Muzzy_Larsson Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 1 hour ago, Attywolf said: I know people are worrying about leadership without Evans but I'll quote klopp he (Kabak) is a natural leader and has the potential to be a future captain What about the fact Klopp could have signed him for what £15m but instead decided to spend more than double that, on another player, in the same position from the same league. If he signs I obviously hope he works out and is a great success, but based on the above, what I've saw of him and the fact the thing most people seem appealed about with him is his price I've got serious reservations around whether he's good enough. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzzy_Larsson Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 3 minutes ago, PaulW said: Klopp needed/needs an immediate fix at the centre of his defence. Kabak is a longer term prospect,,to be bought on steadily, but capable of doing a job if called on, which is what we need, and what we're good at. I don't think Liverpool's situation is as grave as that tbh, maybe last season but they now have arguably the best centre back in the world available again and an England international to partner him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 13 minutes ago, Rigga said: Can’t rate him that highly…otherwise he would have signed him with everyone fit he’s got enough squad players. He was looking for a nailed on starter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NasPb Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 7 minutes ago, Kent-Fox said: I hope this is a joke Which part 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUHILL Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 1 minute ago, Muzzy_Larsson said: What about the fact Klopp could have signed him for what £15m but instead decided to spend more than double that, on another player, in the same position from the same league. If he signs I obviously hope he works out and is a great success, but based on the above, what I've saw of him and the fact the thing most people seem appealed about with him is his price I've got serious reservations around whether he's good enough. Good enough for 4th choice at 21 and big potential? Remember we had to wheel Wes out as 4th choice last season. Definite upgrade IMO, especially at the price and our potential limited budget and lack of "experienced" alternatives that would maybe offer more but be happy to be 4th choice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowlattsFox Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 I understand the argument for experience or leadership, but not sure Gary Cahill is the answer may as well have kept Morgan. You don't need to be old to be a leader, Dias is an exceptional leader for his age. Not everyone is a leader or an organiser, not sure it's really Soyuncu game but he does lead from example with his play on a good day. No point signing a great leader if he's only going to be 4th choice. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 12 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said: Your overreacting no one is saying signing Tarkowski or not is going to decide success or failure Our lack of experience (here we go again) at centre back was pointed to as a decisive factor in our failure to finish in the top four and Tarkowski was being put forward as a solution to that supposedly season-defining problem. It's not a huge leap from there, is it? 12 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said: Also whether it's Tarkowski, Kabak or whoever else they aren't going to be the Morgan replacement are they, that's just plain wrong Yes mate, I personally am aware of that but it's not me making that argument. I wonder what it was about the following quotes - all from the same poster who isn't me - that could possibly have led me to believe that replacing Morgan was being cited as a consideration when deciding which centre back to bring in? "Wes Morgan is gone, apart from Jonny Evans our other centre back options lack experience and leadership" "We need to replace Big Wes with either someone who has leadership qualities, are experienced or ideally both" "You lose two experienced players in Morgan & Fuchs, it makes zero sense to replace them with youngsters" "We’re signing Bertrand but that’s not enough, especially as we’ve lost Wes" "Remember when Robert Huth retired, who did we replace him with? Oh yeah, an EXPERIENCED centre back in Jonny Evans.We are now in the same boat after the retirement of Big Wes" "I’d have Kabak at Leicester, but at this moment in time he isn’t the right fit for what we need, especially after losing Wes" "You have to weigh up the bigger picture, especially as we’ve just lost a key experienced figure in Wes" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moore_94 Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said: What about the fact Klopp could have signed him for what £15m but instead decided to spend more than double that, on another player, in the same position from the same league. If he signs I obviously hope he works out and is a great success, but based on the above, what I've saw of him and the fact the thing most people seem appealed about with him is his price I've got serious reservations around whether he's good enough. Konate is much more likely to force himself into being first choice centre back than Kabak who was only ever brought in as a stop gap with the potential to be bought if needed, also Konate is a much higher rated youngster than Kabak Edited 13 July 2021 by moore_94 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzzy_Larsson Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 Just now, STUHILL said: Good enough for 4th choice at 21 and big potential? Remember we had to wheel Wes out as 4th choice last season. Definite upgrade IMO, especially at the price and our potential limited budget and lack of "experienced" alternatives that would maybe offer more but be happy to be 4th choice That's the thing though the whole notion of 4th choice is a misnomer for me, now the club is regularly competing in Europe, Evans will be another year older and Fofana is still young enough that he'll need a rest from time to time to ward off burn out. That means all four centre back's are likely to play 20+ games in the season, even more so if Rodgers decides to play three at the back on occassion. Like I said in a previous post, Wes wasn't fourth choice centre back last season, Amartey was, I think even Castagne played more minutes at centre back than Wes (don't quote me on that but you get my point). I might be missing something but based on what I've saw of him I don't see this big potential in him and I reckon yes there are better and more valuable options out there than him this summer. It's all down to opinions of course, let's see what happens if he signs, if he does I obviously hope he does well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfox Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 