Coronavirus Thread

[shade]

6 hours ago, Dunge said:

Sorry, meant to reply to this earlier:

 

It is conjecture, but so would it be for the guy in the clip. And yet he’s presenting it as fact. The UK government and their scientists were only the other day reporting their latest findings on the matter, that a fourth booster is “not yet needed”. They’ll be looking at what their data is telling them about hospitalisation rates crossed with length since booster (which they can calculate thanks to patient data in the the UK being centralised in the NHS), and I also think it’s fair to assume that the scientists (not necessarily the politicians, but the scientists) will lean on the cautious side for this matter. All the evidence from the most significant experts and the reaction to hospitalisation figures (remember that the booster program has been going for months, it just picked up in December when Omicron came knocking) suggests that those who would be most likely to show concern at such a situation are not doing so.

 

Long story short: The actions of the cautious suggest that a fourth jab isn’t required yet. The guy in the video is implying the vaccines are useless after a matter of weeks. He makes no mention of symptomatic infection, picking only the shortest timeframe he can and (I’m going to say) deliberately misrepresenting it. The whole setup of that video is classic propaganda to me: Start off with reasonable statements and suggestions that are at least a fair point, don’t rant and rave, sound and act simply like the good guy trying to offer a viewpoint. Then extrapolate incorrectly and see how many people you can take along with you. And then “please share” is the confirmation beyond confirmation that this guy’s intention isn’t to offer an opinion but to spread a message.

Yes, the message being that making fellow human beings choose between potential destitution and injecting something in to their body which could potentially cause serious side effects or death, for very, very minimal upside is immoral, coercive and should be illegal. Let's not pretend we haven't been subjected to relentless propaganda from the covid orthodoxy for the last 2 years.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, shade said:

Yes, the message being that making fellow human beings choose between potential destitution and injecting something in to their body which could potentially cause serious side effects or death, for very, very minimal upside is immoral, coercive and should be illegal. Let's not pretend we haven't been subjected to relentless propaganda from the covid orthodoxy for the last 2 years.

Unfortunately, a virus doesn't share the human ideas regarding morality. It has an evolutionary (though not moral) advantage over us there.

[shade]

46 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Unfortunately, a virus doesn't share the human ideas regarding morality. It has an evolutionary (though not moral) advantage over us there.

Let's not pretend that this (at least since the Wuhan strain) was dangerous enough to force injections on young, healthy people which could mean they wouldn't see their children grow up. If it was genuinely an innoculation in the traditional sense, then there would be a consideration, but in the current situation where vaccinated people are getting it in higher numbers according to raw data, nope.

 

 

If that data is anywhere near accurate, then all you're doing by injecting young people is effectively borrowing health from the young to protect the old.

 

Also @Dunge, would you classify this is deliberate misrepresentation, classic propaganda or just plain incompetence?

 

Edited 11 January 2022 by shade

[leicsmac]

42 minutes ago, shade said:

Let's not pretend that this (at least since the Wuhan strain) was dangerous enough to force injections on young, healthy people which could mean they wouldn't see their children grow up. If it was genuinely an innoculation in the traditional sense, then there would be a consideration, but in the current situation where vaccinated people are getting it in higher numbers according to raw data, nope.

 

 

If that data is anywhere near accurate, then all you're doing by injecting young people is effectively borrowing health from the young to protect the old.

 

Also @Dunge, would you classify this is deliberate misrepresentation, classic propaganda or just plain incompetence?

 

And I'm sure that those who won't see their children and grandchildren grow up thanks to either being unvaccinated or the unvaccinated view it rather differently.

 

In any case, this isn't just about Covid. As I've said before, it's about the disregard for collective response and disregard of scientific fact (that changes dynamically btw) in the face of a natural threat. That it cost (relatively) few lives this time is down to luck. It might not be the case next time. And there will be a next time.

