Coronavirus Thread

[pazzerfox]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

1) numbers drop at weekends

2) don’t you think a lot of people will be ignoring having PCR tests after their positive LFT or showing symptoms so that they don’t have to isolate for Xmas ??

3) I’m suspicious how much capacity there is in the pcr system to get the number of daily tests through at the daily levels we now see 

Definitely agree with your 3rd point. My neice had pcr test a week ago and she still hasn't got the result.. meanwhile she's had to go to school still!

[ARM1968]

16 minutes ago, Line-X said:

No one is claiming that it does though. Simply that zoonotic spillover is the most likely origin and there is a growing weight of scientific data in support of this in addition to the consilience of the fields of virology, immunology and epidemiology.

 

Could you produce it? Original source please and heeding your caveat of data mining, cherry picking and confirmation bias. 

 

It appears that as I suspected, your sources originate with those that I previously mentioned, the r/w US media and the allegations concerning Fauci's involvement stem from Republican Senator Rand Paul. It is beyond reasonable doubt that China is conducting experiments into 'gain of function'. Dr Fauci, as well as being an adviser to President Biden, is the director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), part of the US government's National Institutes of Health (NIH). This body did indeed allocate grant money to Eco-Health Alliance, an organisation that collaborated with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Half a million dollars as I recall. However the research in question has been demonstrated not fall under 'Gain of Function' (even though there can be slightly differing interpretations as to what constitutes this). What it does unequivocally show is that it was a molecular level investigation of newly-discovered bat viruses and their spike proteins. When you read the papers, none of the viruses which were the subject of the 2015 study are remotely related to SARS-CoV-2, which caused the pandemic in 2020. This has been discussed innumerable times on this forum. I requested substantive evidence of a lab leak, not a media driven right wing US frenzy. 

 

Accuses someone of confirmation bias...responds with confirmation bias. 

 

But genuinely, we've seen it all before. You seem to think we haven't. As I requested, I'd simply like to see the empirical evidence that SARS-CoV-19 was as you claimed the "result of lab manipulation" and the "more informed people than us claiming that the virus likely escaped from a lab". As the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you.

 

You mean the preponderance and near entire consensus of the field of virology?

 

Of course it would. But that isn't evidence is it?

 

Ergo - in the absence of an identified species of bird, you also conclude that Avian Flu originated with a lab leak?

 

And like I say, contrary to your claim, the consilience of scientific evidence would disagree. Given that mutation and adaptation have driven the co-evolution of coronaviruses and their hosts, including human beings, for thousands of years actually by definition, the principle of Occam's Razor forces you to have no other option to conclude that a lab leak is in fact the least likely scenario. 

 

Here is a very balanced paper assessing and summarising the evidence for both, which is what science does. 

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00991-0

 

Cue inevitable unsubstantiated allegations of corporate funding and scientists being bought out.  We can go there too if you like. 

At this point your bias and delusion are frankly astonishing. None of what I have said has come from the American media - a cursory search would show you that, but it seems this is not what you wish to hear. I have looked at both sides of this in detail and my conclusion remains the same - only a madman would conclude that this virus was not accidentally released from the lab in the city where this virus broke out.  The number of coincidences are just simply too great

 

As I said there are emails, documents, reports, funding requests - the list goes on. ALL relating to work on EXACTLY the type of virus which escaped the lab. I am not doing your leg work for you because you will simply squirm and deny them. I imagine that is because you cannot accept the obvious. 
 

None of what I am saying denies the obvious and proven zoonotic origins of many virus outbreaks. Nor does it deny the potential of pandemic causing virus outbreaks from such sources in the future. Again, as I said and you hopefully will know, SARS and MERS had their animal progenitors discovered quite quickly. That is not the case with SARS-COV2. There is simply no evidence to support it currently. There is evidence to show that these transmissions happen. 
 

With the absolute lack, despite stringent efforts, to discover the animal responsible in the SARS-COV2 chain, I, quite rightly, can assume that it came from the lab. 
 

I really cannot understand your reluctance to accept this. You know the lab was working on Corona virus types. You know funding came from the NIH for gain of function research. You know that there are ample paper trails and published papers from well known scientists at the Wuhan lab detailing their research on EXACTLY the type of virus that accidentally escaped. 
 

