Amartey

[5waller5]

3 hours ago, Col city fan said:

See what you’re doing here mate… being  browbeaten into submission by the usual suspects on this thread. 
Don’t do it. Stick with what you think. It’s an online forum and let me tell you, this bunch ain’t coming round to knock your door down.

Whats happening is what I pointed out happens on here a couple of pages back

👍

You use the expression “usual suspects”, and yet when I scan read an overly critical repetitive post about our 4th choice CB I instantly knew that it was you, again. 

 

Edited 13 May 2022 by 5waller5

[Facecloth]

9 hours ago, Beachyboy said:

I agree with the point that Amartey is fine as 4th choice hence why I said i'm happy for him to play 6-10 premiership games prior, so if Fofana is no 1, the real things that need to be looked at in the summer is who is 2 and 3 so that Amartey is not needed as much, i'd expect a sale of Soyunchu, Evans can't be relied upon to play enough games, so if we could get £20 million for Soyunchu, a free transfer CB and another for under that £20 million, that's the busines that is needed in the summer.

But again the point is you only play your 4th choice for as many games in an injury crisis, which we've had. Remember when Liverpool lost half their defence last year and had to play Fabinho and Philips at the back. Was that down to poor recruitment by Liverpool, or was that just because that's what happens when half the defence is out. Liverpool have since signed Konate, but we aren't Liverpool and we have a smaller budget. I'd rather we spent in areas thar need real improvement to push us forward, not on replacing a player who is fine for the role he would normally play when we don't have an injury crisis. 

 

Or we can go and piss away another £15 on another Vestergaard type, but I'd rather put that towards a right winger. Just think last years, instead of buying Soumare for like £20m and Vestergaard for £15m to replace Amartey we could have got that Bruno who went to Newcastle in January for the same outlay. Instead we got a cheaper midfielder who's not as good as Bruno and wasted £15m on a defender to replace what didn't need replacing. Let's spend our money a bit more sensibly this year please.

Edited 14 May 2022 by Facecloth

[Phenom]

He’s a solid 4th choice CB. Nothing wrong with that. 

[Supergray22]

Big Dan gets a tough time from people at the moment yet a few weeks ago he was getting rave reviews. The truth is somewhere in between. Playing at centre back means every mistake is spotlighted compared to a more offensive position and particularly so with the advent of social media. If you compare the number of mistakes he has made say in misplaced passes or tackles compared to say Tielemans Kel or KDH in recent games it compares favourably. For me he is a keeper.  He has surpassed expectations this year being surprisingly solid and his passing has improved considerably. Against Norwich for example he broke the lines on numerous occasions. All our defensive players need to address the over reliance on that nervy tippy happy play at he back though- right now. The more Dan plays the better he gets in terms of confidence and performance - remember he is still relatively young in terms of age and first team too flight experience in the role. He is a humble and likeable guy who never grumbles for sitting on the bench. Given that we won’t get much of a return for him if we sold on and not on obscene wages I would be happy to keep him as 4th centre back certainly for now. 
I do hope Evans can continue for longer. For me his experience is valuable and if fit he deserves his starting place. We cannot rely on this though given his injury record.  We will need to buy another starting centre back this summer though to replace Cags if and when he leaves this summer. I’d love him to see him stay as I still think he can do a lot better than this season and will get better. Defence is the responsibility of the whole team and I’d like to see the partnership with Wes and Cags get some more games to see if it can develop as it potentially could.
If Cags is not going to sign though we need to spend the money and go for someone who is going to meet the clubs ambition. We cannot afford the transfer mistakes made last year. None of this is rocket science and the club are aware and need to deliver. Given the injury issues suffered this season, the backups did cope but we cannot repeat that. Hopefully we will see the academy youngsters step up and produce the next KDH Barnes or Chilwell in a CB role. We cannot count on that and let this gap go vacant like the Mahrez RW replacement if we want to entertain top six ambitions. 

