Coronavirus Thread

[fox_up_north]

11 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

New World Order obviously. 

I did think that but I'm fairly sure they were a wrestling group with Hulk Hogan in the 90s. 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

Time will tell where Darwinism takes us, and it will take us where it will without regard to anyones opinion. 

True.

 

And it will show an appreciable lack of mercy to those who believe a status quo within society can be held and do not adapt to what the Earth throws at us.

 

1 hour ago, Line-X said:

Again, a go to response I encounter frequently. It isn't about "those academics" - it isn't about any academics, it is solely about the evidence that they present. Questioning, positing a theory, a hypothesis isn't risking your job, your reputation, it's an expectation in science. Of course they believe what they are saying and of course it's right for them to say it. We absolutely should not only be raising the possibility of a lab leak but examining it as stringently as possible. With that - encouraging dialogue. However, as an academic you protect and forge your reputation through significance and rigour. You also must defend those claims and be prepared for them to be falsified. Science does not do 'opinion'. If you have one, you posit a theory, test it ensure that it is reproducible and robust. 

 

That is why we have the scientific method. Any statement must be based upon systematic observation and evidence and backed by data which is complimented and not contradicting the existing knowledge in the field. You may also question, find flaws or falsify existing scientific consensus or methodology and the greatest acclaim goes to those that successfully do. But again, this needs to be substantiated with evidence. That, is where the reputation and income comes from. No true scientist is willing to be compromised by the thrall of corporate or political interest whilst science itself has a voice of its own.

 

The theories that have been forwarded by scientists are not "alternative views", and they have a voice. The reason that they are becoming marginalised is either through falsification but increasing the growing weight of evidence to the contrary in the absence of any beyond the circumstantial. 

 

What narrative? To repeat, it is the job of science to question any narrative and certainly not subjectively manufacture one. The academics that you refer to are not doing that "for the sake of conspiracy", they are absolutely right to raise the possibility. The lab leak theory raises valid questions and possibilities which elements of the popular r/w press (originally predominately in the USA) have reduced to the banal status of conspiracy theory - because the suggestion sells. And no, of course they are not idiots, but we also must guard against appeal to authority. Andrew Wakefield was a physician, senior lecturer and honorary consultant in experimental gastroenterology for goodness sake.

 

Every claim that I come across in science gives me pause for thought...even the outlandish ones. Always look to challenge and be prepared to test your preconceptions. I therefore look at all the evidence presented and where possible, the available literature. And yourself? Here again is the paper that I referred to you. I'm suggesting that you read it because far from foisting views or opinions, it objectively collates and presents the theories behind the origin of SARS-CoV-19 and then independently references the science behind them, before weighing up and evaluating the probability based upon the available evidence that we have. Once you have read it you, together with anyone else on this thread, are welcome to falsify the science that is presented.  

 

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00991-0

 

To return to this particular claim by Dr. Chan - the science does not support it, that's all. Although the furin cleavage site is not found in the closest known relatives of SARS-CoV-2, this should not be unexpected because the lineage culminating in this virus is poorly sampled and the closest bat viruses have divergent spike proteins due to recombination. The suggestion that the Furin cleavage site is "a unique feature" is utterly disingenuous. Furin cleavage sites are scattered across the coronavirus family and present in their spike proteins. Simple evolutionary mechanisms routinely explain the evolution of an out-of-frame insertion of a furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2. This is nothing to do with "towing the line" or rubbishing "alternative views" - it's simply what the science tells us. 

I'm beginning to think that the very idea of the scientific method (and thus fact based on it), or any other system that involves consensus for that matter,  is simply anathema to some people because they genuinely believe in individualism that much. You see it so much in these folks backing of the "brave" mavericks sticking it to "the system" with misinformation or even half verified information, when the truth is that if an individual hypothesis is any good, the scientific method makes sure it becomes accepted in time anyway.

 

I've seen it before concerning climate change and other scientific matters and such beliefs, while free to be held, might spell very bad news for the future of humanity in general, at worst.

[Babylon]

2 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

People can call them what they will. They aren’t vaccines, but if you want to kid yourself I can’t stop you. 

That was YOUR quote, your posted it. 

