/ventilators are predominantly taken by unvaccinated. 

 

Strongly suspect most of vaccinated hospitalisations can be treated with the anti-viral drugs. 

Good point. So I guess more vaccinated people are hospitalised but of those the ones on ICU are unvaccinated. On of my friends who is a doctor up in Hull said with Covid if someone needs a ventilator they are on it for ages which causes problems as usually it's a short term thing. 

[danny.]

9 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Has anyone had any experience having a PCR post-recovery? 

 

I am Day 6 in isolation. I have been extremely lucky and I feel good right now if very bored. It's felt like a heavy cold for me. Just done a LFT/anti-gen which is negative. 

 

Government advice is no PCR 90 days after infection - I am booked for Napoli away and have until Monday to make the decision. However, I am concerned the PCR will be positive and after speaking to T&T, there will be no exception for my circumstance. 10 days isolation would be expected of me. 

 

Equally as anyone returned back to the UK since the new rules were put in place on Tuesday? 

No doubt I'll get slaughtered for this, but if you've had and recovered from Covid now, what is the point of isolating as you can't have it or be spreading it? The anti-gen being negative is weird if you're post recovery? Assume you tested positive before hand to be certain it's Covid?

[CosbehFox]

4 minutes ago, danny. said:

No doubt I'll get slaughtered for this, but if you've had and recovered from Covid now, what is the point of isolating as you can't have it or be spreading it? The anti-gen being negative is weird if you're post recovery? Assume you tested positive before hand to be certain it's Covid?

1) That's my point - previously UK govt has allowed exception and you present a certificate of recovery. However since the rule change, they don't want to do that. I understand why they have chosen the PCR route but it's a risk for me taking that test with a highly likelihood of a positive ( I am wondering if anyone has experience of a similar circumstance and they came back negative ?)

 

2) The anti-gen is only triggered by heavy COVID viral load, so it's not that much of a surprise. 

 

3) Yes, anti-gen/LFT positive 6 days and PCR 5 days ago positive. (which if it was omicron, I'd be told by now). 

Edited 2 December 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[SpacedX]

17 minutes ago, danny. said:

He doesn't seem like a quack:

https://metrics.stanford.edu/people/peter-doshi

 

I'm sure @Line-X has some info?

I do indeed. No, he isn't a quack, but his staged appearance on the panel in Rio De Janeiro from which this video is culled, together with the opinion pieces that he has written are highly misleading. 

 

By way of reply - I'd raise the same three simple caveats here - which are recurring themes on this thread. Subjective confirmation bias associated with You Tube, appeal to authority (again, in this case associated with the latter), and a lack of genuine scepticism/objective critical appraisal. 

 

Here you go. Someone else has already gone there, so I don't have to. 

 

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/refuting-peter-doshi-s-claims-doubting-trustworthiness-meaningfulness-of-covid-vaccine-results

[HighPeakFox]

I'm largely staying out of this, because I've had a lifetime of people who shout and build their arguments on little more than glorified rumour and confirmation bias, and then demand an equal stake in arguments to those who are actually factually more accurate and less prone to subjective or binary thinking. 

 

I'd just like to thank those of you able to discuss this sensibly, particularly those on the front line. We all owe you a great deal. 

[danny.]

6 minutes ago, Line-X said:

I do indeed. No, he isn't a quack, but his staged appearance on the panel in Rio De Janeiro from which this video is culled, together with the opinion pieces that he has written are highly misleading. 

 

By way of reply - I'd raise the same three simple caveats here - which are recurring themes on this thread. Subjective confirmation bias associated with You Tube, appeal to authority (again, in this case associated with the latter), and a lack of genuine scepticism/objective critical appraisal. 

 

Here you go. Someone else has already gone there, so I don't have to. 

 

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/refuting-peter-doshi-s-claims-doubting-trustworthiness-meaningfulness-of-covid-vaccine-results

I'll have a read of that after lunch, just re: the bit on bold, for me anyway:

 

- I don't care if something is on YouTube, television, in person, etc. personally, I'd just listen to what they are saying. The website a video is hosted on makes no difference to me. You've mentioned YouTube comments before, I never read them, they tend to be mainly waffle and nonsense from what I've seen.

 

- Appeal to authority is a valid point, but don't we encourage that? Listen to the experts. What choice do we have as lay people other than to listen to people in positions of perceived authority on a subject?

 

- I can't align a lack of critical thinking/scepticism of what he said, which seemed to be precisely that. Unless he's using made up data etc. I wouldn't have a clue either way. Seems very risky for someone in his position both at the University he works at and the MBJ

[FoxesDeb]

33 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Has anyone had any experience having a PCR post-recovery? 

 

I am Day 6 in isolation. I have been extremely lucky and I feel good right now if very bored. It's felt like a heavy cold for me. Just done a LFT/anti-gen which is negative. 

 

Government advice is no PCR 90 days after infection - I am booked for Napoli away and have until Monday to make the decision. However, I am concerned the PCR will be positive and after speaking to T&T, there will be no exception for my circumstance. 10 days isolation would be expected of me. 

 

Equally as anyone returned back to the UK since the new rules were put in place on Tuesday? 

My daughter was only a couple of weeks post covid when she needed to take a PCR to come over here, I was expecting her to still show positive but thankfully she was negative when she had the test at the airport. Her positive test was at the beginning of October, and she flew out on the 17th. 

[yorkie1999]

3 hours ago, GingerrrFox said:

https://youtu.be/3aZd6aTCAkM

 

I found this video interesting. I would like to stress again that I am not against vaccination. I am simply not comfortable with mandatory vaccination when an issue such as obesity is highly linked to hospital admission rates for COVID. Over a quarter of the population is obese and if we can start to tackle that issue effectively, we will see a knock on effect in areas such as cancer treatment, diabetes treatment and COVID admissions. 

