Maddison

[FOXYTALK]

We really need some journos to push hard on Southgate on the omission and why he wasn't picked. Time to call out his decisions and be more accountable. 

[cruzFOX]

Well well well don’t know how many pundits have now come out and said England needs Madisson! Having watched southgates team struggle for ideas and imagination in all 4 games the last one being the most damning now they all know. All roads to failure lead back to southgates limited thinking. The guy wouldn’t know a creative genius if it him in the face.

let’s see what happens but for now madisson should just quietly get on with doing his best for Leicester. When southgate swallows his pride he will come groveling.

[justfoxes]

Wilshere is bang on Southgate is endangering Englands hopes of a title by not picking quality players he has a problem or holds a grudge against, seems like he’s holding a huge chip on his shoulder over Maddison especially when he comes out with BLLX at hat madders is scared of flair players both against and playing with !

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10925395/Jack-Wilshere-says-James-Maddisons-exclusion-England-squad-got-personal.html

Edited 17 June 2022 by justfoxes

[An Sionnach]

On 14/06/2022 at 21:29, shailen said:

Great point this. Not really put two and two together but Southgate is just following a line of England managers who just pick their favourites. It'll be a travesty if this England group don't win anything and I'm fearful it'll be the case with him.im charge! 

They always have and always will. Ramsey preferred Hunt to Greaves. In no known universe was Hunt better than Greaves. Southgate prefers Grealish to Maddison , its no use banging your head against the wall about it.

[Fox92]

On 12/06/2022 at 11:05, Sharpe's Fox said:

Any player who is drawn into Southgate's orbit looks like complete shit within a training session. Keep Maddison the hell away from Waistcoat Pulis at all costs.

 

"Waistcoast Pulis" is harsh.

 

...... Pulis was actually competitive in the PL and not just relegated

Edited 17 June 2022 by Fox92

[Sharpe's Fox]

2 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

"Waistcoast Pulis" is harsh.

 

...... Pulis was actually competitive in the PL and not just relegated

Fair enough.

 

We'll go for Woke Warnock.

[Fox92]

On 14/06/2022 at 21:29, shailen said:

Great point this. Not really put two and two together but Southgate is just following a line of England managers who just pick their favourites. It'll be a travesty if this England group don't win anything and I'm fearful it'll be the case with him.im charge! 

Tbh I always felt Southagte was the first in a long time to not just pick "favourites" or players based on club. He's given debut's to many a player including players like Mitchell at Palace recently and lets not forget he picked Chilwell and Maguire when they were both here.

 

I've never rated Southgate as a manager, nor have I ever thought he should be England manager, but "this England group" is also overrated for me. I see it all the time yet these bunch of players aren't half as good as what they were 15/20 years ago. Maguire and Mings aren't better than Terry and Campbell, none of the midfielders are better than Lampard or Gerrard. I'll give you Kane but even then Michael Owen was superb in his prime.

 

People like to knock those players from 15/20 years ago but they were playing against better sides. For example, we got knocked out of the 2002 World Cup but a Brazil side that included Cafu, Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. We lost in Euro 2004 to a French side that included Vieira, Henry and Zidane. We're not facing sides like that nowadays. These players aren't any better than previous England sides.

Edited 17 June 2022 by Fox92
Correction

[Oldblueyes]

On 14/06/2022 at 21:17, Phube said:

As people have said; Maddison is one of the few players to come out of this shitshow of an International Window with his reputation severely  enhanced!

There is a fan perception that if you want to increase your playing skill factors and the importance to a team is sometimes not to play.

[Foxdiamond]

44 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

They always have and always will. Ramsey preferred Hunt to Greaves. In no known universe was Hunt better than Greaves. Southgate prefers Grealish to Maddison , its no use banging your head against the wall about it.

Greaves did win a number of caps under Ramsey. It was only during WC that Hunt and Hurst were preferred. 

[Foxdiamond]

32 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Tbh I always felt Southagte was the first in a long time to not just pick "favourites" or players based on club. He's given debut's to many a player including players like Mitchell at Palace recently and lets not forget he picked Chilwell and Maguire when they were both here.

