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Sly

Ozan Kabak

By Sly, in Transfer Talk

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urban.spaceman

urban.spaceman

Posted
Posted

Players at CB last season:

(Retired/released in italics)

 

Little Wes

Soyuncu

Evans

Morgan

Fuchs

JJ

Castagne

Amartey

Ndidi

 

If we were to replace Big Wes and Fuchs with Kabak and Bertrand I'd be happy, though like others have said I'd prefer to have a more experienced head to be able to bring on. Unless with Soumare available we're considering throwing Wilf into the role if needed for the last few minutes?

 

51 minutes ago, escape2victory said:

Not going to get too much better defensive squad depth than this in the Prem to be honest:

 

Castagne        Fofana     Evans       Justin

Ricardo      Soyuncu     Kabak      Bertrand

VDC.         Benkovic                      Thomas

Added a couple you missed, though they may well be off on loan.

 

If all of those are fully fit then we have some incredible options for defence this season.

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lcfc_forever

lcfc_forever

Posted
Posted

Ideally we would be bringing in an experienced centre half.

 

But the value doesn't seem to be there, for example for Tarkowski as Burnley are unwilling to sell.

 

Instead the value is there for Kabak with a higher upside so it makes sense to sign him when the asking price is so low. Might mean extra funds for a winger as well. 

 

Hopefully we can sign Tarkowski on a free transfer next time. 

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Blanchflower78

Blanchflower78

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, kingfox said:

This will be my last point as it’s a fair one.

 

If that’s the case, why are we signing Ryan Bertrand?

 

Reinforcements with an eye on developing here is our usual strategy, that doesn’t mean it should be our strategy all of the time.

 

We’re signing Bertrand for a reason, to replace the experience we’ve lost in Fuchs, because it’s a sensible signing to make.

 

People think I’m slagging off Kabak and he’d be a terrible signing, that isn’t the case. I’d have Kabak at Leicester, but at this moment in time he isn’t the right fit for what we need, especially after losing Wes.

 

I’ll leave it there :thumbup:

Thomas is the developing left back already in place... Bertrand for Fuchs no brainer? JJ to come back in this season also.

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coolhandfox

coolhandfox

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

He's out of contract, Palace would have no say in the matter.

Good point.

 

However I'm not sure he will come to be 4th choice behind Evans, Soy and Fofana.

 

Not without a very health wage.

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Raw Dykes

Raw Dykes

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53 minutes ago, kingfox said:

CB’s at that age can also still do the business when called upon, just look at Fonte last season, just look at Chiellini & Bonucci at the Euros.

 

You have to weigh up the bigger picture, especially as we’ve just lost a key experienced figure in Wes. We could sign Kabak this summer, we could sign Tarkowski next summer, we’d be left with five CB’s, bit unnecessary.

 

If we sign Kabak and Evans ends up getting injured, I seriously hope we revert to a back two, of Soyuncu/Fofana or Soyuncu Kabak. A back three of Soyuncu, Kabak & Fofana is just too inexperienced to play at this level, I doubt many fans would have confidence in it. 
 

Those scenarios are a risk that could easily backfire, and if it does backfire, then not only could we miss out on top four again, they’ll be many fans saying “We should have got experience”.

 

Sometimes I think some fans don’t understand how vital a player like Evans is, he is like gorilla glue in that defence.

Yes, a lot of older CBs can still perform at a high level, but as I said, there is a danger that they decline rapidly in their mid-late 30s.

 

I think I am looking at the bigger picture. I've said I agree that I'd prefer an experienced player, but when you factor in the possible lack of affordable, good enough experienced CBs on the market, and the bargain on offer here, perhaps it makes more sense to get this deal done and put faith in the talented, albeit younger, CBs already at the club. If we do get Tarkowski for free next summer, one of the younger CBs could be sold, or Evans may become more of a squad player.

 

I'd sooner we play with a back 4 in any case, as I think we've played our best football with that. It remains to be seen how we'd get on if we were forced to pick from Cags/Fofana/Kabak at CB. I think there would be shaky moments to begin with, but I think they would improve the longer they played alongside each other.

 

Having to play with a young CB pairing can backfire, of course, but then so can signing a 35/37 year-old player and ending up having to rely on him for any length of time. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have wanted us to have had to start Morgan game after game the season just gone. I'm not saying Cahill or Fonte are as past-it as Wes was last season, but it can easily happen at their age. If we miss out on Kabak, some other club will get a great deal, and there'll be many fans saying, "We should have signed Kabak." Weren't we being quoted £40m last year? At £12m, I think we'd be foolish not to try to get it done. That's a steal.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think the presence of Evans has been crucial to our recent success. I just doubt there's another like him currently on the market that makes financial sense.