I assume you also know that the CCP ordered a review of Bio Lab security and improved safety measures at all labs in the wake of the Covid outbreak?  Or is that just American media too. 
 

I am struggling to see your investment here, but you seem very passionate.

 

As I have said, and my position will remain such, until an actual, provable link to an animal source for the virus is discovered, I will apply common sense. 
 

If you wish to believe that the virus that broke out in Wuhan and is EXACTLY the same as those being worked on at that time in the Wuhan lab, came from a bat or a pangolin, then be my guest. I mean the odds must be a lot higher than 5000/1. 
 

Incidentally, you’re not Chinese are you?

[whoareyaaa]

 

16 minutes ago, Line-X said:

No I didn't claim the opposite. Unlike you, who I will yet again remind you, said "it came from a lab though", I didn't claim anything. I simply presented you with scientific evidence. 

 

 

You mean popular mainstream press and social media? And how have you established that? 

 

Now look at what the actual science is telling us - because contrary to your earlier claim, you haven't. 

 

Jeez, this is hard work. There is no evidence at all to show that it came from a lab. To reiterate; the suggestion that it came from a lab, although possible, like the majority of conspiracy theories predicated upon belief is unfalsifiable. The science is also as I said inconclusive but in terms of evidence and the specialism and rigour within the field of virology, it supports the likelihood of zoonotic spillover.

 

There is zero evidence in support of the lab leak theory beyond the circumstantial. 

 

 

I'll will say this 'Legend' - for various reasons, you do at least frequently bring a smile to my face. Pleased to see that it hasn't 'eluded' you on this occasion.

 

And of course you do, when has a lack of evidence ever stood in your way? 

After reading the link you posted they still can't conclusively say for certain.. 

 

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00991-0

 

We contend that although the animal reservoir for SARS-CoV-2 has not been identified and the key species may not have been tested, in contrast to other scenarios there is substantial body of scientific evidence supporting a zoonotic origin. Although the possibility of a laboratory accident cannot be entirely dismissed, and may be near impossible to falsify, this conduit for emergence is highly unlikely relative to the numerous and repeated human-animal contacts that occur routinely in the wildlife trade.

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, whoareyaaa said:

 

After reading the link you posted they still can't conclusively say for certain.. 

 

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00991-0

 

We contend that although the animal reservoir for SARS-CoV-2 has not been identified and the key species may not have been tested, in contrast to other scenarios there is substantial body of scientific evidence supporting a zoonotic origin. Although the possibility of a laboratory accident cannot be entirely dismissed, and may be near impossible to falsify, this conduit for emergence is highly unlikely relative to the numerous and repeated human-animal contacts that occur routinely in the wildlife trade.

 Read my last response to you. What part of "inconclusive" do you not understand? 

 

21 minutes ago, Line-X said:

The science is also as I said inconclusive but in terms of evidence and the specialism and rigour within the field of virology, it supports the likelihood of zoonotic spillover.

 

 

 

[Farrington fox]

They’re even bombarding us with Whitty during the commercials now. I will be having nightmares. What next, will they replace the queen’s Christmas address with Whitty’s. 

[whoareyaaa]

9 minutes ago, Line-X said:

 Read my last response to you. What part of "inconclusive" do you not understand? 

 

 

 OK I'm going bed.

[stix]

7 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

They’re even bombarding us with Whitty during the commercials now. I will be having nightmares. What next, will they replace the queen’s Christmas address with Whitty’s. 

Adverts. 

[Otis]

11 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

They’re even bombarding us with Whitty during the commercials now. I will be having nightmares. What next, will they replace the queen’s Christmas address with Whitty’s. 

I'm now convinced he's an actual robot after watching said address. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Sly said:

Nature can be devastating, then again, so can humans. 

 

Whether it was manufactured or not, it’ll never be proven; or have anyone own up to it, if they’re still alive.
 

We still have people believing that Elvis is still alive, the Earth is flat and we haven’t walked on the moon. The conspiracy on where SARS COVID-2 has come from, will rumble on for an eternity. 
 