Edited 14 May 2022 by Supergray22

[Beachyboy]

1 hour ago, Facecloth said:

But again the point is you only play your 4th choice for as many games in an injury crisis, which we've had. Remember when Liverpool lost half their defence last year and had to play Fabinho and Philips at the back. Was that down to poor recruitment by Liverpool, or was that just because that's what happens when half the defence is out. Liverpool have since signed Konate, but we aren't Liverpool and we have a smaller budget. I'd rather we spent in areas thar need real improvement to push us forward, not on replacing a player who is fine for the role he would normally play when we don't have an injury crisis. 

 

Or we can go and piss away another £15 on another Vestergaard type, but I'd rather put that towards a right winger. Just think last years, instead of buying Soumare for like £20m and Vestergaard for £15m to replace Amartey we could have got that Bruno who went to Newcastle in January for the same outlay. Instead we got a cheaper midfielder who's not as good as Bruno and wasted £15m on a defender to replace what didn't need replacing. Let's spend our money a bit more sensibly this year please.

Of course its poor recruitment Fofana was injured about 3 weeks before the window closes, Evans had injury troubles at the back end of last season also, so I don't agree with the Liverpool comparison, Amartey is great as a 4th choice but with those points and the signing of Vestergaard a player, that was never really going to suit the style of football we played combined with Soyunchu form which as others have mentioned went back before the Euros, it pretty much meant Amartey at the start of the season was 1st choice rather than 4th choice, we should always have a list of players that fit the profile of player what we want, if a £120 million bid came in for Fofana, we'd have to accept it, you need to have some sort of shortlist before a player is needed, you can't just react to situations.

[Facecloth]

I've asked 2 questions in this thread, and I'm still waiting on answers.

 

1. Who we bringing in to play the role he does when we don't have an injury crisis? Who can we get that would be better but happy to play the role he does of not even making the squad most weeks when everyone is fit?

 

2. Can someone list these glaring mistakes he's made on a regular occurrence? I'm sure he's made the odd one, most players have. But for him to be a worry it had to be most games surely? But its not is it. So can someone run me through all these horrendous errors he's making?

[Facecloth]

Just now, Beachyboy said:

Of course its poor recruitment Fofana was injured about 3 weeks before the window closes, Evans had injury troubles at the back end of last season also, so I don't agree with the Liverpool comparison, Amartey is great as a 4th choice but with those points and the signing of Vestergaard a player, that was never really going to suit the style of football we played combined with Soyunchu form which as others have mentioned went back before the Euros, it pretty much meant Amartey at the start of the season was 1st choice rather than 4th choice, we should always have a list of players that fit the profile of player what we want, if a £120 million bid came in for Fofana, we'd have to accept it, you need to have some sort of shortlist before a player is needed, you can't just react to situations.

Oh I don't disagree Vestergaard was poor recruitment, we shouldn't have signed him anyway he wasn't needed, he irrelevant to all this. We had Amartey before he came. At the end of day we had 2 centre backs injured, we can't just keep signing players to replace injured players. 2 players out in a position will mean, as with most clubs we are down to 4th choice.

 

If we sell Fofana, that's a completely different scenario as we'd be looking to replace a starting player for long term. At the start of last season we hadn't sold him, we had just lost him to injury, we can't be going out signing starting quality players everytime we get an injury. 

 

If this is our pecking order

 

Fofana

Evans

Soyuncu 

Amartey 

Vestergaard 

 

If any of them get injured we move a player up a slot. If we sell any of them, we would be looking to replace them directly. So if Fofana left we aren't moving them all up and making Amartey third choice, so its completely different to an injury situation. 

[Beachyboy]

11 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I've asked 2 questions in this thread, and I'm still waiting on answers.

 

1. Who we bringing in to play the role he does when we don't have an injury crisis? Who can we get that would be better but happy to play the role he does of not even making the squad most weeks when everyone is fit?

 

2. Can someone list these glaring mistakes he's made on a regular occurrence? I'm sure he's made the odd one, most players have. But for him to be a worry it had to be most games surely? But its not is it. So can someone run me through all these horrendous errors he's making?