 

2 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

These drugs are new and they are experimental, as you well know. They have never been used in humans before. And before you blather on anymore, just let me know, how long does it normally take to create, test and have a vaccine approved?

Every single drug that come to market it new and experimental FFS. That's why they go through testing. 

 

How many vaccines have had unlimited budget and been pushed to the front of every single queue going. The trials themselves followed standard procedure. 

 

And before you come up with the same old shite about it still being in trials, once again... STANDARD PROCEDURE. After licensing for general use they often follow "IV trials", which is nothing more than just monitoring use for things like efficacy, and other potential uses.

[ARM1968]

41 minutes ago, boosmanana said:

I’ve never seen someone waffle quite as much with their opinions (which they state as fact) without providing any actual evidence as @ARM1968. 
For us regular people, what difference does it make where the virus originated? It’s not going to alter how we behave on a daily basis or how we treat it. Quite frankly I’m not even remotely arsed how it happened as there’s nothing we can do about it. I’m more bothered on how we’re going to deal with it moving forwards, as that’s something that we can control, to a certain degree.

The same people who state that they won’t take the vaccine as they “don’t know what’s in it” and is an “experimental drug” surely spend all their time investigating the exact components of a Paracetamol capsule before swallowing it? Or the exact components of a bottle of coke before drinking it? 
I’m double jabbed, have had covid and have booked in for my booster. That doesn’t make me better or worse than someone who’s unvaccinated

And then go on to provide no facts. Awesome work. The facts are out there, but I guess you don’t want to find them because they puncture your bubble. 
 

I think it’s enough to say that posters on this thread are clearly polarised and invested. It makes little sense continuing, because there is enough data out there to support both sides. Whatever the outcome I wish everyone here, and in the wider community, well. We may squabble, but we are all one giant family and we need to care for each other, whatever their opinions. 
 

Good luck, keep safe and enjoy Christmas. 

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, boosmanana said:

I’ve never seen someone waffle quite as much with their opinions (which they state as fact) without providing any actual evidence as @ARM1968. 
For us regular people, what difference does it make where the virus originated? It’s not going to alter how we behave on a daily basis or how we treat it. Quite frankly I’m not even remotely arsed how it happened as there’s nothing we can do about it. I’m more bothered on how we’re going to deal with it moving forwards, as that’s something that we can control, to a certain degree.

The same people who state that they won’t take the vaccine as they “don’t know what’s in it” and is an “experimental drug” surely spend all their time investigating the exact components of a Paracetamol capsule before swallowing it? Or the exact components of a bottle of coke before drinking it? 
I’m double jabbed, have had covid and have booked in for my booster. That doesn’t make me better or worse than someone who’s unvaccinated

It makes a huge difference as to where the virus came from. We have to learn from it to minimise chances of it happening again. How can you not be remotely arsed about where something that has shut down the world and killed 100k’s of people has come from lol?!?  

[danny.]

1 hour ago, fox_up_north said:

I thought I'd heard peak nonsense when a bloke tried to tell me that the vaccine has silicone in it that, when it's injected into you, makes you property of the state (he didn't specify which one) but this is reaching.

Would it make you waterproof too?

[leicsmac]

42 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

It makes a huge difference as to where the virus came from. We have to learn from it to minimise chances of it happening again. How can you not be remotely arsed about where something that has shut down the world and killed 100k’s of people has come from lol?!?  

I think this distinction has been stated previously on here, but to repeat:

 

Scientifically, it makes a lot of difference knowing how the virus originated. Politically, it doesn't, for reasons Dunge mentioned a while back. And quite frankly I think more people are interested in the latter than the former.

[SpacedX]

3 hours ago, Zear0 said:

You're going to have to help me out here, but I fear I'm straying into the territory of Mark Twain's most famous quote here.

 This exactly what I was thinking during an exchange with another member last week, 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, danny. said:

Would it make you waterproof too?

And your boobs bigger.

[Foxesmints]

[Daggers]

3 hours ago, Nick said:

Anybody know what these three options are that civil servants have put to the Cabinet?

Wine, beer or spirits

[Kasey Keller]

1 minute ago, Daggers said:

Wine, beer or spirits

No it’s ……cheddar, Brie or Wensleydale?

