Formula 1 2021

[Strokes]

3 hours ago, Walkers said:

Do they? They pitted Perez from the points to nab the FL point away from Hamilton at Silverstone. Pretty certain Red Bull are primarily hell bent on Verstappen becoming champion before anything else 

Yeah but Silverstone was in the middle of the season. The championship is on a knife edge now. It’s not remotely the same to sacrifice.

[Jimmy]

2 hours ago, Asha said:

Have you not seen the Aston Martin and Williams cars jumping out the way every time a Mercedes was coming through the field?

 

Toto has his fingers deep in so many pies of other teams and drivers, so by your logic should he be forced out of the sport or what? 

neither of those 2 teams are quick enough to keep either a Merc or Red Bull behind them and neither are owned by the other team, Alpha Touri very much is and has done so on many occasions, they are supposed to be separate teams, all pretence of that was gone last Sunday.

 

As I said the FIA have 2 options, make Red Bull sell AT, or from this coming race allow Ferrari, Mercedes and anyone else that wants to to run a second team with immediate effect

Edited 23 November 2021 by Jimmy

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, jammie82uk said:

Toto wolf brought 5% shares in Aston Martin last year and till the recent sale of Williams he owed 5% of shares in them as well 

he does not Mercedes and 5% is not a controlling interest, he could leave them at the end of the season for all we know, frankly given their tactical **** ups this year they probably need someone, years of dominance made them sloppy first time they had outside pressure they made lots of mistakes

Edited 23 November 2021 by Jimmy

[snoopy87]

If you didn't expect Gasly to give Max a free pass then you've not been paying attention.

 

Gasly's sole ambition is to get himself back in that Red Bull seat, Geri Horner knows that and will use it to whatever end he can. Gasly isn't going to jeopardise any chance he may have to get it.

 

On the other point of constructors, absolutely Horner would sacrifice it to give Max the title, just look at the state of the team, the cars built around him for that sole reason. Its why any second driver they have either fails or gets fed up and moves.

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

neither of those 2 teams are quick enough to keep either a Merc or Red Bull behind them and neither are owned by the other team, Alpha Touri very much is and has done so on many occasions, they are supposed to be separate teams, all pretence of that was gone last Sunday.

 

As I said the FIA have 2 options, make Red Bull sell AT, or from this coming race allow Ferrari, Mercedes and anyone else that wants to to run a second team with immediate effect

You do realise all of those teams are well within in their rights to run a second team but don't because of cost? I mean Alfa has effectively been the ferrari B team for the last couple of years and Merc literally gave Aston their car last year.You seem really dense, I take it you're from the netflix crowd 

[Asha]

Do any fans really care about the constructors championship?

 

Ferrari won it 99 but who gives a shit cause Hakkinen was the champion. 

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

neither of those 2 teams are quick enough to keep either a Merc or Red Bull behind them and neither are owned by the other team, Alpha Touri very much is and has done so on many occasions, they are supposed to be separate teams, all pretence of that was gone last Sunday.

Hahaha listen to yourself. Toto Wolff has a stake in Aston Martin. Last year’s racing point was literally the previous year’s Mercedes. 

 

Why do you have sand in your vagina anyway? Hamilton will cruise it from here with the rocket engine. Didn’t matter whether Max got past Gasly or not.

Edited 24 November 2021 by Asha

[JR99]

Would be gutting if Spa comes to decide the championship, I spent hundreds of pounds for that wet wet weekend and all they did was roll round for 2 laps behind a safety car. Any gap less than 5 points in Verstappen's favour will be a mighty shame, and more importantly, a pretty questionable way of deciding a great championship fight 

[jammie82uk]

12 hours ago, Jimmy said:

he does not Mercedes and 5% is not a controlling interest, he could leave them at the end of the season for all we know, frankly given their tactical **** ups this year they probably need someone, years of dominance made them sloppy first time they had outside pressure they made lots of mistakes