You've glossed over my main point i've made which is i'm happy with Amartey as 4th choice, the issue was there was always going to be question marks over no2 and no3, add to that no real transfer resale, versatility. The Man utd game sticks in my mind where we take Evans off for Amartey at 64 mins after looking comfortable complete panic sets in when Amartey comes on the pitch, he passes it back to schmeichel rather than just knocking it down the line schmeichel miss kicks Man utd get the ball back and Fred scores within 2 mins of coming on, in that situation managing Evans game time, where you want a defender to just defend, I personally would sooner rather have somebody like Gary Cahill coming on. 

Edited 14 May 2022 by Beachyboy

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Beachyboy said:

You've glossed over my main point i've made which is i'm happy with Amartey as 4th choice, the issue was there was always going to be question marks over no2 and no3, add to that no real transfer resale, versatility. The Man utd game sticks in my mind where we take Amartey off for Evans at 64 mins after looking comfortable complete panic sets in when Amartey comes on the pitch, he passes it back to schmeichel rather than just knocking it down the line schmeichel miss kicks Man utd get the ball back and Fred scores within 2 mins of coming on, in that situation managing Evans game time, where you want a defender to just defend, I personally would sooner rather have somebody like Gary Cahill coming on. 

That's because your in a situation where your not just managing Evans game time, but also Fofana. It's reality of life when you have two centre backs injured. If Vardy and Iheanacho are injured, Daka is knackered due to playing every game, are you complaining about recruitment when we have to replace him with a kid or player someone out of position up front? Of course not. It's just what happens when you have numerous injuries. 

 

No it wasn't a great piece of play prior to the Fred goal, shit happens with your all players though. I mentioned earlier about Ndidi giving away penalties weekly. Tielemans setting up PSVs goal. Evans loves a pass straight to oppositions midfielder under no pressure. Making errors aren't exclusive to Amartey. 

[Beachyboy]

6 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Oh I don't disagree Vestergaard was poor recruitment, we shouldn't have signed him anyway he wasn't needed, he irrelevant to all this. We had Amartey before he came. At the end of day we had 2 centre backs injured, we can't just keep signing players to replace injured players. 2 players out in a position will mean, as with most clubs we are down to 4th choice.

 

If we sell Fofana, that's a completely different scenario as we'd be looking to replace a starting player for long term. At the start of last season we hadn't sold him, we had just lost him to injury, we can't be going out signing starting quality players everytime we get an injury. 

 

If this is our pecking order

 

Fofana

Evans

Soyuncu 

Amartey 

Vestergaard 

 

If any of them get injured we move a player up a slot. If we sell any of them, we would be looking to replace them directly. So if Fofana left we aren't moving them all up and making Amartey third choice, so its completely different to an injury situation. 

Why aren't any of the u23s trusted in a league game? are we trying to get the likes of Nelson and Brunt out on loan in the championship or league 1, so that should this happen in the future we are ready, I agree you can't sign multiple players, but 2 seasons or so when there was a left back crisis, Thomas seemed to approach from nowhere, sometimes giving these youngsters a bit of a chance in the right moment can fast track them a year or so. Nelson I think has been kept as cover with the injury crisis, yet no real bravery to actually use him in the odd game, I guess he will improve by training with the 1st team but they should of both gone on loan really at the start of last season until christmas 2021.

[Tommy Fresh]

14 minutes ago, Beachyboy said:

You've glossed over my main point i've made which is i'm happy with Amartey as 4th choice, the issue was there was always going to be question marks over no2 and no3, add to that no real transfer resale, versatility. The Man utd game sticks in my mind where we take Evans off for Amartey at 64 mins after looking comfortable complete panic sets in when Amartey comes on the pitch, he passes it back to schmeichel rather than just knocking it down the line schmeichel miss kicks Man utd get the ball back and Fred scores within 2 mins of coming on, in that situation managing Evans game time, where you want a defender to just defend, I personally would sooner rather have somebody like Gary Cahill coming on. 