This virus will continue to mutate and ultimately needs to run its course, until it reaches a point whereby it isn’t as lethal. How far we’re away from the endemic though, is as easy as answering the age old question on “how long is a piece of string”.

 

As a society, the world could have actually dealt with this by putting the entire world population into lockdown for 2 - 3 months fairly early into the pandemic and it would have stopped it (in theory). Would it have been nice? Not at all, however we may have seen a shorter virus time. 

Good post, but I'll just comment on the first sentence - malaria, by itself, killed more people in the 20th century than all wars in it combined.

 

Nature is much more devastating than humans could ever be, when in the mood.

 

22 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

 

Incidentally, you’re not Chinese are you?

Incidentally, you don't have an axe to grind against the Chinese based on their political structure or (perhaps) their ethnicity, do you?

 

I can't think of many other reasons why one would accept the lab leak theory as the null hypothesis given the broad scientific consensus not dismissing it, but considering it less likely than a zoonotic origin. Especially considering those in prominent places who push that theory.

[The Year Of The Fox]

[Sly]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Good post, but I'll just comment on the first sentence - malaria, by itself, killed more people in the 20th century than all wars in it combined.

Malaria is greatly aided by bloody mosquitos. 
 

Can you imagine if we ever had a nuclear war? That would strip anything we’ve seen. 

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I find your dismissiveness out of order, it isn't just about not being able to go thr boozer or down the shop. Many people have been kept apart from their loved ones for huge chunks of the last two years and to be honest once your mental health starts to suffer then it doesn't really matter what the scale of torment is, it can leave people in a shit state and difficult to recover. 

 

 

But the protesters don't even recognise the virus is a problem and put others at risk and thereby prolong what is being suffered. That is dismissive 

[Ric Flair]

2 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

But the protesters don't even recognise the virus is a problem and put others at risk and thereby prolong what is being suffered. That is dismissive 

I think you'll find a growing number of those protesters are not anti vaxx nut jobs but protesting against the restrictions that we are sitting ducks on being brought in. The video that was shared that I believe you replied to had 2 women interviewed who were every bit the complete opposite of the type you describe above. 

[ARM1968]

22 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Good post, but I'll just comment on the first sentence - malaria, by itself, killed more people in the 20th century than all wars in it combined.

 

Nature is much more devastating than humans could ever be, when in the mood.

 

Incidentally, you don't have an axe to grind against the Chinese based on their political structure or (perhaps) their ethnicity, do you?

 

I can't think of many other reasons why one would accept the lab leak theory as the null hypothesis given the broad scientific consensus not dismissing it, but considering it less likely than a zoonotic origin. Especially considering those in prominent places who push that theory.

Nope. Not at all. Very successful people. Bit repressive governmental system - but then these days, whose aren’t?  Just wondered why he is so against the obvious. 

[KrefelderFox666]

The problem we now face is that we don't just have those that comply to rules and get vaccinated and those who refuse vaccines and ignore that Covid is real. We now also have people who were in the former group that are losing trust in vaccines/restrictions because they have been consistently lied to and had things overpromised. The government/leadership has killed that. It's a very tricky situation.

 

I think right now, there are enough that comply and will be sensible. However, same place next year and it could get very difficult.

[Foxdiamond]

13 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I think you'll find a growing number of those protesters are not anti vaxx nut jobs but protesting against the restrictions that we are sitting ducks on being brought in. The video that was shared that I believe you replied to had 2 women interviewed who were every bit the complete opposite of the type you describe above. 

So what do you recommend is the best way forward?

[Fox in the North]

3 hours ago, whoareyaaa said:

Yea because they (China) have held back the data that would tell help identify the truth... obviously it hasn't been proven because of that reason... saying its came from animals to humans naturally has not been proven yet either so none of us are factually 100% correct.

But this is factual nonsense as you have no proof to justify your point of view. Whereas other people, especially @Line-X, can point to a variety of sources. 

[ARM1968]

10 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

The problem we now face is that we don't just have those that comply to rules and get vaccinated and those who refuse vaccines and ignore that Covid is real. We now also have people who were in the former group that are losing trust in vaccines/restrictions because they have been consistently lied to and had things overpromised. The government/leadership has killed that. It's a very tricky situation.

