Coronavirus Thread

[The People's Hero]

13 minutes ago, fox_favourite said:

I’m with you on this. I was hesitant at the time, but did decide to have it. People have the right to decide, and it’s always correct to hear out both sides on some debates as they may have good ideas points. 

I remain hesitant; but it seems we are likely to all be coerced.

[FoxesDeb]

26 minutes ago, Md9 said:

Had my second yesterday so far felt ok but I am just waiting now for it to start making me feel rubbish 🙈 first one only had a slight headache and a bit tired but wasnt to bad. Don’t see me getting off to lightly this time 

You might be lucky, which one did you have? I had the pfizer, with the worst side effect being a sore arm for a couple of days, and just a bit worse after the second. My other half was exactly the same too, so fingers crossed for you 😊 

[bovril]

Just now, FoxesDeb said:

You might be lucky, which one did you have? I had the pfizer, with the worst side effect being a sore arm for a couple of days, and just a bit worse after the second. My other half was exactly the same too, so fingers crossed for you 😊 

Exactly the same with me. Started to worry they'd injected me with water.

[LCFCCHRIS]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I don;t think anyone here (I can't speak for out in the wider world) is directly saying that they shouldn't be treated or that they should suffer as a result of it - and personally I hope that anyone unvaccinated who contracts Covid does fully recover in short order.

 

However I would hope that with that recovery there might come a little wisdom in their outlook.

 

NB. There's nothing wrong with self-interest and people taking measures based upon it that can also be utilised to help society at large.

It's quite prevalent on Reddit. You can bearly read a thread there about vaccines or coronavirus without this hard-line stance with lots of support and it does annoy me to see people with such little regard for the life of others with differing opinions, spurring my rant on here.  Here on foxestalk I've not seen actual desire for unvaccinated people to perish, but some are alluding to a 'well it's your own fault' attitude, when in reality, unvaccinated people deserve no less sympathy than any other member of our society if they lose / almost lose their life due to covid. 

 

To the second point, I agree with you, but I bring it up because a common (with intent to shame) argument is "you'll kill our elderly / vulnerable by not being vaccinated". To which my counter is that the main reason I believe people get this is the self preservation side, not to protect, whereas this argument disregards the self preservation views of others in favour of the helping society aspect.

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

It's quite prevalent on Reddit. You can bearly read a thread there about vaccines or coronavirus without this hard-line stance with lots of support and it does annoy me to see people with such little regard for the life of others with differing opinions, spurring my rant on here.  Here on foxestalk I've not seen actual desire for unvaccinated people to perish, but some are alluding to a 'well it's your own fault' attitude, when in reality, unvaccinated people deserve no less sympathy than any other member of our society if they lose / almost lose their life due to covid. 

 

To the second point, I agree with you, but I bring it up because a common (with intent to shame) argument is "you'll kill our elderly / vulnerable by not being vaccinated". To which my counter is that the main reason I believe people get this is the self preservation side, not to protect, whereas this argument disregards the self preservation views of others in favour of the helping society aspect.

 

 

 

 

With respect to the bolded, I'd totally agree with the idea that a lot of people are taking the vaccine in the name of self-interest but that also serves a bigger purpose here by protecting the vulnerable if they do as well. Indeed, I'd actually posit (though I'd have to work to prove) that the overall danger to life and health (not just about dying) from Covid in strictly statistical terms is greater than that of the vaccine for pretty much anyone anyway.

 

I think we're in general agreement on the concept anyhow, though. Anyone who frequents here knows my viewpoints on self-interest with no other utility but if it can be used to "save the world" by appealing to that sense of self-interest and people then act upon it accordingly then that's a good thing.

[st albans fox]

24 minutes ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

It's quite prevalent on Reddit. You can bearly read a thread there about vaccines or coronavirus without this hard-line stance with lots of support and it does annoy me to see people with such little regard for the life of others with differing opinions, spurring my rant on here.  Here on foxestalk I've not seen actual desire for unvaccinated people to perish, but some are alluding to a 'well it's your own fault' attitude, when in reality, unvaccinated people deserve no less sympathy than any other member of our society if they lose / almost lose their life due to covid. 

 

To the second point, I agree with you, but I bring it up because a common (with intent to shame) argument is "you'll kill our elderly / vulnerable by not being vaccinated". To which my counter is that the main reason I believe people get this is the self preservation side, not to protect, whereas this argument disregards the self preservation views of others in favour of the helping society aspect.