I'd note that United goal is more reflective of our style of play rather than a fault with Amartey as such. What you didn't really see is why has Amartey received the ball in such a position where his only obvious option is to go back to Kasper. The pass back was poor by the way not defending that.

Edited 14 May 2022 by Tommy Fresh

[CUJimmy]

I totally get that Amarty is our 4th choice CB (assuming Cags either returns to form or we replace at a similar level) but remember the line-up for our best defensive performance of the season 😳

[Beachyboy]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

That's because your in a situation where your not just managing Evans game time, but also Fofana. It's reality of life when you have two centre backs injured. If Vardy and Iheanacho are injured, Daka is knackered due to playing every game, are you complaining about recruitment when we have to replace him with a kid or player someone out of position up front? Of course not. It's just what happens when you have numerous injuries. 

 

No it wasn't a great piece of play prior to the Fred goal, shit happens with your all players though. I mentioned earlier about Ndidi giving away penalties weekly. Tielemans setting up PSVs goal. Evans loves a pass straight to oppositions midfielder under no pressure. Making errors aren't exclusive to Amartey. 

look the Maddison goal decision goes in our favour we get the win, I don't remember it as much but that was the point in the season where I still thought we had something to play for in the league, we had PSV we had to manage the game time sure but bringing on a young striker through the ranks, is a little less risky than a defender, we need to get these youngsters like Brunt and Nelson out on loan. Sure mistakes happen, an the same has happened with Vestergaard where we make these substitutions to preserve players, but we've lost at least 10 points this season probably more doing this, the recruitment last summer wasn't great, an I don't always say that, Lookman has been useful, Daka had moments but there was a glaring hole at CB and we shouldn't be asking as much of Amartey if we have aspirations of top 7. At a Southampton, Leeds he'd be great, but I do have admiration for how hes come back after so long out injured.

[Beachyboy]

6 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

I'd note that United goal is more reflective of our style of play rather than a fault with Amartey as such. What you didn't really see is why has Amartey received the ball in such a position where his only obvious option is to go back to Kasper. The pass back was poor by the way not defending that.

I agree with the style being an issue hence why a lot me included are frustrated with our game management, which seemed to be amazing at the back end of 2016, so this is why I say somebody like Cahill would be a bit more willing to against the grain of that, an just do the right thing needed for the result.

[Beachyboy]

9 minutes ago, CUJimmy said:

I totally get that Amarty is our 4th choice CB (assuming Cags either returns to form or we replace at a similar level) but remember the line-up for our best defensive performance of the season 😳

That isn't just Amartey though, its being aware we aren't going to have as much possession no matter how much we want it, so selecting players like Hamza and Soumare gives us a better chance of defending more effectively, i'd like to see Hamza play a bit more to be honest.

[CUJimmy]

Just now, Beachyboy said:

That isn't just Amartey though, its being aware we aren't going to have as much possession no matter how much we want it, so selecting players like Hamza and Soumare gives us a better chance of defending more effectively, i'd like to see Hamza play a bit more to be honest.

Obviously not, just saying that when we were really at rock bottom with regard to injuries to defenders and he is given a very specific job to do he can do it (ie staying within a yard of Salah the whole night).  Where he falls down for me is decision making, particularly trying to pick a pass through a hopeless non-press like Everton last weekend.

[Facecloth]

15 minutes ago, Beachyboy said:

look the Maddison goal decision goes in our favour we get the win, I don't remember it as much but that was the point in the season where I still thought we had something to play for in the league, we had PSV we had to manage the game time sure but bringing on a young striker through the ranks, is a little less risky than a defender, we need to get these youngsters like Brunt and Nelson out on loan. Sure mistakes happen, an the same has happened with Vestergaard where we make these substitutions to preserve players, but we've lost at least 10 points this season probably more doing this, the recruitment last summer wasn't great, an I don't always say that, Lookman has been useful, Daka had moments but there was a glaring hole at CB and we shouldn't be asking as much of Amartey if we have aspirations of top 7. At a Southampton, Leeds he'd be great, but I do have admiration for how hes come back after so long out injured.