 

I think right now, there are enough that comply and will be sensible. However, same place next year and it could get very difficult.

So people who don’t want the vaccines also don’t think Covid is real?  Mate, seriously?

 

I think you will find that most of us know just how real Covid is, but we are not willing, even with that knowledge, to allow ourselves to be injected with experimental drugs. 
 

let’s be honest, if the vaccines are doing their job then the vaccinated have zero to fear from the unvaccinated. In fact it’s the exact opposite, as the vaccinated can spread the virus just as easily and in some cases, even more so. 
 

I don’t really understand why people are so angry with people making a personal choice. 
 

Are you in favour of vaccinating children as young as 5?

[grobyfox1990]

13 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

The problem we now face is that we don't just have those that comply to rules and get vaccinated and those who refuse vaccines and ignore that Covid is real. We now also have people who were in the former group that are losing trust in vaccines/restrictions because they have been consistently lied to and had things overpromised. The government/leadership has killed that. It's a very tricky situation.

 

I think right now, there are enough that comply and will be sensible. However, same place next year and it could get very difficult.

I still think the vast majority will comply, which is bonkers when you think of it logically. We have been openly mocked and laughed at for following lockdown, by those mandating we lock down. We will pretty much all be triple jabbed by the end of the year. We have the capacity to, and should all be, testing three times a week. If the British public still lock down despite all this, they will do it forever if told to. I’ll follow it but my heart won’t be in it, unlike lockdown 1 

[grobyfox1990]

3 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

So people who don’t want the vaccines also don’t think Covid is real?  Mate, seriously?

 

I think you will find that most of us know just how real Covid is, but we are not willing, even with that knowledge, to allow ourselves to be injected with experimental drugs. 
 

let’s be honest, if the vaccines are doing their job then the vaccinated have zero to fear from the unvaccinated. In fact it’s the exact opposite, as the vaccinated can spread the virus just as easily and in some cases, even more so. 
 

I don’t really understand why people are so angry with people making a personal choice. 
 

Are you in favour of vaccinating children as young as 5?

I think you’ve misunderstood what he’s saying.

 

on your last point, absolutely not in favour. It’s a disgrace we are triple jabbing healthy 20 year olds whilst tens of millions of genuinely vulnerable to covid people in the third world can’t even get hold of one dose. ‘All in this together!!’ 

[String fellow]

A lab in Beijing twice leaked the SARS virus back in 2004, but the outbreak was contained by treating those affected and quarantining all their contacts. So China certainly has form when it comes to this sort of thing. If the Wuhan lab did accidently leak the virus, using the local wet (wild-animal-cruelty) market as an excuse was extremely convenient for them. Probably, the truth will never be known for certain, except perhaps by the researchers working there and their government.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01529-3

https://theconversation.com/origins-of-sars-cov-2-why-the-lab-leak-idea-is-being-considered-again-161947

Edited 19 December 2021 by String fellow

[Ric Flair]

13 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

So what do you recommend is the best way forward?

If the overwhelming majority of people being vaccinated doesn't prevent lockdowns or restrictions each year then we have to look at why and see what can be done. Can the vaccine stop the spread better? Can we do something collectively about the disparity of vaccination across the world that allows for mutations that then undoes pretty much all of the drive to be vaccinated in this country to " regain our freedom "

 

Ultimately as the goal posts keep being moved on the ticket out of this, what is glaringly obvious is just how delicate our way of life is without huge ramifications if our health service is at risk of being overwhelmed. It's now a vicious circle and it's only going to get worse as there's yet more delays on treatments and procedures and more staff leave and then never ending obsession with reporting case numbers and hospitalisations and deaths and who's not had a vaccine and how its all the unvaccinated's fault now for this continuation.

 

People are now mentally ill, mentally ill through their lives being severely altered through the pandemic who have had enough and mentally ill people obsessed and driven by fear of this hideous behemoth. I am concerned we aren't thinking straight, we as the public aren't and for sure those prats in charge of our country.