Not sure what you mean with “he does not Mercedes” as for leaving yes he could but he still has 2 years left on his contract after this season but could be in his own interest to stay as he owns 30% of the Team, i know 5% is not a controlling stake i was just pointing I agreed with @Ashathat Toto has involvement with other teams and drivers either directly with himself or within the Mercedes framework, he was Bottas’s manager until Bottas joined Mercedes, he’s Ocon’s manager, although it’s be denied he’s rumoured to be Lando Norris’s manager, 

as pointed out to you as well other teams can run a second team but choose not to, also there is no reason why we need to lose teams to be able to have another like Audi or Porsche if they was serious about being in F1 they could apply for a license 

[The Horse's Mouth]

7 hours ago, JR99 said:

Would be gutting if Spa comes to decide the championship, I spent hundreds of pounds for that wet wet weekend and all they did was roll round for 2 laps behind a safety car. Any gap less than 5 points in Verstappen's favour will be a mighty shame, and more importantly, a pretty questionable way of deciding a great championship fight 

Abu Dhabi is the last race mate

[Footballwipe]

The childish tribalism is something to behold on here over the last few pages, but trying to excuse Mercedes for having teams move over for them after castigating Red Bull and Tauri for doing the same is sensational.

 

Other highlights over the last few days include X driver crashing into Y driver to help their team mate win the title.

 

Tbh I just want a dramatic couple of final races. For what has been a really good season to start to climax with Qatar and two others, if Saudi and Abu Dhabi are as snore inducing as Qatar then it'll be a bit crap.

[Facecloth]

7 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Abu Dhabi is the last race mate

Did he say it wasn't?

[The Horse's Mouth]

8 minutes ago, Footballwipe said:

The childish tribalism is something to behold on here over the last few pages, but trying to excuse Mercedes for having teams move over for them after castigating Red Bull and Tauri for doing the same is sensational.

 

Other highlights over the last few days include X driver crashing into Y driver to help their team mate win the title.

 

Tbh I just want a dramatic couple of final races. For what has been a really good season to start to climax with Qatar and two others, if Saudi and Abu Dhabi are as snore inducing as Qatar then it'll be a bit crap.

Think that'll be the problem it'll be an anti climatic finish, which is ashame as the season deserves much better. With location as well you can't even hope for weather to throw a spanner into the mix 

[Stinkenzo]

Can anybody name an example of a Williams or Aston Martin waving a Mercedes through this season? Don't recall Vettel doing Merc any favours in Monaco by overcutting Hamilton? 

 

From what I remember Gasly more or less moved out of the way for Verstappen at Russia and then was good to hold up Bottas. Tsunoda I think admitted he destroyed his tyres and therefore his race at Turkey trying to keep Hamilton behind at the start. Absolutely no doubt that Red Bull, Max in particular, only has 16 other cars to race against as opposed to everybody else's 18. The midfield for years have barely bothered to fight the faster cars coming through the back, Tsunoda was quite racey against Hamilton at Brazil too. Is that just inexperience of picking your fights or Turkey part 2?

 

I don't think Gasly going off track was suspicious really given what happened to him the day before, slightly different but why would he do it again? He would have put up absolutely no fight against Verstappen had he stayed on track anyway. 

[JR99]

2 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Abu Dhabi is the last race mate

And we're racing at Jeddah before that. Squares also have 4 sides if you fancy some other correct, but completely irrelevant facts 😂 

[The Horse's Mouth]

Weren't Max and Lewis 2 seconds a lap faster than the whole field anyway, it's irrelevant really Gasly would've been wrecking his own race trying to keep Max back 

[Sampson]

11 hours ago, JR99 said:

Would be gutting if Spa comes to decide the championship, I spent hundreds of pounds for that wet wet weekend and all they did was roll round for 2 laps behind a safety car. Any gap less than 5 points in Verstappen's favour will be a mighty shame, and more importantly, a pretty questionable way of deciding a great championship fight 

I'm by no means a Verstappen fan, but this is definitely a weird take that Spa decided the Championship when Verstappen's tyre blew up from nowhere due to bad intel from Pirelli in Azerbaijan while he was well clear and lost him 25 pts and he was completely wiped out by Bottas at Hungary and had to limp with a half-broken car to 9th. 

