Maddison

[StanSP]

3 minutes ago, TheFish said:

I knew it would be an unpopular opinion, but boy oh boy did I stir up the hornets nest.

 

It reminds me of arguments with fellow Newcastle fans about our best player not really being 'World Class'. Like, Saint-Maximin is an amazing footballer, even when he's not having one of his days, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for an elite side. (No, I'm not saying Maddison is worse than ASM).

 

Maddison is your best player, and you love him. Some jumped up Northerner saying he isn't 'elite' is bound to rattle you a bit. If someone dared suggest Bruno Guimaraes isn't the second coming on a Newcastle board, you'd get the same response. I just don't think Maddison is good enough to 'get into literally any side in the world'.

It's not even rattling. 

 

It's just an opinion and in our defence, ours is likely to be more informed than yours. 

[coolhandfox]

Yeah his not elite 

 

	PL Games	Goals	Assists	Total Goal Contribution	Games Per goal contribution
Grealish	140	21	23	44	3.18
Maddison	150	42	28	70	2.14
Mount	127	27	22	49	2.59
Foden	118	31	16	47	2.51

 

[filbertway]

14 minutes ago, TheFish said:

You all seem to have taken great offence, and that wasn't my intent. 

 

Maddison is very good, there's no question about that. But if he was truly the superstar you think he is, why haven't the elite clubs dropped huge sums on Leicester to tempt him to leave. Leicester have sold their best players before, Maddison's contract only has 16 months left to go, he plays in a role that most elite teams utilise, it's the consensus that Leicester have holes to fill in their finances. These are all positives for a buying side before you even get to the player himself. 

 

You'd think that one of them would have tested your resolve, but instead of them, it was us. 

 

His form for you is amazing, but objectively he's not as good as the players for his role, playing for the elite sides.

I think Madders issue is that he hadn't shown any sort of consistency till the past 12-18 months. He'd be class for a a month or so then disappear for 3 months.

 

He's had a major attitude shift since having a kid. He was doing training camps with Jordan Henderson and The Ox through the summer instead of sunning it up for weeks.

 

I'd be massively surprised if there's not interest in him this summer. The main concern is that he's clearly struggling with a long term injury issue and that may be something that puts clubs of wanting to lay down a lot of money for him.

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, filbertway said:

I think Madders issue is that he hadn't shown any sort of consistency till the past 12-18 months. He'd be class for a a month or so then disappear for 3 months.

 

He's had a major attitude shift since having a kid. He was doing training camps with Jordan Henderson and The Ox through the summer instead of sunning it up for weeks.

 

I'd be massively surprised if there's not interest in him this summer. The main concern is that he's clearly struggling with a long term injury issue and that may be something that puts clubs of wanting to lay down a lot of money for him.

I actually think that maybe his injury record at the moment is hindering his chances of a big move - could well be a good thing for us maybe?!

[coolhandfox]

@thefish, so by your argument Shearer has never been elite because he never played for an elite club?

 

 

Edited 23 February 2023 by coolhandfox

[Tommy G]

Maddison is elite, the only thing that will hold him back is his injury record. 

[Ric Flair]

18 minutes ago, TheFish said:

You all seem to have taken great offence, and that wasn't my intent. 

 

Maddison is very good, there's no question about that. But if he was truly the superstar you think he is, why haven't the elite clubs dropped huge sums on Leicester to tempt him to leave. Leicester have sold their best players before, Maddison's contract only has 16 months left to go, he plays in a role that most elite teams utilise, it's the consensus that Leicester have holes to fill in their finances. These are all positives for a buying side before you even get to the player himself. 

 

You'd think that one of them would have tested your resolve, but instead of them, it was us. 

 

His form for you is amazing, but objectively he's not as good as the players for his role, playing for the elite sides.

His end product the last 18 months blows any other ACM out the water in the PL bar KDB who runs him very close.

 

His form in 2020/21 before his injury in February of that season had him on course to be double figures for PL goals and the two seasons before that he compared quite well to the very best, certainly someone like Jack Grealish.

 

Why he hasn't yet gone to one of the big 6 is not purely to do with him not being good enough, as I've said above, his record is up there with any ACM in the Prem, I think its to do with how expensive he'd be and that we only sell 1 key player a season maximum.

 

By your metrics Riyad Mahrez wasn't good enough to join an elite team because although he'd won the PFA player of the year award for us and won the Prem, he hadn't been sold by us for another 3 years so he obviously wasn't good enough. The fact is clubs tried to sign him (Roma, Arsenal, Man City) but we wouldn't budge on the valuation. Eventually a compromise was reached that following summer and he went for £65m but propr to that you couldn't say he wasn't good enough.