 

If we have to live the rest of our lives where we are at risk of overwhelming our health service then something  drastic has to change, either the health service has to be monumentally improved but there's something in our population size, the infrastructure, our way of life and there's some very difficult questions about when it starts to come down to the survival of the fittest if it really gets bad. One things for sure we cannot live like this long term.

[whoareyaaa]

9 minutes ago, Fox in the North said:

But this is factual nonsense as you have no proof to justify your point of view. Whereas other people, especially @Line-X, can point to a variety of sources. 

well if something has been leaked you would think all evidence would have been destroyed / hidden.. yes he can but again those sources still do not rule out a lab release which he has even admitted. 

[SpacedX]

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

At this point your bias and delusion are frankly astonishing. 

The words pot, kettle and black oddly spring to mind.

 

I am irrelevant. Stay on subject. 

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

None of what I have said has come from the American media - a cursory search would show you that

A cursory search demonstrates that this is precisely where it originated and gathered momentum.

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

,But it seems this is not what you wish to hear.  

What i wish to hear and have consistently asked for is the evidence that SARS-CoV-19 was as you claimed the "result of lab manipulation" and from the "more informed people than us claiming that the virus likely escaped from a lab". Because so far, all you have produced is precisely what I've heard before...nothing new. 

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

I have looked at both sides of this in detail and my conclusion remains the same - only a madman would conclude that this virus was not accidentally released from the lab in the city where this virus broke out.  

"Only a madman" - Reducto ad absurdium, a common tactic of the online conspiracy believer. No need for it, you're clearly far better that that. Both sides? Really? Did you actually bother to read this? That was quick. 

 

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00991-0

 

This is the summary of the scientific findings at the date of publication - These are all independently verifiable referenced and irrefutable facts. You are welcome to falsify them one by one. Again, genuinely, I'm all ears.

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

As I said there are emails, documents, reports, funding requests - the list goes on.  
 

Yes, you can say what you like. I've seen exactly the same as you. 
 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

At this point your bias and delusion are frankly astonishing. None of what I have said has come from the American media - a cursory search would show you that, but it seems this is not what you ALL relating to work on EXACTLY the type of virus which escaped the lab. 

But it doesn't. As I previously mentioned, contrary to your claim, none of the viruses which were the subject of the 2015 study are the same as SARS-CoV-2, a novel outbreak which caused the pandemic in 2020. Again this is independently verifiable and no amount of caps lock changes that. Simply saying something ad nauseum on the internet does not make it true...(although that'll be news to about half a dozen that inhabit this thread).

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

I am not doing your leg work for you because you will simply squirm and deny them. I imagine that is because you cannot accept the obvious. 
 

Again - the standard default stance of the conspiracy believer - "do your research".  As I have consistently said, I am inviting you to prove me wrong. I welcome it. Moreover, as the one making the claim, the burden of proof is incumbent upon you not me - the onus does not lie with me nor any other party to search for an absent. Further, you are not doing my "leg work" since I have already seen precisely the same as you. 

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

None of what I am saying denies the obvious and proven zoonotic origins of many virus outbreaks. Nor does it deny the potential of pandemic causing virus outbreaks from such sources in the future. Again, as I said and you hopefully will know, SARS and MERS had their animal progenitors discovered quite quickly. That is not the case with SARS-COV2. There is simply no evidence to support it currently. There is evidence to show that these transmissions happen. 

A likely origin for covid-19 is already known: it’s very close to known bat viruses. Even before the outbreak started, details of a species of horseshoe bat whose genetic code is 96% identical to SARS-CoV-2 had been published. That’s as good a match as the “missing link” that you refer to found for the original SARS. Researchers at France’s Institut Pasteur reported that three viruses were found in bats living in caves in northern Laos with features very similar to SARS-CoV-2. As 'Nature' subsequently showed , those viruses are “more similar to SARS-CoV-2 than any known viruses.

The most probable theory with the strongest precedents is the “intermediary” theory, in which a bat virus infected another wild animal that was then caught or farmed for food. To epidemiologists and ecologists in particular, the lesson of the pandemic is nearly a foregone conclusion... humans should stop encroaching on wild areas. No direct progenitor has been established in the case of the common cold or the flu either, the latter we know has been around for well over a millennia. Lab leak?