Had neither of those incidents happened, Verstappen would have been close to 70 points ahead at the end of Hungary and the WC would have been mathematically over by now. 

That's definitely a lot of Hamilton bias in that take. Verstappen overall has lost a lot more points for reasons out of either of their control over the season.

[snoopy87]

24 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Weren't Max and Lewis 2 seconds a lap faster than the whole field anyway, it's irrelevant really Gasly would've been wrecking his own race trying to keep Max back 

Yep. There's this to consider as well.

 

The further down the field you go, the more important the constructors standings become. I think it was this season at the Red Bull ring, Norris was leading Hamilton and Norris was on the radio asking if they were racing Mercedes that weekend. The answer came back at that point yes, else he would have let him straight through. I think 20 laps later the strategy changed and they gave up with the Mercs

[JR99]

17 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I'm by no means a Verstappen fan, but this is definitely a weird take that Spa decided the Championship when Verstappen's tyre blew up from nowhere due to bad intel from Pirelli in Azerbaijan while he was well clear and lost him 25 pts and he was completely wiped out by Bottas at Hungary and had to limp with a half-broken car to 9th. 

Had neither of those incidents happened, Verstappen would have been close to 70 points ahead at the end of Hungary and the WC would have been mathematically over by now. 

That's definitely a lot of Hamilton bias in that take. Verstappen overall has lost a lot more points for reasons out of either of their control over the season.

For sure Max deserves the title lead right now, for 3/4 of the season so far he's been by far the best driver. But essentially they're both sporting incidents, where events on the track dictated the direction of the race weekend. You also forget Hamilton missed out on a probably minimum of 18 points because of the magic brake button, again a sporting incident. Likewise Hamilton and Max at Silverstone and Monza, both incidents where one driver was primarily at fault resulting in large point losses. 

My issue with Spa is it wasn't a race. It wasn't a sporting issue with controversy surrounding it. It was entirely political - i don't believe politically driven for one driver ahead of another either - but politically driven to stage a complete non event. As I said that weekend cost me hundreds of pounds, I haven't seen a penny back, despite not getting the main thing I payed for. 

To your overall point, I don't believe Spa decided the championship, there's been many weekends before and after to accumulate points. But, if there is a difference of fewer than 5 points, the deciding factor in who is champion this year can be directly related to the points that never should've been gained in Belgium. I'd hope you'd agree, as an F1 fan, not a follower of an individual driver, that the circus we saw at Spa wasn't sporting or right, and it does have the potential to heavily impact on the final result of an otherwise good season

Edited 24 November 2021 by JR99

[SouthStandUpperTier]

19 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I'm by no means a Verstappen fan, but this is definitely a weird take that Spa decided the Championship when Verstappen's tyre blew up from nowhere due to bad intel from Pirelli in Azerbaijan while he was well clear and lost him 25 pts and he was completely wiped out by Bottas at Hungary and had to limp with a half-broken car to 9th. 

Had neither of those incidents happened, Verstappen would have been close to 70 points ahead at the end of Hungary and the WC would have been mathematically over by now. 

That's definitely a lot of Hamilton bias in that take. Verstappen overall has lost a lot more points for reasons out of either of their control over the season.

Blown tyres, engine failures and getting taken out through no fault of your own, while unlucky, are all part of racing. What happened at Spa had absolutely nothing to do with racing.

[Sampson]

21 minutes ago, JR99 said:

For sure Max deserves the title lead right now, for 3/4 of the season so far he's been by far the best driver. But essentially they're both sporting incidents, where events on the track dictated the direction of the race weekend. You also forget Hamilton missed out on a probably minimum of 18 points because of the magic brake button, again a sporting incident. Likewise Hamilton and Max at Silverstone and Monza, both incidents where one driver was primarily at fault resulting in large point losses. 