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, shade said:

Yes, the message being that making fellow human beings choose between potential destitution and injecting something in to their body which could potentially cause serious side effects or death, for very, very minimal upside is immoral, coercive and should be illegal. Let's not pretend we haven't been subjected to relentless propaganda from the covid orthodoxy for the last 2 years.

That’s the first part of it, the hook. Where he’s making a reasonable point to pull you in.

And then there’s the second part of it, the hammer. Where he deliberately tries to misdirect.

 

 

1 hour ago, shade said:

Let's not pretend that this (at least since the Wuhan strain) was dangerous enough to force injections on young, healthy people which could mean they wouldn't see their children grow up. If it was genuinely an innoculation in the traditional sense, then there would be a consideration, but in the current situation where vaccinated people are getting it in higher numbers according to raw data, nope.

 

 

If that data is anywhere near accurate, then all you're doing by injecting young people is effectively borrowing health from the young to protect the old.

 

Also @Dunge, would you classify this is deliberate misrepresentation, classic propaganda or just plain incompetence?

 

Assuming it’s wrong, sounds like incompetence (clearly harsh word but closest when chosen from your list). I remember this stat from the original studies of the vaccines against Alpha, so it’s likely out of date against Omicron. But then, just consider: You’re having a go at This Morning. Like you’ve had a crack at Lorraine Kelly and Dr. Hillary in the past as well, people participating in light entertainment, and comparing them to the guy on the other page who has the stench of politics all over him (from 1:30), however reasonable he may sound at the start - you have to credit guys like him for learning that leaning against lampposts on street corners, flipping coins in the air and twirling their pencil moustaches maniacally isn’t seen as trustworthy anymore.

 

You’re really telling me you can’t see the difference?

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, shade said:

 

 

Also @Dunge, would you classify this is deliberate misrepresentation, classic propaganda or just plain incompetence?

 

Seriously, where do you find this stuff!  is there a website where it’s all there, waiting to be linked to! 

 

it wasn’t such a ridiculous claim on that date was it?   All the evidence and data they had at that time pretty much pointed to that outcome. Infact, I’d ask you to do some more digging and see if how many who had two AZ jabs died from covid induced issues from the Wuhan or alpha strains.  Because on Jan 4th, that’s all we knew about.  of course people could have qualified statements with ‘against known current covid strains’ but then they would have been accused of scare mongering ! 

[Dunge]

2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Seriously, where do you find this stuff!  is there a website where it’s all there, waiting to be linked to! 

 

it wasn’t such a ridiculous claim on that date was it?   All the evidence and data they had at that time pretty much pointed to that outcome. Infact, I’d ask you to do some more digging and see if how many who had two AZ jabs died from covid induced issues from the Wuhan or alpha strains.  Because on Jan 4th, that’s all we knew about.  of course people could have qualified statements with ‘against known current covid strains’ but then they would have been accused of scare mongering ! 

Oh Jeez, I saw “2021” and thought it meant Jan this year.  
 

She’s not even wrong for the time.

[Koke]

Regarding Djokovic, this sums up the whole Covid and vaccination polarisation., this sums it up. 

 

Edited 11 January 2022 by Koke

[leicsmac]

35 minutes ago, Koke said:

Regarding Djokovic, this sums up the whole Covid and vaccination polarisation., this sums it up. 

 

Substitute "science" in for "health" and that is pretty much perfect.

[z-layrex]

@Paninistickers I also wanted to say this yesterday, but didn't know if it was public knowledge:

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-trust-distances-itself-from-anti-vax-doctor-who-charges-500-an-hour-at-private-breathlessness-clinic-1393143

 

An anti-vax doctor who runs a breathlessness clinic. You couldn't make this shit up.

[shade]

15 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

@Paninistickers I also wanted to say this yesterday, but didn't know if it was public knowledge:

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-trust-distances-itself-from-anti-vax-doctor-who-charges-500-an-hour-at-private-breathlessness-clinic-1393143

 

An anti-vax doctor who runs a breathlessness clinic. You couldn't make this shit up.

anti-vax is a derogatory slur, he's stated that he's had every vaccine required to work until this one.