But we wouldn't normally be asking this much of Amartey 

[Beachyboy]

3 minutes ago, CUJimmy said:

Obviously not, just saying that when we were really at rock bottom with regard to injuries to defenders and he is given a very specific job to do he can do it (ie staying within a yard of Salah the whole night).  Where he falls down for me is decision making, particularly trying to pick a pass through a hopeless non-press like Everton last weekend.

I

 

3 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

But we wouldn't normally be asking this much of Amartey 

lets agree to disagree, I come back to my earlier point about the transfer decisions in the summer being why Amartey had to play so much, still sticks in my mind when he scored against Brighton towards the end of last season, an then barely got a kick for the rest of the season, good squad player, every club needs that type of player, with a maximum of 50 games next season even if we made both domestic finals next year compared to 58 this season, thankfully he will be needed less next season.

[majaco]

33 minutes ago, CUJimmy said:

I totally get that Amarty is our 4th choice CB (assuming Cags either returns to form or we replace at a similar level) but remember the line-up for our best defensive performance of the season 😳

Amartey and Ndidi closed the gaps.

 

In light of that game, it is also interesting that Rodgers seems to have no trust in Choudhury.  When he has played, we have generally conceded less.   What happens with Choudhury at Seagrave is presumably significant.  

 

That team, on paper, looks like it should be hopeless defensively.  Soumare played too (I'd forgotten).

[CUJimmy]

2 minutes ago, Beachyboy said:

I

 

lets agree to disagree, I come back to my earlier point about the transfer decisions in the summer being why Amartey had to play so much, still sticks in my mind when he scored against Brighton towards the end of last season, an then barely got a kick for the rest of the season, good squad player, every club needs that type of player, with a maximum of 50 games next season even if we made both domestic finals next year compared to 58 this season, thankfully he will be needed less next season.

I don’t think we are disagreeing, I just think we would struggle to find a better 4th choice CB who is happy to sit on the bench most of the time.  In an ideal world we would have brought in someone to cover for Little Wes when he got injured but we will never know how much effort was put in.  There was talk of Dunk or Tarkowski but when teams know you are desperate the prices go crazy so we probably just decided to ride it out.  The thinking behind Vestegaard and Bertrand though still baffles me.

[Supergray22]

1 minute ago, CUJimmy said:

I don’t think we are disagreeing, I just think we would struggle to find a better 4th choice CB who is happy to sit on the bench most of the time.  In an ideal world we would have brought in someone to cover for Little Wes when he got injured but we will never know how much effort was put in.  There was talk of Dunk or Tarkowski but when teams know you are desperate the prices go crazy so we probably just decided to ride it out.  The thinking behind Vestegaard and Bertrand though still baffles me.

The thinking/reasoning and optimism was ok. The choices and result were not. 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, pmcla26 said:

It’s all well and good highlighting that but what about the 10-15 other games that Thomas and Amartey have been below average in? I’m a fan of both of them but I think they both get way more credit than they deserve, whilst other players get overly criticised. 

Particularly with Amartey,  what we're this games. Our goals per game conceded average is very similar with him in the team as without. He's started 11 of our 12 league wins this season. He's not the problem people make him out to be.

[Supergray22]

Just now, Facecloth said:

Well you're not one who suggesting we get rid and implying he error prone, so you don't need to answer the questions. 

Thank you sir. I am excused. Seriously for the role he plays he is absolutely fine and I suspect the more he plays the better he will get particularly if we get behind him and his confidence grows. It is not politically correct to condone the disrespect he showed to the Chelsea pennant and his involvement in the touch line handbags against Rudiger and Co. Personally I loved that too and he went up a notch on my affection as a result. 

[Koke]

He's 4th choice CB. I don't know who people expect to get in that's top half PL standard who's happy to be 4th choice. 

 

It is what it is with Amartey. We can ship him out for £8-10m but then what? 

[The Horse's Mouth]

This thread is so odd