The next queued video was interesting aswell. from feb 2021, 600,000 delta cases, 2500 deaths, 1600 of those deaths were fully vaccinated. Hardly an endorsement for getting vaccinated is it. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, danny. said:

I'll have a read of that after lunch, just re: the bit on bold, for me anyway:

 

- I don't care if something is on YouTube, television, in person, etc. personally, I'd just listen to what they are saying. The website a video is hosted on makes no difference to me. You've mentioned YouTube comments before, I never read them, they tend to be mainly waffle and nonsense from what I've seen.

 

- Appeal to authority is a valid point, but don't we encourage that? Listen to the experts. What choice do we have as lay people other than to listen to people in positions of perceived authority on a subject?

 

- I can't align a lack of critical thinking/scepticism of what he said, which seemed to be precisely that. Unless he's using made up data etc. I wouldn't have a clue either way. Seems very risky for someone in his position both at the University he works at and the MBJ

If I might interject, these two things can be addressed in the same fashion:

 

You're absolutely right regarding appeal to authority - and even those well-versed in a field cannot know everything about it. However, there are authorities and authorities on matters of science and it's easy to get them mixed up. The important distinction is that the authority that can be most trusted in this is the scientific consensus - what peer review results in, where discoveries are made and reported and (most importantly) judged by those who also know a lot about the topic. This is in the form of scientific papers and (more easily accessible) those who break them down into easier to understand segments (sometimes, indeed, in a YouTube video) but always link back to those same papers.

 

Single or even small group sources that have not been verified, even if they have expert credentials, are less trustworthy.

 

In this information-heavy era where digital information perpetuates at a massive rate, it can be bloody difficult for a layman to know exactly who and what to trust on these topics, and sometimes it's equally bloody difficult for science communicators to ensure they themselves are trustworthy too.

 

But honestly, if you want to use an appeal to authority that is a solid one, a basic rule of thumb is to see if that authority is published on the matter or not, and/or links back to those who are.

 

 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

The next queued video was interesting aswell. from feb 2021, 600,000 delta cases, 2500 deaths, 1600 of those deaths were fully vaccinated. Hardly an endorsement for getting vaccinated is it. 

It wouldn't be, if those numbers were anywhere near verifiable and weren't seemingly plucked out of the air.

[Heathrow fox]

3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

The next queued video was interesting aswell. from feb 2021, 600,000 delta cases, 2500 deaths, 1600 of those deaths were fully vaccinated. Hardly an endorsement for getting vaccinated is it. 

Couldn’t have been Feb 21.The vaccine roll had only just started.

[danny.]

5 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Couldn’t have been Feb 21.The vaccine roll had only just started.

Only for some age groups according to this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

[Nod.E]

41 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

The next queued video was interesting aswell. from feb 2021, 600,000 delta cases, 2500 deaths, 1600 of those deaths were fully vaccinated. Hardly an endorsement for getting vaccinated is it. 

I'm as sceptical as the next person r.e. Covid and as most will know, am very anti-restrictions. 

 

But come on, I bet you were one of those that were quick to specify 'WITH' Covid when the numbers were announced each day. You can't have it both ways. It's likely many of those that died who were vaccinated died WITH Covid rather than because of.

 

Regardless, the number of unvaccinated dying is statistically significant / disproportionately large in relation to the size of that population. 

 

Took a screenshot of this post at the time as I knew it would come in handy to describe the above to someone further down the line. 

 

 

[Nod.E]

44 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Couldn’t have been Feb 21.The vaccine roll had only just started.

Also this. Maybe a massive chunk of that number is people that didn't get the vaccine in time for it to take effect. Even then, they won't have been fully vaccinated. 

 

Point being, don't believe everything you read/watch on the internet.

Edited 2 December 2021 by Nod.E

[danny.]

51 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I'm as sceptical as the next person r.e. Covid and as most will know, am very anti-restrictions. 

 

But come on, I bet you were one of those that were quick to specify 'WITH' Covid when the numbers were announced each day. You can't have it both ways. It's likely many of those that died who were vaccinated died WITH Covid rather than because of.

 

Regardless, the number of unvaccinated dying is statistically significant / disproportionately large in relation to the size of that population. 

 

Took a screenshot of this post at the time as I knew it would come in handy to describe the above to someone further down the line. 

 

 

That's a great diagram. I've been trying to explain this to people too but when you talk about percentages a lot of people switch off.

[RoboFox]

 

[Phil Bowman]

1 hour ago, Nod.E said:

Point being, don't believe everything you read/watch on the internet.

Now you’re just being silly.

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

The next queued video was interesting aswell. from feb 2021, 600,000 delta cases, 2500 deaths, 1600 of those deaths were fully vaccinated. Hardly an endorsement for getting vaccinated is it. 

Even more interesting that Delta didn't arrive in the UK until March 2021.

[Super_horns]

57 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

 

Cannot see Boris doing that here tbh .

Would lose him even more good will !

 

[Babylon]

3 hours ago, danny. said:

You clearly know more than me but that isn't what I've read lately. I do find it weird that a lot of the media and organisations say that the vaccines stop spread but studies seem to show otherwise? Anecdotally I know several double jabbed people who have contracted Covid and then passed it onto family members (also double jabbed).

Studies have shown nothing of the sort. They have clearly shown that whilst peak viral load is similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated, it’s not at its peak for anywhere near the same length of time.

 

Once again you don’t seem to be able to talk in anything but absolutes. Your anecdote is pointless, nobody has said it stops ALL spread. It reduces the risk of spread.