 

the rest of the attack article (I question the necessity to write a personal attack piece, rather than focus on his claims) implies that focussing on a patient's health prior to them ending up in a clinical setting, is somehow wrong?

 

I also note that breathlessness isn't something particularly pseudo-scientific? 

 

https://www.cuh.nhs.uk/our-services/breathlessness-intervention-service/

Edited 11 January 2022 by shade

[Soup]

10 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

@Paninistickers I also wanted to say this yesterday, but didn't know if it was public knowledge:

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-trust-distances-itself-from-anti-vax-doctor-who-charges-500-an-hour-at-private-breathlessness-clinic-1393143

 

An anti-vax doctor who runs a breathlessness clinic. You couldn't make this shit up.

What is wrong with that? Or he trying to ban people who don't come to his clinic from taking part in day to day life. Like what many governments are doing to people who choose not to go to their vaccine clinic. You couldn't make that shit up mate.

[Dahnsouff]

5 minutes ago, shade said:

anti-vax is a derogatory slur, he's stated that he's had every vaccine required to work until this one.

But as a doctor you would expect he would follow the science, no?

[st albans fox]

Tbh, those who don’t have a booster are clearly at a higher risk of suffering symptoms such as breathing issues - it’s good for business …. It’s not like they’re dying !

 

[shade]

Just now, st albans fox said:

Tbh, those who don’t have a booster are clearly at a higher risk of suffering symptoms such as breathing issues - it’s good for business …. It’s not like they’re dying !

 

Indeed, but very soon those who have only had three shots will have the same risk of suffering symptoms as the great unwashed, then it's the fourth, and soon after that you will be back down to our level.

 

Here's a controversial idea, why doesn't everyone get their BMI down to circa 22, walk more, take high doses of vitamin D3 with K2, eat at least moderately well, lift weights even at a low level, drink less than the recommended units of alcohol per week and not smoke. Mind blowing.

[st albans fox]

2 minutes ago, shade said:

Indeed, but very soon those who have only had three shots will have the same risk of suffering symptoms as the great unwashed, then it's the fourth, and soon after that you will be back down to our level.

 

Here's a controversial idea, why doesn't everyone get their BMI down to circa 22, walk more, take high doses of vitamin D3 with K2, eat at least moderately well, lift weights even at a low level, drink less than the recommended units of alcohol per week and not smoke. Mind blowing.

I’ll get back to you after lunch 

[z-layrex]

11 minutes ago, shade said:

Indeed, but very soon those who have only had three shots will have the same risk of suffering symptoms as the great unwashed, then it's the fourth, and soon after that you will be back down to our level.

 

Here's a controversial idea, why doesn't everyone get their BMI down to circa 22, walk more, take high doses of vitamin D3 with K2, eat at least moderately well, lift weights even at a low level, drink less than the recommended units of alcohol per week and not smoke. Mind blowing.

I saw plenty of fit people die these past 2 years, I know you don't like to read that but it's true. My patient today is an absolute legend and is getting better slowly, but I would imagine he will be breathless for the rest of his life now. He is super fit, regular gym goer, but sadly didn't think he needed a vaccine.

 

I do agree with you though on the point of everyone needs to be healthy. This is an obesity plague. Never has it been more dangerous to be fat than it is now.

Edited 11 January 2022 by z-layrex

[shade]

1 minute ago, z-layrex said:

I saw plenty of fit people die these past 2 years, I know you don't like to read that but it's true.

 

I do agree with you though on the point of everyone needs to be healthy. This is an obesity plague.

On the contrary, I do like to hear it, because i'm constantly evaluating my decision believe it or not. I don't like to ask specific questions to people who are witnessing it first hand because it could be taken as I'm trying to prove a point rather than genuine interest.

[Carl the Llama]

20 minutes ago, shade said:

anti-vax is a derogatory slur, he's stated that he's had every vaccine required to work until this one.