 

The same will happen with Maddison. He will join Man City or one of the elite this summer and the fee will be relatively large but not as large as it should be due to his contract situation. The only way Newcastle get him is to pay big and I don't think you will be willing to given your laughable bids for him last summer.

 

[TheFish]

51 minutes ago, StanSP said:

It's not even rattling. 

 

It's just an opinion and in our defence, ours is likely to be more informed than yours. 

Absolutely, you see him every week. However, I would argue that your opinions will also be more coloured by bias? I can only go off what I see on tv and from his performance metrics. I'd love him at Newcastle.

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

3 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

His end product the last 18 months blows any other ACM out the water in the PL bar KDB who runs him very close.

 

His form in 2020/21 before his injury in February of that season had him on course to be double figures for PL goals and the two seasons before that he compared quite well to the very best, certainly someone like Jack Grealish.

 

Why he hasn't yet gone to one of the big 6 is not purely to do with him not being good enough, as I've said above, his record is up there with any ACM in the Prem, I think its to do with how expensive he'd be and that we only sell 1 key player a season maximum.

 

By your metrics Riyad Mahrez wasn't good enough to join an elite team because although he'd won the PFA player of the year award for us and won the Prem, he hadn't been sold by us for another 3 years so he obviously wasn't good enough. The fact is clubs tried to sign him (Roma, Arsenal, Man City) but we wouldn't budge on the valuation. Eventually a compromise was reached that following summer and he went for £65m but propr to that you couldn't say he wasn't good enough.

 

The same will happen with Maddison. He will join Man City or one of the elite this summer and the fee will be relatively large but not as large as it should be due to his contract situation. The only way Newcastle get him is to pay big and I don't think you will be willing to given your laughable bids for him last summer.

 

I also think that he's quite happy to be here. Team built around him, star player, and we're amongst best-of-the-rest. I'm not saying he'll never leave, but i don't think he's in a hurry to.

[The Doctor]

"I can only go off his performance metrics"

 

the ones where he's got a goal involvement (goal or assist) every 97 minutes of game time this season (for comparison, KdB is at a goal involvement every 117 minutes).

 

or over the last 18 months, 34 goal involvements in 3847 minutes, 1 every 113 minutes (KdB is 39 in 4096 minutes or 1 every 105 minutes in the same period)

 

by his performance metrics, he's a top class player, it's his injury record that's keeping him here rather than at somewhere like man city 

[Ric Flair]

48 minutes ago, filbertway said:

I think Madders issue is that he hadn't shown any sort of consistency till the past 12-18 months. He'd be class for a a month or so then disappear for 3 months.

 

He's had a major attitude shift since having a kid. He was doing training camps with Jordan Henderson and The Ox through the summer instead of sunning it up for weeks.

 

I'd be massively surprised if there's not interest in him this summer. The main concern is that he's clearly struggling with a long term injury issue and that may be something that puts clubs of wanting to lay down a lot of money for him.

I don't think it's that, look at 2020/21 he'd shown more than enough form until his injury in Feb that year. He was on for double figures in PL goals.

 

 

 

[Ric Flair]

16 minutes ago, TheFish said:

Absolutely, you see him every week. However, I would argue that your opinions will also be more coloured by bias? I can only go off what I see on tv and from his performance metrics. I'd love him at Newcastle.

 

 

His performance metrics probably pitch him amongst the best ACMs in Europe do they not? He's astonishingly good. He's also the best long range finisher in the world, there is no-one better, not JWP, not KDB.

[TheFish]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

His performance metrics probably pitch him amongst the best ACMs in Europe do they not? He's astonishingly good. He's also the best long range finisher in the world, there is no-one better, not JWP, not KDB.

Depends how granular you want to get. Headline Goals and Assists he does very well, but if you start deep diving into statistics he fares less well. Still good, but not elite. fbref puts him alongside players like Dybala, Hofman, Berardi, Pellegrini. Not bad company.

[Ric Flair]

5 minutes ago, TheFish said:

Depends how granular you want to get. Headline Goals and Assists he does very well, but if you start deep diving into statistics he fares less well. Still good, but not elite. fbref puts him alongside players like Dybala, Hofman, Berardi, Pellegrini. Not bad company.

End product and creativity through passing and he's pretty much elite level, they will be queuing up for him this summer as he'll be available for £50m, we may get a bit more if there's a proper bidding war. The goals and assists he brings makes him worth double that when you consider what the likes of Grealish, Havertz and other attacking midfielders have transferred for in recent years who can't get near Maddisons numbers.