46 minutes ago, moore_94 said: Of course it would be good, but how many of those players are actually available? All well and good pulling names out of a hat like Cahill and Fonte but you have to look at whether they would actually be willing to join on the terms they would probably get to be a 4th/5th choice centre back with us compared to what other offers they have "don’t forget that’s exactly what Rodgers is after." - Targets always change, just because that is what he may have wanted in May doesn't mean it is what he wants in July - bare in mind he also didn't specify he required those attributes for every single player we sign, for all we know he could be happy with just Bertrand bringing that "older" experience to the team, Rodgers barely has much of a history when it comes to filling his squad up with older experienced players, he is happy to bring in younger players. I mentioned them because they are the two most realistic names that fit the category, especially as they are still free agents at this moment in time. Players like Mustafi and David Luiz are available, but nobody is going to mention them because they are bomb scares. If you have the phone numbers of Cahill & Fonte, I could ask them What’s changed in the period of two months? Absolutely nothing, we’ve played zero football and the same issues still need addressing. He outlined what we wanted, he wanted a mixture of players that fitted certain attributes, I already told you that on the thread @Collymore made. We’ve got in players who fit in with some of those attributes, in Daka & Soumare. Now we need to fix the problem of the lack of experience, Bertrand is great but he ain’t enough. I don’t expect Rodgers to fill the squad with experience, that’s not what I want, but experience is clearly needed in defence. @Muzzy_Larsson hit the nail on the head, yet you probably don’t agree with him either. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzzy_Larsson Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 3 minutes ago, Guest said: Our lack of experience (here we go again) at centre back was pointed to as a decisive factor in our failure to finish in the top four and Tarkowski was being put forward as a solution to that supposedly season-defining problem. It's not a huge leap from there, is it? Yes mate, I personally am aware of that but it's not me making that argument. I wonder what it was about the following quotes - all from the same poster who isn't me - that could possibly have led me to believe that replacing Morgan was being cited as a consideration when deciding which centre back to bring in? "Wes Morgan is gone, apart from Jonny Evans our other centre back options lack experience and leadership" "We need to replace Big Wes with either someone who has leadership qualities, are experienced or ideally both" "You lose two experienced players in Morgan & Fuchs, it makes zero sense to replace them with youngsters" "We’re signing Bertrand but that’s not enough, especially as we’ve lost Wes" "Remember when Robert Huth retired, who did we replace him with? Oh yeah, an EXPERIENCED centre back in Jonny Evans.We are now in the same boat after the retirement of Big Wes" "I’d have Kabak at Leicester, but at this moment in time he isn’t the right fit for what we need, especially after losing Wes" "You have to weigh up the bigger picture, especially as we’ve just lost a key experienced figure in Wes" Yes it is a huge leap, if you firmly believe people think that signing Tarkowski is going to be the difference between success and failure overall then sorry but I can't help you there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moore_94 Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, kingfox said: I mentioned them because they are the two most realistic names that fit the category, especially as they are still free agents at this moment in time. Players like Mustafi and David Luiz are available, but nobody is going to mention them because they are bomb scares. If you have the phone numbers of Cahill & Fonte, I could ask them What’s changed in the period of two months? Absolutely nothing, we’ve played zero football and the same issues still need addressing. He outlined what we wanted, he wanted a mixture of players that fitted certain attributes, I already told you that on the thread @Collymore made. We’ve got in players who fit in with some of those attributes, in Daka & Soumare. Now we need to fix the problem of the lack of experience, Bertrand is great but he ain’t enough. I don’t expect Rodgers to fill the squad with experience, that’s not what I want, but experience is clearly needed in defence. @Muzzy_Larsson hit the nail on the head, yet you probably don’t agree with him either. You know clubs can change their mind on what kind of players they want right? Or do you think that is not possible? A lot can happen in the world of football in the space of 2 months. Look at how opposite end of the scale our centre back targets were last summer - the premier league experience in his prime Tarkowski, or the brand new less than 20 senior appearances Fofana Maybe they have been through all their targets they wanted to fit that profile and have found for whatever reason they aren't realistic to sign this summer, and so now have turned to a long term target youngster who is available for a cheap price. Even all these stop gaps we may be looking at could be asking for stupid wages, signing on fees, and long contracts we don't want to offer so we aren't stuck with more crap we struggle to get rid of when an old player whose physical abilities could go off a cliff at the slightest injury are stuck here for 2 years or more. Plenty of us can see that we need experience, but you then have to consider whether it is actually possible in the current climate when clubs are still having to be careful with what they spend. Edited 13 July 2021 by moore_94 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUHILL Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 Hopefully we get linked with 1 or 2 experienced CBs and we can compare a little better. At the moment, we are comparing Kabak to people's ideals. Be good to get some real context 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroughtonFox Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 I’m sure Rodgers will have another look at Benkovic again, he’s back training anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 52 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said: You can have experience and be crap, that's a thing. I thought it was fairly obvious that those who suggested they'd favour a more experienced option to Kabak also implied that said option would also be a good player. On this by the way - the point I and others have been making is that there aren't likely to be many quality, experienced centre backs who are willing to come here and be a backup option. I agree completely with you saying that the term "4th choice" is a bit misleading given we'll (hopefully) be playing loads of games and our rotation players