Maddison

[Fox92]

31 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Using that analogy, every team would be in the Champions League! Every team misses chances or lets goals in. However, our actual on field performances have previously  over a long period of time been very poor and extremely dull due to managerial tactics employed. Arguably some of the points gained and pisitions we attained were because of individual moments of talent from certain very capable players but certainly nothing to do with managerial prowess. Our pisitions flattered to deceive and a handful of wins against very poor teams at the end of last season and in recent matches are merely papering over the cracks temporarily. 

Can say that about every team.

 

What's the point in managers.

[coolhandfox]

Another thread becoming the Rodgers out thread yawn. 

[volpeazzurro]

5 hours ago, MarriedaLeicesterGirl said:

Yes, but if you are looking to climb the ladder, so to speak, do you want to play for a team winning trophies, or a team not winning trophies? I don't think we can really compete against the the Top 5 (Tottenham is the closest to compete with, because their wage structure is different than the other "big" clubs), but I think the fact we have won trophies in the past 6 years is a selling point for players.

It certainly was I think you're right but ... I think we are now currently looking like a club in decline compared to perhaps some others. I think Rodgers, regardless of whether he or the media believes it has been found out big time. Out of the none traditional big 6, certainly Newcastle are looking attractive and despite their position, Villa have just got a manager who would be more of a selling point than ours. I think we need to get back to where we were behind the scenes and rid ourselves of Rodgers and all of his backroom team and influences. We really can't afford for Top to back him financially in the summer. Just my opinion. 

[volpeazzurro]

4 hours ago, Fox92 said:

Can say that about every team.

 

What's the point in managers.

A good manager will galvanise his players and get the best out of them by exploiting their best talents in a system that suits them. Ours wants and dictates a system regardless of what players he's got.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

6 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

Well if you can't see why two seasons running and overall poor managerial performance for over 18 months, I'll leave it with you. One match against Spurs is hardly the point. If you in the course of your work were offered a seemingly better job elsewhere with better prospects for success and a large pairwise you'd be mad not to consider it.

5th is an underperformance? On what planet do you live?

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

5th is an underperformance? On what planet do you live?

Two years running towards the end of the season the team underperformed shockingly regardless of finishing position. If you didn't see that you can't have been looking very hard. Both seasons started well until Rodgers stuck his big fat feet into the mix more and more. As for last year's 8th, if it wasn't for the gimme 9 points at the end we were in relegation form. Try watching the football and not just a screen with the league table on.

[Nicolo Barella]

4 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Two years running towards the end of the season the team underperformed shockingly regardless of finishing position. If you didn't see that you can't have been looking very hard. Both seasons started well until Rodgers stuck his big fat feet into the mix more and more. As for last year's 8th, if it wasn't for the gimme 9 points at the end we were in relegation form. Try watching the football and not just a screen with the league table on.

I dunno man, Rodgers cocked up at the end of both seasons, sure, but he was also good enough at the start to get us into that position in the first place... There was also a fair amount of bad luck qith regards to injuries

[Mr Weller 2]

2 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

It certainly was I think you're right but ... I think we are now currently looking like a club in decline compared to perhaps some others. I think Rodgers, regardless of whether he or the media believes it has been found out big time. Out of the none traditional big 6, certainly Newcastle are looking attractive and despite their position, Villa have just got a manager who would be more of a selling point than ours. I think we need to get back to where we were behind the scenes and rid ourselves of Rodgers and all of his backroom team and influences. We really can't afford for Top to back him financially in the summer. Just my opinion. 

You’re confusing current form with the club itself. The club itself has never been stronger but the current team have certainly been struggling.  

[SafewayFox]

Back to Madders….it’s very worrying that there aren’t more rumours about contract talks etc.

 

Imagine the scenes if in two consecutive summers we let Youri then Madders walk as free agents.

 

I know it’s not exclusive just to us but highlights how hard it is for a club to truly be self sufficient as the owners want us to be.

[smudger63]

4 hours ago, SafewayFox said:

Back to Madders….it’s very worrying that there aren’t more rumours about contract talks etc.

 

Imagine the scenes if in two consecutive summers we let Youri then Madders walk as free agents.

 

I know it’s not exclusive just to us but highlights how hard it is for a club to truly be self sufficient as the owners want us to be.