 

I've never rated Southgate as a manager, nor have I ever thought he should be England manager, but "this England group" is also overrated for me. I see it all the time yet these bunch of players aren't half as good as what they were 15/20 years ago. Maguire and Mings aren't better than Terry and Campbell, none of the midfielders are better than Lampard or Gerrard. I'll give you Kane but even then Michael Owen was superb in his prime.

 

People like to knock those players from 15/20 years ago but they were playing against better sides. For example, we got knocked out of the 2002 World Cup but a Brazil side that included Cafu, Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. We lost in Euro 2004 to a French side that included Vieira, Henry and Zidane. We're not facing sides like that nowadays. These players aren't any better than previous England sides.

England players have often been bigged up only to disappoint in the crucial matches

[smudger63]

13 minutes ago, Oldblueyes said:

There is a fan perception that if you want to increase your playing skill factors and the importance to a team is sometimes not to play.

Which of course is rubbish. Far better to be able to be on the pitch showing what you can do and making a difference, but to some degree in a team game you will get judged by the performance of the team your playing with, and can easily put in the same bracket of, he was one of the team that were rubbish. After the game the other night Southgate basically said that he had given some younger players a chance in those games and they showed they wasn't good enough. Yet I expect that wasn't true of all of them, but it was an easy conclusion for him to come too, mainly as an excuse for himself in my opinion.  Given Southgates distrust, possibly dislike for Maddison, i do think these games were indeed a very good miss for Maddison, because Southgate can't use the performances as a stick to beat him with, and Maddison now has some in the media talking about him and how his creativity is what England are missing. 

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

Greaves did win a number of caps under Ramsey. It was only during WC that Hunt and Hurst were preferred. 

Didn’t Greaves play until the quarter final in 1966 when he got injured so Hurst came in to the side? Greaves barely played for England again after that iirc.

 

Greaves was always accused of being a small game player for England a lot like Rooney was - scored bags of goals in friendlies or qualifiers and got several big hauls against small nations (especially vs N. Ireland in the home championships) but never turned up for the actual tournaments or against big sides. I think Greaves only ever scored 1 England goal in an actual tournament game.

Edited 17 June 2022 by Sampson

[Foxdiamond]

34 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Didn’t Greaves play until the quarter final in 1966 when he got injured so Hurst came in to the side? Greaves barely played for England again after that iirc.

 

Greaves was always accused of being a small game player for England a lot like Rooney was - scored bags of goals in friendlies or qualifiers and got several big hauls against small nations (especially vs N. Ireland in the home championships) but never turned up for the actual tournaments or against big sides. I think Greaves only ever scored 1 England goal in an actual tournament game.

Yes, he did play in group games. I think Jimmy was a great player. I was lucky enough to see him in action. I think to a degree he carried England before 66. Ramsey was right to leave him out once Hurst did the business against Argentina in QF. Roger Hunt proved his worth too. I suppose we can wonder if England should have played Vardy more instead of Kane or played them together more. Time will tell but I don't think Southgate is going to match Ramsey. The chance went when we lost the penalty shoot out to Italy. BTW I can still remember jumping into my Dad's arms when Geoff scored against Argentina. My older brother was at the match. Boiling hot day.

[Out Foxed]

taken all the divvies 4 years but glad people are finally cottoning onto the fact that Southgate is terrible

 

with the talent we have semi finals should be the least progress we should be making and in both key matches his tactical ineptitude cost us both games. 

 

the man's a shithouse

[Sampson]

6 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Yes, he did play in group games. I think Jimmy was a great player. I was lucky enough to see him in action. I think to a degree he carried England before 66. Ramsey was right to leave him out once Hurst did the business against Argentina in QF. Roger Hunt proved his worth too. I suppose we can wonder if England should have played Vardy more instead of Kane or played them together more. Time will tell but I don't think Southgate is going to match Ramsey. The chance went when we lost the penalty shoot out to Italy. BTW I can still remember jumping into my Dad's arms when Geoff scored against Argentina. My older brother was at the match. Boiling hot day.

He was a great player of course, though so was Hunt, who I think is still Liverpool’s all time top scorer.

 

I’m not criticising Greaves, was just saying I was aware he was often accused of being a small game player for England and never turning up for the big matches. A lot like the accusations Rooney used to get.