[Nalis]

3 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

I thought I'd heard peak nonsense when a bloke tried to tell me that the vaccine has silicone in it that, when it's injected into you, makes you property of the state (he didn't specify which one) but this is reaching.

Thats bollocks. 

 

They are obviously government controlled microchips. The first jab is the microchip, the second is the charge on the battery and the booster is an additional recharge as the battery isnt working that well.

[SpacedX]

2 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

I think it’s enough to say that posters on this thread are clearly polarised and invested.

Because some don't post what it is you want to hear?

 

Polarised and invested? Ironic, since that is precisely what I and others on this thread have spent the best part of two years battling with. In the main, opinion over fact and emotional investment. 

 

The mission of science is not to polarise - that would be popular opinion and it is tearing our world asunder. Science challenges itself to evaluate and falsify the available evidence. The 'scientific consensus' is not a "narrative". it represents the position agreed upon at a given time by most scientists specialised in a given field based upon the available evidence and knowledge. Currently, in respect of this, the lab leak theory is the least likely. That does not mean that we should discount it. 

 

2 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

 but I guess you don’t want to find them because they puncture your bubble.  

I have repeatedly asked you to present empirical evidence that SARS-CoV-19 was as you claimed the "result of lab manipulation". I am asking you again to do this - which surely you will be eager to do to "puncture my bubble". I have also pointed out that the entire thrust of your argument is based upon a false premise. There are no, as you suggest, "published papers from well known scientists at the Wuhan lab detailing their research on EXACTLY the type of virus that accidently escaped". That is a complete falsehood. If there were, you'd be able to produce them as I have consistently asked you to do. Again, I ask you to do so. None of the viruses which were the subject of the studies that you refer to are relate to SARS-CoV-2, which caused the pandemic in 2020. SARS-CoV-2 is a novel virus. Any member on this forum reading this thread can very easily and routinely verify that. Also, the NIH allocated $600,000 grant money to Eco-Health Alliance, the organisation that collaborated with the Wuhan Institute of Virology did not relate to Gain of Function research. (Although there is huge potential, this nonetheless is an area of huge ethical concern and one which Iran, Russia and China and doubtless the USA are currently investing billions into). Finally, the bizarre observation from Dr. Alina Chan that was posted earlier this year on this thread and again this week claiming the furin cleavage site is a "unique feature" is simply untrue and has consequently been widely discredited. Science tells us that. Why haven't you ascertained that for yourself? 

 

2 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

there is enough data out there to support both sides.

There is currently no data supporting the lab leak theory simply suggestion, possibility, conjecture and circumstance. That does not by any means rule it out - because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There may be more forthcoming. However we have to go with what we know, which increasingly points in favour of zoonosis. 

 

As I suggested, read this paper - and I encourage anyone interested to do the same. It isn't 'polarised' doesn't seek "polarisation", it merely takes the theories, appraises the validity based upon the available evidence and collates the science behind it. You keep talking about people "not wanting to find facts" - yet are consistently ignoring them yourself. Here it is again:

 

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00991-0

 

Once more, the science is there for you to falsify. Science invites you to do that. Similarly - again, I am welcoming any 'facts' that you claim are out there. So far, I't's nothing I haven't seen  before and it's all circumstantial. You don't necessarily have to do it here, you can PM me. You have my word that I will spend time impartially reading any information you send....because I am genuinely interested. No, I have no investment whatsoever and no, I am not as you suggested, Chinese. 

 

3 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

Good luck, keep safe and enjoy Christmas. 

And genuinely to you. Please, whatever you do, take care with that damn Husqvarna.

 

[st albans fox]

58 minutes ago, Foxesmints said:

Tbf,  alcohol does that to a lot of people …….

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I think this distinction has been stated previously on here, but to repeat:

 

Scientifically, it makes a lot of difference knowing how the virus originated. Politically, it doesn't, for reasons Dunge mentioned a while back. And quite frankly I think more people are interested in the latter than the former.

Not sure who Dunge is and i get the logic of your argument, but personally i think we absolutely should know why we've had our whole lives turned upside down for 2 years and counting, and probably forever more. Like most things in the world i assume the whole truth will never come out, however.