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Clever Fox

Clever Fox

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Posted

I doubt we can do much better for the money. He has experience of the league already and playing with Soyuncu as a fellow national will help him settle in.

 

With Evans to advise and tutor him he could prove another very shrewd signing. He also must have learnt something from Van Dijk.

So it could be a very positive signing with little downside.

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An Sionnach

An Sionnach

Posted
Posted (edited)

My thinking is that without Jonny or an experienced back up , we could find ourselves bottom half. If we do, those players who who we thought we would add value to could be worth less than we payed for them.Value is often determined by results . Players in struggling teams lose value very quickly. There are younger CBs with the quality we need but we can't afford them. In a couple of years and a hundred more top class matches ,Fofana and Soyuncu should have formed a really solid and dependable partnership. I don't think they are ready yet. Rodgers needs to persuade the club to find the money for Tarkowski. If he goes free at the end of next season we will be in serious competition for his signature. You only have to look at Liverpool without Van Dyke and Matip to see what can happen to a team when they lose their experienced CBs. Juventus won't be changing their CBs anytime soon and they have a combined age of 70.

Edited by An Sionnach
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STUHILL

STUHILL

Posted
Posted

Think people are over egging the "Experience" element of a signing. 

 

Experience doesn't determine success. It is just a factor that may help. On the flip side, youth and hunger to prove themselves is also a factor that may help.

 

You also can't pigeon hole all young players as inexperienced and needing babysitting. Each player and signing is different. 

 

I would much prefer to just have a top performing CB, regardless of their experience or age. 

 

I get that there is a gamble to having another young CB as 4th choice, but Kabak is far from inexperienced at the top level. 

 

At the price being quoted, the fact he will be 4th choice and then also the difficulty of signing a top, experienced CB who would be OK as back-up only, then this would tick more boxes than not IMO. 

 

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, messerschmitt said:

I think a few people are getting experienced and old muddled up.

Added to which you have to take into account what it is the player has actually experienced. Tarkowski's getting spoken about like he's some world class veteran who's seen and done it all when in reality his experience isn't really comparable to that of someone like Evans. Even if it were, Evans is important to our defence primarily because he's a really good defender, not because he's old or because he won the Champions League in 2008.

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Muzzy_Larsson

Muzzy_Larsson

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22 minutes ago, Guest said:

Added to which you have to take into account what it is the player has actually experienced. Tarkowski's getting spoken about like he's some world class veteran who's seen and done it all when in reality his experience isn't really comparable to that of someone like Evans. Even if it were, Evans is important to our defence primarily because he's a really good defender, not because he's old or because he won the Champions League in 2008.

I think the experience people refer to with Tarkowski is premier league experience and a comfort of knowing what your going to get.

 

I don't really rate Kabak but the thing with him is many believe in time he'd have a higher ceiling than someone like Tarkowski.

 

The risk factor with Kabak then becomes will he be reliable in the short term to come in and do a job akin to those that already there in Soyuncu, Fofana and Evans.

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An Sionnach

An Sionnach

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I love the way so many think top 6 is our natural status these days , we need to look back to the season after the premiership win. We will have to fight even harder to stay in there this coming season . You can guarantee there will be plenty of pressure on our defence. Hopefully Bertrand will be with us to bolster it but we desperately need another experienced defender. We conceded 50 goals last season, if that goes up to 60 we are going to finish well in the bottom half.

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dbtcity

dbtcity

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1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

My thinking is that without Jonny or an experienced back up , we could find ourselves bottom half. If we do, those players who who we thought we would add value to could be worth less than we payed for them.Value is often determined by results . Players in struggling teams lose value very quickly. There are younger CBs with the quality we need but we can't afford them. In a couple of years and a hundred more top class matches ,Fofana and Soyuncu should have formed a really solid and dependable partnership. I don't think they are ready yet. Rodgers needs to persuade the club to find the money for Tarkowski. If he goes free at the end of next season we will be in serious competition for his signature. You only have to look at Liverpool without Van Dyke and Matip to see what can happen to a team when they lose their experienced CBs. Juventus won't be changing their CBs anytime soon and they have a combined age of 70.

There were more issues at hand than simply just missing an experienced head… I’d say 1) little Wes and Cags are both to similar in terms of they are both aggressive and defend on the front foot (not ideal for a cb pairing) 2) they never had a settled full back along side them and 3) the language barrier! We can’t start writing off highly rated youngsters based solely upon having enough experience imo…. I’m sure similar discussions were had last season pre signing Fofana and he turned out to be half decent 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

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STUHILL

STUHILL

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2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

can we stop acting like Cags is some inexperience kid? He has plenty of experience himself we don't need to buy a CB to get more

Exactly! He just had a patchy season and Euros, but on his day, he is more than capable of being one of the best CB's in the league. He is likely to only get better from his experiences last season. 