 

It’s pretty much the same as the obese and smokers using health service resources. If there were no smokers or overweight (due to eating) then we would have plenty of slack which could be used to identify cancer earlier etc etc. The unvaccinated covid sufferers (by choice) are just another version of that.  The only argument I can take on board is that the unvaccinated can offer a ‘Petri dish’ for the virus to mutate which could end up affecting the vaccinated.  however, given that govt have basically given a green light for that to happen over the summer of 2021, I can’t see how that argument now stands up   

[LCFCCHRIS]

13 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

It’s pretty much the same as the obese and smokers using health service resources. If there were no smokers or overweight (due to eating) then we would have plenty of slack which could be used to identify cancer earlier etc etc. The unvaccinated covid sufferers (by choice) are just another version of that.  The only argument I can take on board is that the unvaccinated can offer a ‘Petri dish’ for the virus to mutate which could end up affecting the vaccinated.  however, given that govt have basically given a green light for that to happen over the summer of 2021, I can’t see how that argument now stands up   

Can't say I agree. Smoking and overeating is a very well documented problem. Covid and the vaccine are a very new and novel circumstance. It's only natural there will be people wary of jumping onboard. Nobody can be sure the vaccine is definitely fine long run. We can come to that as a logical opinion ourselves if we like, which I have no issue with anybody doing.

 

There's no long term data on this new vaccine effects, whereas we know as an undisputed fact that smoking and obesity won't be good for you long run. People that smoke all their lives either live in denial, simply don't care, or cannot stop, whereas people that don't want the vaccine don't like the uncertainty of it being a new thing.

Edited 24 July 2021 by LCFCCHRIS

[st albans fox]

11 minutes ago, LCFCCHRIS said:

Can't say I agree. Smoking and overeating is a very well documented problem. Covid and the vaccine are a very new and novel circumstance. It's only natural there will be people wary of jumping onboard. Nobody can be sure the vaccine is definitely fine long run. We can come to that as a logical opinion ourselves if we like, which I have no issue with anybody doing.

 

There's no long term data on this new vaccine effects, whereas we know as an undisputed fact that smoking and obesity won't be good for you long run. People that smoke all their lives either live in denial, simply don't care, or cannot stop, whereas people that don't want the vaccine don't like the uncertainty of it being a new thing.

Well if everyone was vaccinated then we wouldn’t be able to see long term effect differences of vaccines/covid.  At least the large number of those who won’t have the vaccine will give us a control as to what long term effects the vaccine has had ….. which scientifically should be nothing of note but I appreciate no one can say for sure 100%. 
 

I reckon that the likelihood of covid having long term effects is way higher btw …..

 

and my point about smoking/over eating is our view on those who require treatment because of this choice. Many have a worse view of anti vaxers  than they do smokers or over eaters …..

 

 

[Md9]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

You might be lucky, which one did you have? I had the pfizer, with the worst side effect being a sore arm for a couple of days, and just a bit worse after the second. My other half was exactly the same too, so fingers crossed for you 😊 

Thanks 🙂had the Pfizer one aswell. Arm was ok last time seems to ache less this time as well at the minute. Can feel a slight headache coming but taking paracetamol so hopefully I get let lucky again and it’s nothing to bad 🙂

[LCFCCHRIS]

11 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Well if everyone was vaccinated then we wouldn’t be able to see long term effect differences of vaccines/covid.  At least the large number of those who won’t have the vaccine will give us a control as to what long term effects the vaccine has had ….. which scientifically should be nothing of note but I appreciate no one can say for sure 100%. 
 

I reckon that the likelihood of covid having long term effects is way higher btw …..

 

and my point about smoking/over eating is our view on those who require treatment because of this choice. Many have a worse view of anti vaxers  than they do smokers or over eaters …..

 

 

I see what you mean and hadn't thought of it like that. Hopefully we can see some good studies about it.  Sorry think I misinterpreted what you wanted to say, thought you were saying it's the same level of culpability for both scenarios, which I don't think it is, although in the same way I would still be sympathetic with someone ending up suffering due to life choices, we all make some that aren't healthy.

[Soup]

Anti vaccine passport demo in Paris. 