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

With the absolute lack, despite stringent efforts, to discover the animal responsible in the SARS-COV2 chain, I, quite rightly, can assume that it came from the lab. 
 

You can - but contrary to your suspicions, the informed consensus of the field of virology disagrees. 

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

I really cannot understand your reluctance to accept this. You know the lab was working on Corona virus types. You know funding came from the NIH for gain of function research. You know that there are ample paper trails and published papers from well known scientists at the Wuhan lab detailing their research on EXACTLY the type of virus that accidentally escaped. 

I don't "refuse to accept this" - it is a possibility, which is why I am completely open and receptive to evidence and keep requesting it. Currently, there is none beyond the circumstantial that I have already seen. 

 

1. Yes it was working on "coronavirus types". As were/are laboratories across the world. 

2. As I have already said, the funding did not come for 'gain of function research' at all. It pertained to a a molecular level study of spike proteins in association with newly discovered bat viruses which is all in the public domain. In spite of that, it is this that is the smoking gun that originally stoked the conspiracy theorists into a frenzy. 

3. No there are no "published papers from well known scientists at the Wuhan lab detailing their research on EXACTLY the type of virus that accidently escaped". That is a complete falsehood. If there were, you'd be able to produce them. Again, I invite you to do so. Go ahead. 

 

SARS-CoV-19 is a novel virus. 

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

I assume you also know that the CCP ordered a review of Bio Lab security and improved safety measures at all labs in the wake of the Covid outbreak?  Or is that just American media too. 

Source?

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

I am struggling to see your investment here, but you seem very passionate.

 

So do you. I have no investment whatsoever other than objective information which is why I am keen for and consistently inviting you to produce it. 

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

 

As I have said, and my position will remain such, until an actual, provable link to an animal source for the virus is discovered, I will apply common sense. 
 

I prefer to continually question my position. That is what science has taught me to do. Could you as requested present the empirical evidence that SARS-CoV-19 was the "result of lab manipulation" beyond what I have already seen - and refer me to the "more informed people than us claiming that the virus likely escaped from a lab". Can we start with the science community and the field of virology?

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

If you wish to believe that the virus that broke out in Wuhan and is EXACTLY the same as those being worked on at that time in the Wuhan lab, came from a bat or a pangolin, then be my guest. I mean the odds must be a lot higher than 5000/1. 

It isn't "EXACTLY the same as those being worked on at the time in the Wuhan lab" though...why do you keep saying that? In so doing, your entire argument is based upon a false premise. An institute of Virology anywhere in the world would be expected to be conducting research into coronaviruses. You seem to be selectively ignoring the Huanan wet market. That a laboratory leak would find its way to the very place where you would expect to find a zoonotic transmission is quite unlikely. To have it find its way to multiple markets, the exact place where you would expect to see the introduction, is unbelievably unlikely. Given that these so-called wet markets have long been identified as transmission points of viruses from animals to humans because they sell potentially infected animals, in conjunction with all that science can tell us about zoonotic spillover, that makes the laboratory origin vastly less likely. As you say, Occam's Razor. 

 

Also did I mention that there is currently no evidence that SARS-CoV-2 has a laboratory origin beyond the circumstantial. Yes, I believe I did. Won't hurt to do it again. You are pursuing a circular ad ignorantiam logical fallacy. 

 

1 hour ago, ARM1968 said:

Incidentally, you’re not Chinese are you?

No I'm not, but I'm sure that @whoareyaaa would be willing to share one of his fortune cookies with you. 

Edited 19 December 2021 by Line-X

[Spudulike]

21 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

So people who don’t want the vaccines also don’t think Covid is real?  Mate, seriously?

 

I think you will find that most of us know just how real Covid is, but we are not willing, even with that knowledge, to allow ourselves to be injected with experimental drugs. 
 

let’s be honest, if the vaccines are doing their job then the vaccinated have zero to fear from the unvaccinated. In fact it’s the exact opposite, as the vaccinated can spread the virus just as easily and in some cases, even more so. 
 

I don’t really understand why people are so angry with people making a personal choice. 
 

Are you in favour of vaccinating children as young as 5?

On a windup?