My issue with Spa is it wasn't a race. It wasn't a sporting issue with controversy surrounding it. It was entirely political - i don't believe politically driven for one driver ahead of another either - but politically driven to stage a complete non event. As I said that weekend cost me hundreds of pounds, I haven't seen a penny back, despite not getting the main thing I payed for. 

To your overall point, I don't believe Spa decided the championship, there's been many weekends before and after to accumulate points. But, if there is a difference of fewer than 5 points, the deciding factor in who is champion this year can be directly related to the points that never should've been gained in Belgium. I'd hope you'd agree, as an F1 fan, not a follower of an individual driver, that the circus we saw at Spa wasn't sporting or right, and it does have the potential to heavily impact on the final result of an otherwise good season

I didn't; forget about the magic break button because Hamilton at Azerbaijan was driver error - not car error. Hamilton forgot to press it.

I didn't agree with Spa, but I also don't think it's fair to say it heavily impacted the season more than a third-party tyre manufacture error screwing up - there's a clear implication in saying it's been "decided" by Spa that Hamilton has been hard done by in the Championship, which I don't think is a accurate reflection of how the Championship has gone at all. These are as much incidents outside the driver's control as any. And Max should really have been out of sight by then all things being equal anyway.

I agree with you about Monza and Silvertsone, but I think you can say that Hamilton lost 7 points for reasons outside his control at Monza and didn't lose anything at Silverstone, but I don't think that +5pts at Spa really compares as being implied as being hard done by to the 40pts Verstappen lost at Hungary and Azerbaijan.

 

15 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Blown tyres, engine failures and getting taken out through no fault of your own, while unlucky, are all part of racing. What happened at Spa had absolutely nothing to do with racing.

Of course it did - it was essentially decided you got half points based on your qualifying performance because of the weather. Qualifying and bad weather conditions are as much a part of racing as a tyre manufacturer, which has nothing to do with any team or car, screwing up. Not saying you have to agree with those rules. But the point is trying to spin it that Spa "decided" the whole Championship to make out like Hamilton has been hard done by is obviously a bit daft when Verstappen has had more bad luck over the course of the season.

Edited 24 November 2021 by Sampson

[JR99]

1 minute ago, Sampson said:

I didn't; forget about the magic break button because Hamilton at Azerbaijan was driver error - not car error. Hamilton forgot to press it.

 

Of course it did - it was essentially decided you got half points based on your qualifying performance because of the weather. Qualifying and bad weather conditions are as much a part of racing as a tyre manufacturer, which has nothing to do with any team or car, screwing up. Not saying you have to agree with those rules. But the point is trying to spin it that Spa "decided" the whole Championship to make out like Hamilton has been hard done by is obviously a bit daft when Verstappen has had more bad luck over the course of the season.

Bad luck and politics are different. If the world Cup gets cancelled, do we give the Jules Rimet to the team who got the most points in qualifying? Tokyo Olympics got delayed due to covid, should we just base the gold medal winner on who performed the best in Olympic trials, or diamond league events that got them to the Olympics in the first place? They'd be purely political decisions, and widely ridiculed too. Qualifying doesn't earn you points, it earns you the right to be at the front of the grid for the race. If, by your logic, the hot lap in qualifying constitutes a fair event, I don't see why we don't just make the sport a time trial in which fastest lap earns you full points.

 

Again, I reiterate my point, Spa didn't decide the championship, the whole season does. However, in the event there is a fewer than 5 point swing, the 5 point difference from Spa, that shouldn't have existed, would be a major determining factor. If the fair and sporting thing to do, particularly for someone like me who saved money to go and watch the event, was decided, and the race was null and void or rerun, the result had every potential to be different, or remain exactly the same. But at least then it would be as the sport is designed, and how the championship is decided every year, who accumulated the most points in racing

[Sampson]

21 minutes ago, JR99 said:

Bad luck and politics are different. If the world Cup gets cancelled, do we give the Jules Rimet to the team who got the most points in qualifying? Tokyo Olympics got delayed due to covid, should we just base the gold medal winner on who performed the best in Olympic trials, or diamond league events that got them to the Olympics in the first place? They'd be purely political decisions, and widely ridiculed too. Qualifying doesn't earn you points, it earns you the right to be at the front of the grid for the race. If, by your logic, the hot lap in qualifying constitutes a fair event, I don't see why we don't just make the sport a time trial in which fastest lap earns you full points.