There is no way Maddison will sign a contract extension now.  He is playing at a high standard, that he knows will have some top clubs looking in his direction. He will have seen how difficult it was for Fofana to get out of the club after his contract extension, without him throwing his toys out of the pram, and we as a club are not looking like a club on the rise at the moment, and he will know he has the chance of a big move away, where he has a decent chance of europeon football every season. We won't let him leave for nothing, which means we either sell in January, when he will command a slightly bigger fee than the summer, or we sell in the summer for less. As for Tielemans, if an offer comes in for him in January from a club he wants to join in January, we are likely to sell him, all be it for a low ball price, rather than lose him for nothing in the summer.  The fact that their contracts have been allowed to run down so far, when we really should have been looking to extend them when we were in a position of strength, looking like a team on the rise, is another case of the incompetence of those running the club I'm afraid. There is going to have to be a big rebuild in the summer, and the recruitment will define where we go too for the next 5 years.

[Gazza M]

I think Tielemans will go in Jan and Maddison will unfortunately go in the summer. 

 

What we need to be doing is going back to getting the younger upcoming players again at the front of the conveyer belt if that is our business modal for raising funds. 

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, smudger63 said:

There is no way Maddison will sign a contract extension now.  He is playing at a high standard, that he knows will have some top clubs looking in his direction. He will have seen how difficult it was for Fofana to get out of the club after his contract extension, without him throwing his toys out of the pram, and we as a club are not looking like a club on the rise at the moment, and he will know he has the chance of a big move away, where he has a decent chance of europeon football every season. We won't let him leave for nothing, which means we either sell in January, when he will command a slightly bigger fee than the summer, or we sell in the summer for less. As for Tielemans, if an offer comes in for him in January from a club he wants to join in January, we are likely to sell him, all be it for a low ball price, rather than lose him for nothing in the summer.  The fact that their contracts have been allowed to run down so far, when we really should have been looking to extend them when we were in a position of strength, looking like a team on the rise, is another case of the incompetence of those running the club I'm afraid. There is going to have to be a big rebuild in the summer, and the recruitment will define where we go too for the next 5 years.

you think that we haven’t been trying to get both players to sign new deals (for the past couple seasons in tielemans case and throughout last season on madders ) ???
 

players now are seeing out contracts, especially when they aren’t in the 175/250k areas 

 

the security offered by signing 100k deal compared to the riches of a s/o fee on a free doesn’t stack up 

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

8 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

Two years running towards the end of the season the team underperformed shockingly regardless of finishing position. If you didn't see that you can't have been looking very hard. Both seasons started well until Rodgers stuck his big fat feet into the mix more and more. As for last year's 8th, if it wasn't for the gimme 9 points at the end we were in relegation form. Try watching the football and not just a screen with the league table on.

You're in a very disappointing few years / lifetime if you can't appreciate that.

[ARM1968]

10 hours ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

5th is an underperformance? On what planet do you live?

Probably the one where we SHOULD have finished 4th twice but failed to do so due to miserable collapses in form. 
 

IF you’ve been locked into the top 4 all season, then dropping to 5th at the last minute IS an underperformance. 

[gerblod]

On 26/10/2022 at 06:54, John12345 said:

Newcastle a likely choice. They have unlimited money and aren't packed with stars so he will be a key player.

He'd get into most teams - star-ridden or not. Surprised he's still at City - speaks volumes for his attitude.

[StanSP]

29 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

Probably the one where we SHOULD have finished 4th twice but failed to do so due to miserable collapses in form. 
 

IF you’ve been locked into the top 4 all season, then dropping to 5th at the last minute IS an underperformance. 

Generally just harsh to call a 5th placed finish for a club of out stature an 'underperformance'. 

 

In the context of that season, perhaps. It's still fantastic considering who and what we're competing against. 

 

In the context of us as a club, as a whole, its incredible. 

[Sean2000]

8 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Generally just harsh to call a 5th placed finish for a club of out stature an 'underperformance'. 

 

In the context of that season, perhaps. It's still fantastic considering who and what we're competing against. 

 

In the context of us as a club, as a whole, its incredible. 

True, and yet everything that has happened since is a consequence of not getting into the Champions League two years running. Money, squad strength, mentality, motivation can all be traced back to those end of season collapses. To misquote Oscar Wilde "To collapse at the end of one season, Mr Rodgers, may be regarded as a misfortune; to collapse twice looks like carelessness.”