Good on them

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, st albans fox said:

It’s pretty much the same as the obese and smokers using health service resources. If there were no smokers or overweight (due to eating) then we would have plenty of slack which could be used to identify cancer earlier etc etc. The unvaccinated covid sufferers (by choice) are just another version of that.  The only argument I can take on board is that the unvaccinated can offer a ‘Petri dish’ for the virus to mutate which could end up affecting the vaccinated.  however, given that govt have basically given a green light for that to happen over the summer of 2021, I can’t see how that argument now stands up   

Smokers pay 9 billion a year in taxes, where do you think all this money for the nhs comes from 

[Carl the Llama]

7 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Smokers pay 9 billion a year in taxes, where do you think all this money for the nhs comes from 

edit: nvm I'm dumb

Edited 24 July 2021 by Carl the Llama

[Otis]

7 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Smokers pay 9 billion a year in taxes, where do you think all this money for the nhs comes from 

Captain Tom walking around his garden ?

[st albans fox]

15 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Smokers pay 9 billion a year in taxes, where do you think all this money for the nhs comes from 

Fair point …..

 

what about the over eaters ???

[Heathrow fox]

5 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Fair point …..

 

what about the over eaters ???

Sugar taxes ? Can only see them going up in future 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

1 hour ago, Heathrow fox said:

Sugar taxes ? Can only see them going up in future 

They penalise everyone though, not just those that choose to overeat.

[dsr-burnley]

5 hours ago, st albans fox said:

It’s pretty much the same as the obese and smokers using health service resources. If there were no smokers or overweight (due to eating) then we would have plenty of slack which could be used to identify cancer earlier etc etc. The unvaccinated covid sufferers (by choice) are just another version of that.  The only argument I can take on board is that the unvaccinated can offer a ‘Petri dish’ for the virus to mutate which could end up affecting the vaccinated.  however, given that govt have basically given a green light for that to happen over the summer of 2021, I can’t see how that argument now stands up   

Is it accepted as fact that people who do not suffer from diseases caused by smoking and over-eating, will live their long healthy lives and then die quietly in their sleep without troubling the health service?  It seems to me that nursing homes are full of people who need a lot of medical treatment, and mostly they are people who have looked after themselves healthily and kept themselves slim.  And yet, they still grow old and die, using NHS resources.

 

There are three things that affect our medical costs.

 

1.  We all die.

2.  Something kills us.

3.  That something (usually) requires medical treatment first.

 

The person who gets fat and has diabetes and needs medical treatment before dying slowly costs more in taxes than the person who lives healthily and never suffers a day's illness before dying unexpectedly at age 90.  Yes, even allowing for the 25 or so years' pension payments.  But the person who lives healthily and doesn't suffer a day's illness until his last decade before dying in a nursing home at age 90 costs more in taxes than the person who dies age 60 of a sudden heart attack.  It works both ways.

 

There are perfectly valid reasons to want people to live longer and more healthily, but saving money isn';t one of them.

[z-layrex]

I've never been comfortable with judging a human being's right to healthcare in this country based on their life choices. Whether they refuse vaccines, eat shit, chain smoke, overdose on a Friday night or try to hang themselves. As British citizens our NHS will care for us from birth to death with zero judgement and we need to defend that. Dont think it should be a discussion.

[st albans fox]

9 minutes ago, z-layrex said:

I've never been comfortable with judging a human being's right to healthcare in this country based on their life choices. Whether they refuse vaccines, eat shit, chain smoke, overdose on a Friday night or try to hang themselves. As British citizens our NHS will care for us from birth to death with zero judgement and we need to defend that. Dont think it should be a discussion.

Which is where state  provision and private provision become separated. 

[Innovindil]

 

 

Last day in Scarborough today and there was some weird ass anti-lockdown, anti-vaccine march down the beach front. One guy yelling no to vaccine passports, understandable, one woman on a loud speaker banging on about graphine in the vaccines and there's a higher chance of dying from the vaccine than covid. Probably about 200 people all in all. Strange way to spend your Saturday afternoon. 

[Corky]

Having an anti-lockdown march when there's no lockdown, thereby wasting time you could spend doing something you want to do and now are able to, is just attention seeking.

 

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

You have to be double jabbed to attend football matches from October according to the Telegraph.

[Unabomber]

11 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

You have to be double jabbed to attend football matches from October according to the Telegraph.

I suppose that gives everyone ample time to get their jabs. I am surprised though that they are enforcing it. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

5 minutes ago, Unabomber said:

I suppose that gives everyone ample time to get their jabs. I am surprised though that they are enforcing it. 

Could be a bluff to push those who are hesitant into having it, guess we'll find out soon enough!