still ought to be getting plenty of minutes, but anyone who comes in is still probably going to be behind three very good players in the pecking order and I think that's going to be a tough sell for someone in the prime of their career who could likely command a starting place elsewhere. Apologies for the snark and hyperbole but there's only so many times you can read "Rodgers said he wants experience" before the part of your brain that deals with calm and reason folds in on itself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUHILL Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 6 minutes ago, BroughtonFox said: I’m sure Rodgers will have another look at Benkovic again, he’s back training anyway. still shocked how much of a cliff he dropped off! He looked better than Soyuncu when arrived! Very weird 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfox Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 30 minutes ago, moore_94 said: You know clubs can change their mind on what kind of players they want right? Or do you think that is not possible? A lot can happen in the world of football in the space of 2 months. Look at how opposite end of the scale our centre back targets were last summer - the premier league experience in his prime Tarkowski, or the brand new less than 20 senior appearances Fofana Maybe they have been through all their targets they wanted to fit that profile and have found for whatever reason they aren't realistic to sign this summer, and so now have turned to a long term target youngster who is available for a cheap price. Even all these stop gaps we may be looking at could be asking for stupid wages, signing on fees, and long contracts we don't want to offer so we aren't stuck with more crap we struggle to get rid of when an old player whose physical abilities could go off a cliff at the slightest injury are stuck here for 2 years or more. Plenty of us can see that we need experience, but you then have to consider whether it is actually possible in the current climate when clubs are still having to be careful with what they spend. As @Muzzy_Larsson said. “Context is key here, no one is saying always go for the experienced option they are merely saying given the current options at centre back, who in the main lack experience beyond Evans and who have looked a little suspect without Evans' presence, that going for an older head may be a better option at this point in time, if possible of course.” You have to take last season into consideration, the amount of problems we had, which led to us having to play an unorganised and inexperienced back line cost us valuable points. When Evans was missing, Soyuncu turned into a liability at times, Castagne had to play RCB, plus we even had to call on the likes of Amartey. None of those situations were ideal, many on here vented their frustration. But suddenly some fans on here now think, that an inexperienced back line if Evans gets injured, will be ok and it will do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahnsouff Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 2 minutes ago, kingfox said: As @Muzzy_Larsson said. “Context is key here, no one is saying always go for the experienced option they are merely saying given the current options at centre back, who in the main lack experience beyond Evans and who have looked a little suspect without Evans' presence, that going for an older head may be a better option at this point in time, if possible of course.” You have to take last season into consideration, the amount of problems we had, which led to us having to play an unorganised and inexperienced back line cost us valuable points. When Evans was missing, Soyuncu turned into a liability at times, Castagne had to play RCB, plus we even had to call on the likes of Amartey. None of those situations were ideal, many on here vented their frustration. But suddenly some fans on here now think, that an inexperienced back line if Evans gets injured, will be ok and it will do. Too many assumptions on your part I am afraid. I’m out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingsX Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 You can enter this thread at any recent page, and it's the same posters reiterating the same points. Decent points (on either side of the argument), but folks, it's been said. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGLCFC Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 (edited) I think it can go beyond experience. Sometimes it's the ability to talk, lead and organise a defence that is helpful. Whilst Evans is vastly experienced, he's also a good talker and organiser. Some people are natural at this, such as Tielemans. So for me I'm hoping for someone who can talk and organise a defence but I know these qualities can go cap in hand with experience. Edited 13 July 2021 by MGLCFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heymister2015 Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 The best possible 4th choice cb we could possibly hope for. I’m not sure there’s any debate possible with the price tag. Great signing of it happens 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfox Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said: Too many assumptions on your part I am afraid. I’m out. A lot of ifs, buts and maybes from every post since about page 15 mate I’m not the only one, but I’ll save you the stress of reading more, I’m off to do some weeding 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrispinLA in Texas Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 (edited) I didn't know much about him, only that he was a loanee at Liverpool. Looking at their main forum the posters generally thought he was pretty good and a shame they won't go for him permanently and that he will only get better as he gets older so it's a positive from me Edited 13 July 2021 by CrispinLA in Texas 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahnsouff Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 Just now, kingfox said: A lot of ifs, buts and maybes from every post since about page 15 mate I’m not the only one, but I’ll save you the stress of reading more, I’m off to do some weeding Hey, it’s all good, my head is just spinning from the cyclic nature of this thread. Need a sit down. And now I feel bad cos I need to do some weeding too…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbylcfc Posted 13 July 2021 Share Posted 13 July 2021 Just now, CrispinLA in Texas said: I didn't know much about him, only that he was a loaner at Liverpool. Looking at their main forum the posters generally thought he was pretty good and a shame they won't go for him permanently and that he will only get better as he gets older so it's a positive from me I’m sure the rumoured price we are getting for him is cheaper than the buy clause for his Liverpool loan as well for under 15 million I think it’s a good bit of business 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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