[Ric Flair]

It is a real dilemma on Maddison, the thought of selling him is horrible but if we get to the summer and he hasn't signed a new deal then the reality is we are going to have to sell him for less than £40m. Awful, especially on the back of us losing £60-70m of talent on a free in Tielemans and Soyuncu by the looks of it.

 

Financially this is just beggars belief for a team that badly needs to raise finances and/or cut costs.

 

All of this on the back of knowing we have a manager on £10m a year as well just doesn't make sense either, it's the thing I can't get past with Rodgers situation here. The club and Brendan must know that come 2025 if he is somehow still here, his next contract is half that at best which is tough to stomach for the manager and brings even more motivation and morale questions. 

[coolhandfox]

I find it intriguing that LCFC fans see a 5th place finish as a failure, it was a disappointment not to get CL football on two occasions. But if you think 5th is a failure then you are setting yourself up for a miserable time as an LCFC fans.

 

Post War our best league finishes are:

 

1961-62 6th (4th best league finish)

1962-63 4th (2nd best league finish) 

1965-66 7th (Joint 5th best league finish)

1966-67 8th (Joint 6th best league finish)

1975-76 7th (Joint 5th best league finish)

1999-20 8th (Joint 6th best league finish)

2015-16 1st (Best league finish)

2019-20 5th (Joint 3rd best league finish)

2020-21 5th (Joint 3rd best league finish)

2021-22 8th (Joint 6th best league finish)

 

5th is our 3rd best finish in 77 years of football, even 8th is in our top 6 finishes. 

 

Considering 20-21 we finish 5th and won the FA Cup for the first time in our history it is crazy to label that season a failure.

 

If 19/20, 20/21 and 2021,22 are failed seasons, I'd take failure every year 

[Ric Flair]

7 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I find it intriguing that LCFC fans see a 5th place finish as a failure, it was a disappointment not to get CL football on two occasions. But if you think 5th is a failure then you are setting yourself up for a miserable time as an LCFC fans.

 

Post War our best league finishes are:

 

1961-62 6th (4th best league finish)

1962-63 4th (2nd best league finish) 

1965-66 7th (Joint 5th best league finish)

1966-67 8th (Joint 6th best league finish)

1975-76 7th (Joint 5th best league finish)

1999-20 8th (Joint 6th best league finish)

2015-16 1st (Best league finish)

2019-20 5th (Joint 3rd best league finish)

2020-21 5th (Joint 3rd best league finish)

2021-22 8th (Joint 6th best league finish)

 

5th is our 3rd best finish in 77 years of football, even 8th is in our top 6 finishes. 

 

Considering 20-21 we finish 5th and won the FA Cup for the first time in our history it is crazy to label that season a failure.

 

If 19/20, 20/21 and 2021,22 are failed seasons, I'd take failure every year 

It's a debate that people will have over and over and it very much depends on what merit you place on the position we'd gotten ourselves in to and then to capitulate twice in the exact same manner and do what appeared to be harder than to see it through and get top 4.

 

Taking emotion out of it, taking clear poor form and possible under performance out of the final parts of those seasons then 5th place is evidently a very good achievement from us, not once but twice and a major honour at the same time too.

 

If you were tasked to write about a club of our ambition against those with bigger resources than us and the only information you were given were we finished 5th, 5th and won the FA Cup then there would be very little criticism or negative connotation you could legitimately pose. The issue is as fans we witnessed it, we have more than the end position to judge and measure and we fluffed our lines horribly down the stretch both seasons. We shit it, we failed to strengthen each January to try and help prevent that. 

 

So I can see why some fans cannot sit there and not feel something within them about those two seasons that could be considered a disappointment, but that's also flawed as well because although you can be disappointed thinking about " what if " and rhat it was tainted, but it most definitely isn't a failure. But even me writing that, I err on wanting to say something else. I want to add that there's regret and bitterness which is nuts. Also is there something that could be plausible around failure on that 2nd season and repeating the same thing again, we didn't learn, we didn't improve. Torn, conflicted. 