[Farrington fox]

5 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

People can call them what they will. They aren’t vaccines, but if you want to kid yourself I can’t stop you. 
 

These drugs are new and they are experimental, as you well know. They have never been used in humans before. And before you blather on anymore, just let me know, how long does it normally take to create, test and have a vaccine approved?

I know 3 people who having had the Pfizer booster have developed swelling in their armpits, presumably lymph glands. 2 women 1 man. 2 have actually seen or spoke to their gp, who’ve basically told them there’s nothing to worry about. Anyone else had symptoms like these?

[KrefelderFox666]

2 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

I know 3 people who having had the Pfizer booster have developed swelling in their armpits, presumably lymph glands. 2 women 1 man. 2 have actually seen or spoke to their gp, who’ve basically told them there’s nothing to worry about. Anyone else had symptoms like these?

No but I went for a run 2 days after my booster and I was quicker than the weeks before. Call it a coincidence but I think the boosters work!

[yorkie1999]

4 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

I know 3 people who having had the Pfizer booster have developed swelling in their armpits, presumably lymph glands. 2 women 1 man. 2 have actually seen or spoke to their gp, who’ve basically told them there’s nothing to worry about. Anyone else had symptoms like these?

Could be testicle growth.

[Thefox81]

6 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

I know 3 people who having had the Pfizer booster have developed swelling in their armpits, presumably lymph glands. 2 women 1 man. 2 have actually seen or spoke to their gp, who’ve basically told them there’s nothing to worry about. Anyone else had symptoms like these?

Nope had Pfizer booster yesterday and other than a bit of an ache in the arm all fine.

[Filbert_Ross]

6 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

I know 3 people who having had the Pfizer booster have developed swelling in their armpits, presumably lymph glands. 2 women 1 man. 2 have actually seen or spoke to their gp, who’ve basically told them there’s nothing to worry about. Anyone else had symptoms like these?

 My wife had lumps in armpits also. She went to the gp and got told the same. 
they just faded away.  

[grobyfox1990]

5 minutes ago, Farrington fox said:

I know 3 people who having had the Pfizer booster have developed swelling in their armpits, presumably lymph glands. 2 women 1 man. 2 have actually seen or spoke to their gp, who’ve basically told them there’s nothing to worry about. Anyone else had symptoms like these?

Tell that to all the people who insist on prfizer over moderna. I've counted nearly 500 people who are of this persuasion. Why?!!? Unbelievable, even when told taking a pfizer over a moderna may deny somebody under 18 from getting their first or second jab if availability runs out, they still insist on pfizer. Selfishness to another level, what if said under 18 is travelling soon and needs to be fully vaccinated to travel?! I am not sure how pfizer have achieved this level of herding, but i feel a real idiot for selling out of my pfizer shares in early April, thinking AZ is will be the future. All the money appears to be in pfizer for the next 3-5 years minimum.

[grobyfox1990]

Woohoo....

Early evidence shows a “clear” drop in the effectiveness of current Covid-19 vaccines against the Omicron variant of coronavirus, according to the head of the European drugs regulator, who said it will take time to reach a consensus on whether variant-targeted vaccines will be needed.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/7de3bdd1-84a8-42ae-af37-2bbb8c584c49

[CosbehFox]

4 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Woohoo....

Early evidence shows a “clear” drop in the effectiveness of current Covid-19 vaccines against the Omicron variant of coronavirus, according to the head of the European drugs regulator, who said it will take time to reach a consensus on whether variant-targeted vaccines will be needed.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/7de3bdd1-84a8-42ae-af37-2bbb8c584c49

One of the reason why post-covid infection I haven't booked a booster. 

[SpacedX]

3 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Woohoo....

Early evidence shows a “clear” drop in the effectiveness of current Covid-19 vaccines against the Omicron variant of coronavirus, according to the head of the European drugs regulator, who said it will take time to reach a consensus on whether variant-targeted vaccines will be needed.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/7de3bdd1-84a8-42ae-af37-2bbb8c584c49

Paywall I'm afraid,

 

Nonetheless this very much echoes the previous predictions from Moderna at the end of November. mRNA vaccines can be rapidly and effectively tweaked, but it will be several months to manufacture at scale and then ship.