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, Sampson said:

He was a great player of course, though so was Hunt, who I think is still Liverpool’s all time top scorer.

 

I’m not criticising Greaves, was just saying I was aware he was often accused of being a small game player for England and never turning up for the big matches. A lot like the accusations Rooney used to get.

I was only a kid so I suppose the criticism went over my head. I think Hunt and Hurst deserve their places in football history. Shame for Greaves but Ramsey was proved right. 

[Dan LCFC]

I agree that it's not as good as the squads of 15-20 years back but it is better than the ones of 5-10.

 

Still think time will show 2018 and 2020 to be huge chances missed. But you do look and think where actually are the great international sides now?

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Out Foxed said:

taken all the divvies 4 years but glad people are finally cottoning onto the fact that Southgate is terrible

 

with the talent we have semi finals should be the least progress we should be making and in both key matches his tactical ineptitude cost us both games. 

 

the man's a shithouse

It’s been obvious for years

the man is a tournament manager - and a lucky one thus far re groups and draws

sets up to be difficult to beat - not pleasant to watch but a good chance of being v effective. 
 

Without any quality centre backs it is difficult to play an expansive game though. 

[Hamilton Fox]

Never a truer word spoken in the sun 

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18929922/england-maddison-snub-borders-on-insanity/

Edited 18 June 2022 by Hamilton Fox

[FoxesWalk]

On 17/06/2022 at 10:29, Fox92 said:

Tbh I always felt Southagte was the first in a long time to not just pick "favourites" or players based on club. He's given debut's to many a player including players like Mitchell at Palace recently and lets not forget he picked Chilwell and Maguire when they were both here.

 

I've never rated Southgate as a manager, nor have I ever thought he should be England manager, but "this England group" is also overrated for me. I see it all the time yet these bunch of players aren't half as good as what they were 15/20 years ago. Maguire and Mings aren't better than Terry and Campbell, none of the midfielders are better than Lampard or Gerrard. I'll give you Kane but even then Michael Owen was superb in his prime.

 

People like to knock those players from 15/20 years ago but they were playing against better sides. For example, we got knocked out of the 2002 World Cup but a Brazil side that included Cafu, Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. We lost in Euro 2004 to a French side that included Vieira, Henry and Zidane. We're not facing sides like that nowadays. These players aren't any better than previous England sides.

2002-2006 ish will remain the biggest waste of an England team for many more years to come. So much talent in that era. Poorly managed. 

[scinnell]

Needs a new long term contract, else we run into another Tielemans situation next summer 

[LFox99]

They've been posting a ridiculous amount of Maddison related stuff in the last few days, reckon we've extended him?

[coolhandfox]

2 minutes ago, LFox99 said:

They've been posting a ridiculous amount of Maddison related stuff in the last few days, reckon we've extended him?

Could be, but could just because he signed 4 years ago today!

[Supergray22]

On 17/06/2022 at 15:22, Dan LCFC said:

I agree that it's not as good as the squads of 15-20 years back but it is better than the ones of 5-10.

 

Still think time will show 2018 and 2020 to be huge chances missed. But you do look and think where actually are the great international sides now?

18-20 will be seen as big chances missed. We have had a decent squad but mainly because of favourable draws and an unusual lack of quality at international level compared to history. Southgate has a certain rapport with some players he worked with in junior England setups and has a nack of avoiding or being drawn into controversy with the media. I don’t rate him highly compared to some of the better England managers. 

[Dan LCFC]

48 minutes ago, Supergray22 said:

18-20 will be seen as big chances missed. We have had a decent squad but mainly because of favourable draws and an unusual lack of quality at international level compared to history. Southgate has a certain rapport with some players he worked with in junior England setups and has a nack of avoiding or being drawn into controversy with the media. I don’t rate him highly compared to some of the better England managers. 

Southgate's in a weird position where you can view him as both somebody who improved our tournament performances quite substantially, and somebody who blew two great opportunities, and both be correct. Depends where you sit on it.

 

The main thing I'll give to Southgate is there are previous England regimes that would've probably blown some of those 'easier' ties. Although being compared to the underperformers is never a good starting point.