[coolhandfox]

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

It is a real dilemma on Maddison, the thought of selling him is horrible but if we get to the summer and he hasn't signed a new deal then the reality is we are going to have to sell him for less than £40m. Awful, especially on the back of us losing £60-70m of talent on a free in Tielemans and Soyuncu by the looks of it.

 

Financially this is just beggars belief for a team that badly needs to raise finances and/or cut costs.

 

All of this on the back of knowing we have a manager on £10m a year as well just doesn't make sense either, it's the thing I can't get past with Rodgers situation here. The club and Brendan must know that come 2025 if he is somehow still here, his next contract is half that at best which is tough to stomach for the manager and brings even more motivation and morale questions. 

I think we have to learn a lesson, no player of value should be here with less than 2 years on their contract.

 

I think the club gambled on Tielemans, we had been so close in 19/20, and 20/21 to the champion league that they thought the investment in the summer and keeping our best players we could get over the line and securing CL football would get him to sign. But that dream died on the back of one tackle. 

 

I think we are in for a massive rebuild and refocus in the summer, I think the club made a decision to ride out a difficult season.  I think the hierarchy still sees BR as a good coach but realises it needs to take more control over other matters, i.e. recruitment on and off the field.

 

Glover is an interesting appointment, I think it is a signal we will be loosing to find those rough diamonds again and the days of spending 30m on a player maybe few and far between. 

[coolhandfox]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

It's a debate that people will have over and over and it very much depends on what merit you place on the position we'd gotten ourselves in to and then to capitulate twice in the exact same manner and do what appeared to be harder than to see it through and get top 4.

And it is a healthy debate.

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Taking emotion out of it, taking clear poor form and possible under performance out of the final parts of those seasons then 5th place is evidently a very good achievement from us, not once but twice and a major honour at the same time too.

 

If you were tasked to write about a club of our ambition against those with bigger resources than us and the only information you were given were we finished 5th, 5th and won the FA Cup then there would be very little criticism or negative connotation you could legitimately pose. The issue is as fans we witnessed it, we have more than the end position to judge and measure and we fluffed our lines horribly down the stretch both seasons. We shit it, we failed to strengthen each January to try and help prevent that. 

I think this was our key mistake in my view, being so close, one player could have pushed us over the line on both occasions.

 

No surprise that the team that pipped us in 19/20 Man U spend 50m on Fernandes who contributed 8 goals, and 7 assists in 14 matches, and 20/21 Chelsea recruited one of Europe's elite managers. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

 

So I can see why some fans cannot sit there and not feel something within them about those two seasons that could be considered a disappointment, but that's also flawed as well because although you can be disappointed thinking about " what if " and rhat it was tainted, but it most definitely isn't a failure. But even me writing that, I err on wanting to say something else. I want to add that there's regret and bitterness which is nuts. Also is there something that could be plausible around failure on that 2nd season and repeating the same thing again, we didn't learn, we didn't improve. Torn, conflicted. 

I think disappointment, and being upset are all valid feelings but for people to label those seasons as a failure is nuts 

[Cecchini1976]

10 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

Two years running towards the end of the season the team underperformed shockingly regardless of finishing position. If you didn't see that you can't have been looking very hard. Both seasons started well until Rodgers stuck his big fat feet into the mix more and more. As for last year's 8th, if it wasn't for the gimme 9 points at the end we were in relegation form. Try watching the football and not just a screen with the league table on.

Maybe we over performed at the start of the season and the final position over 38 games was the right position

[Fox92]

13 minutes ago, Cecchini1976 said:

Maybe we over performed at the start of the season and the final position over 38 games was the right position

Exactly. That's why we have a league table after all. Season is played over 38 games not 15 or 20.

[Fox92]

13 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

It certainly was I think you're right but ... I think we are now currently looking like a club in decline compared to perhaps some others. I think Rodgers, regardless of whether he or the media believes it has been found out big time. Out of the none traditional big 6, certainly Newcastle are looking attractive and despite their position, Villa have just got a manager who would be more of a selling point than ours. I think we need to get back to where we were behind the scenes and rid ourselves of Rodgers and all of his backroom team and influences. We really can't afford for Top to back him financially in the summer. Just my opinion. 

Rodgers, he's never finished outside the top 10 with us, one poor finish is being "found out".

 

Newcastle looking attractive to who? They've had a good start, they'll probably won't finish top 6 over the course of a season and have still won fvck all in 50 years.