 

Again, I reiterate my point, Spa didn't decide the championship, the whole season does. However, in the event there is a fewer than 5 point swing, the 5 point difference from Spa, that shouldn't have existed, would be a major determining factor. If the fair and sporting thing to do, particularly for someone like me who saved money to go and watch the event, was decided, and the race was null and void or rerun, the result had every potential to be different, or remain exactly the same. But at least then it would be as the sport is designed, and how the championship is decided every year, who accumulated the most points in racing

But that's like saying it's "politics" that points are given out for pole position or for those extra 3pts Hamilton has from fastest laps or that there's only a 7pt difference give out between 1st and 2nd and not a 30pt difference. That's self-evident.

Yes, and I was arguing against someone who said it would "decide" the championship and it's clearly said in a way to say Hamilton has been hard done by, which is obviously just a bit daft. Especially when Verstappen looked much quicker at Spa anyway and most likely would have earnt more points if the race had gone ahead.

What are you talking about "by my logic" "we should give the team with the fastest lap in time trails the full points"? We did used to give out points for qualifying in F1 and no one said then "that isn't racing", many different racing sports give out points or have given out points at different points in time for qualifying position as well as final race position - some give out points for other things like most laps lead in race as well or for certain sprints or certain stages within a particular race. Some racing sports don't give points on individual races and instead give points give you points based on your total aggregate time over all races - these are all still racing sports, they just decide how to distribute their points differently as to which to favour.

Of course qualifying is racing. Racing within a certain lap is racing too. You're still racing against other cars to see who is quickest.

You're just referring to a rule you disagree with with regards to F1 in 2021. The rule you disagree with here is that points should be given for at least 2 laps racing. It's perfectly feasible for an entire race to be done behind a safety car if we kept getting debris or crashes as soon as one yellow flag ends before anyone can start to overtake again. I doubt anyone would complain if such a thing happened.

I don't think they should have gone out for Spa, but it was within the rules to do so and it was the decision of the officials at the time, just like it was their decision to introduce points for fastest laps or points for sprint races or 25pts for a win and 18pts for 2nd or to award Perilli the sole tyre contract and remove tyre competition. I don't think it has played anymore a determining factor than how the points are awarded for fastest lap or 1st or 2nd or those points Verstappen gained on Hamilton for those silly sprint races which I also don't think should've been happening.

I feel sorry for anyone who had to go and pay their money to Spa, but really none of that has anything to do with anything you are discussing here.

I think it's very unlikely that Verstappen will win the Championship by less than 5pts anyway, as I expect them both to be P1 and P2 in both races.

Edited 24 November 2021 by Sampson

[LiberalFox]

16 hours ago, Asha said:

Do any fans really care about the constructors championship?

 

Ferrari won it 99 but who gives a shit cause Hakkinen was the champion. 

Hahaha listen to yourself. Toto Wolff has a stake in Aston Martin. Last year’s racing point was literally the previous year’s Mercedes. 

 

Why do you have sand in your vagina anyway? Hamilton will cruise it from here with the rocket engine. Didn’t matter whether Max got past Gasly or not.

I'd like Hamilton to win the title and Red Bull to win the constructors just so I can claim Hamilton won in an inferior car. 

[Stinkenzo]

You can go back through every championship and say "if this hadn't happened the result would have been different". Can you go back through any championship (in recent years atleast) and say "if he wasn't awarded points for 2 laps behind the safety car" the results would be different? It's not the same at all and would be farcical if it was won that way, even if it was Hamilton that benefitted from it.

[The Horse's Mouth]

You can guarantee if Hamilton gained from it, it wouldn't be in this thread tbh, really was a strange comment. Like Sampson pointed out the likelihood of it going to 5 points is very unlikely anyway and he's pretty much got it in the bag now