 

the rest of the attack article (I question the necessity to write a personal attack piece, rather than focus on his claims) implies that focussing on a patient's health prior to them ending up in a clinical setting, is somehow wrong?

 

I also note that breathlessness isn't something particularly pseudo-scientific? 

 

https://www.cuh.nhs.uk/our-services/breathlessness-intervention-service/

Anti vax is no more a slur than calling someone a Brexiteer.  Both are accurately descriptive of that person's opinions on specific topics.

[z-layrex]

Just now, shade said:

On the contrary, I do like to hear it, because i'm constantly evaluating my decision believe it or not. I don't like to ask specific questions to people who are witnessing it first hand because it could be taken as I'm trying to prove a point rather than genuine interest.

Sorry I edited before you replied. 

[fox_up_north]

"healthy" people can get ill if they're exposed to something enough and don't have adequate immune responses. 

 

Would you work with asbestos with no precautions? Of course not. Simply assuming you're safer because you have a healthy lifestyle is willful ignorance/ arrogance at best.

 

My aunt works in cardio at a Warwickshire hospital and some of the stories she came out with over the last year or so. Even when I was working in a Manchester hospital, my mate who worked in A&E and ICU were telling me horror stories of people who just refused to believe they could get ill because they "go to the gym". 

[shade]

1 minute ago, fox_up_north said:

"healthy" people can get ill if they're exposed to something enough and don't have adequate immune responses. 

 

Would you work with asbestos with no precautions? Of course not. Simply assuming you're safer because you have a healthy lifestyle is willful ignorance/ arrogance at best.

 

My aunt works in cardio at a Warwickshire hospital and some of the stories she came out with over the last year or so. Even when I was working in a Manchester hospital, my mate who worked in A&E and ICU were telling me horror stories of people who just refused to believe they could get ill because they "go to the gym". 

It's a lot more than just going to the gym though. Consider that 70% of your immunity comes from your gut - eating specifically to support that and taking pro and prebiotics makes sense right? There's very strong evidence that high serum vitamin D levels can reduce risk of serious illness from covid and respiratory diseases down to an almost negligible level. Even something as simple as nasal irrigation and gargling with salt water or chlorohexidine when ill can help reduce viral replication. Not to mention the evidence that Ivermectin may be effective in the early stages of the disease. (These are not recommendations instead of the vaccine if you want it, but as supplemental)

 

I don't agree with treatment nihilism we have - stay at home until you're so unwell that you need to be hospitalised, there's nothing else that can be done. It's bizarre.

[leicsmac]

There is certainly a fair bit people can do in terms of physical capacity that might help them against Covid.

 

However, as per above, these measures should be considered *alongside* vaccination, rather than *instead* of it. Even outwardly healthy people can have conditions they know nothing about until Covid exposes them in rather nasty fashion, to say nothing of other reasons - I would think being more risk averse on that score just makes sense.

[KrefelderFox666]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There is certainly a fair bit people can do in terms of physical capacity that might help them against Covid.

 

However, as per above, these measures should be considered *alongside* vaccination, rather than *instead* of it. Even outwardly healthy people can have conditions they know nothing about until Covid exposes them in rather nasty fashion, to say nothing of other reasons - I would think being more risk averse on that score just makes sense.

Exactly. And there are millions of things people can do to improve quality of life on this planet. The more that happen side by side the better. Unfortunately, too many are solely focussed on themselves and it is difficult to compensate for that.

[shade]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There is certainly a fair bit people can do in terms of physical capacity that might help them against Covid.

 

However, as per above, these measures should be considered *alongside* vaccination, rather than *instead* of it. Even outwardly healthy people can have conditions they know nothing about until Covid exposes them in rather nasty fashion, to say nothing of other reasons - I would think being more risk averse on that score just makes sense.

Yeah I understand the sentiment, but it's interesting to see the narrative slowly shifting away from PANIC PANIC PANIC. There's no way you would have heard the head of the CDC openly talking about over 75% of covid deaths having AT LEAST 4 comorbidities, just a few months ago.