 

Fofana also plays like someone who has been at this level for years. He even excels in it! He also will be even better this season

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Guest

Guest

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35 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

I think the experience people refer to with Tarkowski is premier league experience and a comfort of knowing what your going to get.

 

I don't really rate Kabak but the thing with him is many believe in time he'd have a higher ceiling than someone like Tarkowski.

 

The risk factor with Kabak then becomes will he be reliable in the short term to come in and do a job akin to those that already there in Soyuncu, Fofana and Evans.

I just fundamentally take issue with the ideas that a) the four or five years Tarkowski has spent playing Dycheball are going to be the deciding factor between our success and failure and that b) the departure of Wes Morgan, who played about 300 minutes across the entire season, means it's imperative we bring in an old centre back.

 

You know when you read a word so many times that it stops seeming like it's a real word? I'm having that currently with "experience". When you think about it, it's mad we failed to qualify for the Champions League in 19/20 given we were able to call upon the invaluable experience and leadership qualities of Ryan Bennett. Maybe if we'd signed him on a permanent instead of Fofana we'd have made it over the line last season.

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kingfox

kingfox

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22 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

can we stop acting like Cags is some inexperience kid? He has plenty of experience himself we don't need to buy a CB to get more

He has experience, but has he proved capable of being a leading figure in defence? No he hasn’t.

 

The 19/20 season we were fortunate, that both Evans & Soyuncu played the majority of Premier League games together, they built up a terrific partnership, until Soyuncu decided to be a twat at Bournemouth.

 

Last season though, without Evans beside him, he looked a liability at times, that’s where the concern lies. Then at the Euros he didn’t look much better.

 

It doesn’t matter if he has experience or he’s 25 years old, the proof is that Cags looks a far better defender when someone like Evans is beside him. 

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STUHILL

STUHILL

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1 minute ago, kingfox said:

He has experience, but has he proved capable of being a leading figure in defence? No he hasn’t.

 

The 19/20 season we were fortunate, that both Evans & Soyuncu played the majority of Premier League games together, they built up a terrific partnership, until Soyuncu decided to be a twat at Bournemouth.

 

Last season though, without Evans beside him, he looked a liability at times, that’s where the concern lies. Then at the Euros he didn’t look much better.

 

It doesn’t matter if he has experience or he’s 25 years old, the proof is that Cags looks a far better defender when someone like Evans is beside him. 

Which experienced defenders are potentially available to come in this window do you think? I am curious about the type/quality of player you are thinking about to cover Evans. 

 

Have to remember a potential budget for a 4th choice CB and also what we are offering them and if they would be interested to settle for a role behind 3 other CBs etc 

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Dahnsouff

Dahnsouff

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, kingfox said:

He has experience, but has he proved capable of being a leading figure in defence? No he hasn’t.

 

The 19/20 season we were fortunate, that both Evans & Soyuncu played the majority of Premier League games together, they built up a terrific partnership, until Soyuncu decided to be a twat at Bournemouth.

 

Last season though, without Evans beside him, he looked a liability at times, that’s where the concern lies. Then at the Euros he didn’t look much better.

 

It doesn’t matter if he has experience or he’s 25 years old, the proof is that Cags looks a far better defender when someone like Evans is beside him. 

But you cannot seriously think that if Evans got injured and we had just signed Tarkowski, we would put Tarkowski in next to Soyuncu rather than Fofana??

Edited by Dahnsouff
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Babylon

Babylon

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1 hour ago, STUHILL said:

Think people are over egging the "Experience" element of a signing. 

 

Experience doesn't determine success. It is just a factor that may help. On the flip side, youth and hunger to prove themselves is also a factor that may help.

 

You also can't pigeon hole all young players as inexperienced and needing babysitting. Each player and signing is different. 

 

I would much prefer to just have a top performing CB, regardless of their experience or age. 

 

I get that there is a gamble to having another young CB as 4th choice, but Kabak is far from inexperienced at the top level. 

 

At the price being quoted, the fact he will be 4th choice and then also the difficulty of signing a top, experienced CB who would be OK as back-up only, then this would tick more boxes than not IMO. 

 

It's a difficult one, I'd rather have a good young player than a bad old one. But I'm going to presume when people talk about an experienced player, they mean a good one with something to offer. 

 

Experience is not only about the pitch, it's also off it. Setting the tone for the younger players etc. 

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