[The_77]

1 hour ago, TheFish said:

I knew it would be an unpopular opinion, but boy oh boy did I stir up the hornets nest.

 

It reminds me of arguments with fellow Newcastle fans about our best player not really being 'World Class'. Like, Saint-Maximin is an amazing footballer, even when he's not having one of his days, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for an elite side. (No, I'm not saying Maddison is worse than ASM).

 

Maddison is your best player, and you love him. Some jumped up Northerner saying he isn't 'elite' is bound to rattle you a bit. If someone dared suggest Bruno Guimaraes isn't the second coming on a Newcastle board, you'd get the same response. I just don't think Maddison is good enough to 'get into literally any side in the world'.

He’s good enough not to have to go to Newcastle.  

[kingkisnorbo]

Best English attacking midfielder currently at it. And the other three in contention for that play for objectively “elite” clubs. The guys at the level, comfortably. 

[filbertway]

22 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

His performance metrics probably pitch him amongst the best ACMs in Europe do they not? He's astonishingly good. He's also the best long range finisher in the world, there is no-one better, not JWP, not KDB.

Come on mate  He can hit a beautiful long ranger but my god some of his shots are stonkingly bad as well. I just don't know how someone who hits so many poor shots can be claimed to be THE best in the world. 

 

I refuse to believe there's not at least one person in the whole world who's a better long distance finisher. Becoming a podcast superstar is inflating your ego far too much mate, you're getting obscenely confident and outrageous with some of your shouts   

 

[Le Renard]

Probably been said on here a 100 times, but the club has truly dropped the ball on its assets.  Maddison will be off for £50 million or it could even be less with 1 year on his contract, let's hope for a bidding war so it pushes the price up! 

[TheFish]

18 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

End product and creativity through passing and he's pretty much elite level, they will be queuing up for him this summer as he'll be available for £50m, we may get a bit more if there's a proper bidding war. The goals and assists he brings makes him worth double that when you consider what the likes of Grealish, Havertz and other attacking midfielders have transferred for in recent years who can't get near Maddisons numbers.

Aye but goals and assists aren't enough these days. Maddison's got ability in spades, but is he there defensively?

I've compared him to the three Newcastle midfielders and while his goals and assists outstrip theirs, his passing, possession, and defensive actions are comparable or worse. These three are not elite players. (well... maybe Bruno but I'm not getting into a fight about that)

 

Will he go for £50m when he's only got a year on his contract? 

Edited 23 February 2023 by TheFish

[pmcla26]

2 minutes ago, TheFish said:

Aye but goals and assists aren't enough these days. Maddison's got ability in spades, but is he there defensively?

I've compared him to the three Newcastle midfielders and while his goals and assists outstrip theirs, his passing, possession, and defensive actions are comparable or worse. These three are not elite players. (well... maybe Bruno but I'm not getting into a fight about that)

 

Will he go for £50m when he's only got a year on his contract? 

Maddison's passing comparable or worse than Longstaff or Willock? Assuming you mean those two and Bruno? 

 

Edit: Just seen your edit. There's no point really comparing those 4 players when they're all completely different types of players. Bruno vs Tielemans would be a better comparison. Or Willock vs Maddison, maybe. 

Edited 23 February 2023 by Pete52

[TheFish]

1 minute ago, Pete52 said:

Maddison's passing comparable or worse than Longstaff or Willock? Assuming you mean those two and Bruno? 

Bruno, Joelinton and Longstaff

[pmcla26]

Way I see it is that for the last 18 months, the only ACM's in the league you could make an argument for being better than Maddison is Odegaard, Fernandes and De Bruyne. 

 

He's a £60m+ player who we will lose for probably cheaper due to his contract situation. 

 

He's one of the best in his position in the league and that's all that really matters.

[The Doctor]

"This creative ACM doesn't do as well at defensive actions as the box to box cloggers" 

 

Stick to fighting police horses lad

Edited 23 February 2023 by The Doctor

[TheFish]

Just now, The Doctor said:

"This creative ACM does do as good at defensive actions as the box to box cloggers" 

 

Stick to fighting police horses lad

The kind of pressing elite teams do now means that they need all of their players to pressure the opposition. Even Attackers, that's why we've been using ASM less. Sure he's got the kind of control that will leave a right back with twisted blood, but if his indolence means our press is easily bypassed, we're better off with a less gifted footballer who does do the hard graft, like Willock.

[kingkisnorbo]

Longstaff and Joelinton. Give me strength lord.

Edited 23 February 2023 by kingkisnorbo