Not The Politics Thread.

[Saxondale]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'm sorry are you saying the handful of commenters who've remarked on the relationship between capitalism and climate change are arguing for full blown communism?  

No, I’m not saying that. I was simply going off on a bit of a tangent.

 

EDIT: But having said that, the worst polluter in the world is communist-ruled China.

Edited 27 November 2021 by Saxondale
.

[Sly]

Whilst I’m quite liberal, I’ve tended to vote Conservative for most of my life. 
 

I wouldn’t vote for Boris again, as to be Frank, I find him a bit of a nightmare.

 

He’s like a political version of John Fury. 
 

I can laugh at him, could have a beer etc, however would I don’t want him running the country.

[samlcfc]

1 hour ago, Saxondale said:

No, I’m not saying that. I was simply going off on a bit of a tangent.

 

EDIT: But having said that, the worst polluter in the world is communist-ruled China.

To be fair, on the face of it, it does seem like the whole worst polluter argument is representative of the awful surface level discussions that mask the seriousness of the situation. Without knowing too much about it, it's pretty easy to call countries out for huge c02 contributions when most outsource all of their own manufacturing industries.

[Heathrow fox]

6 hours ago, samlcfc said:

To be fair, on the face of it, it does seem like the whole worst polluter argument is representative of the awful surface level discussions that mask the seriousness of the situation. Without knowing too much about it, it's pretty easy to call countries out for huge c02 contributions when most outsource all of their own manufacturing industries.

Correct.A good % of China’s carbon footprint is making crap that the west doesn’t need.Plus getting stuff out the ground that we all need to function.

[Heathrow fox]

9 hours ago, Vacamion said:

 

I follow the reddit antiwork forum, where there was a lot of "screw black Friday" / "make Amazon pay" stuff.

 

I totally get it that generally, bosses are horrible, executive pay is obscene and kids nowadays can't live on their wages, and some of the stuff posted from the USA is awful - no rights, no healthcare, shit pay, etc.

 

However, I do wonder how much of the recent upsurge in anticapitalism stuff is being stirred up by bots in Macedonia or wherever.

Maybe the bots make a good point wherever they’re based.

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, samlcfc said:

To be fair, on the face of it, it does seem like the whole worst polluter argument is representative of the awful surface level discussions that mask the seriousness of the situation. Without knowing too much about it, it's pretty easy to call countries out for huge c02 contributions when most outsource all of their own manufacturing industries.

 

4 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Correct.A good % of China’s carbon footprint is making crap that the west doesn’t need.Plus getting stuff out the ground that we all need to function.

Yep, this is right. If it wasn't China making this stuff, it would be somewhere else instead, as throughout history.

 

The issue here is changing the way we generate energy and manufacture things. And, perhaps, dialling down on the consumerism just a little bit.

[Heathrow fox]

16 hours ago, Saxondale said:

I tend to find the whole capitalism-is-bad / socialism-is-bad debates pretty stupid. It’s is a simple matter of fact that no successful modern regime has existed without incorporating elements of both socialism AND capitalism. These are not competing systems.

 

People talk as it if’s one model or another. Pure capitalism would be dreadful, and pure socialism has been tried many times and is demonstrably dreadful.
 

It’s as futile as people arguing you should live on just food or just water; obviously you need both.
 

 

I don’t think anyone can claim that full on Socialism has ever been tried.properly.It would need to be the dominant world model for us to see it given a real chance to fail.

[jgtuk]

4 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

I don’t think anyone can claim that full on Socialism has ever been tried.properly.It would need to be the dominant world model for us to see it given a real chance to fail.

Not without massive sanctions or a US led military coup...

[Buce]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/28/opposition-parties-can-oust-tories-if-they-cooperate-on-seats

Opposition parties ‘can oust Tories’ if they cooperate on seats

New analysis shows that a ‘progressive alliance’ can overturn the Tory majority by fielding unity candidates in 154 English seats

 

Duncan Smith and Rees-Smug - and possibly Bozo - would be among the casualties.

 

What's not to like?

 

Edited 28 November 2021 by Buce

[jgtuk]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/28/opposition-parties-can-oust-tories-if-they-cooperate-on-seats

Opposition parties ‘can oust Tories’ if they cooperate on seats

New analysis shows that a ‘progressive alliance’ can overturn the Tory majority by fielding unity candidates in 154 English seats

 

Duncan-Smith and Rees-Smug - and possibly Bozo - would be among the casualties.

 

What's not to like?

 

The opposition sadly.

IMO, the Tories have replaced Ukip/BNP with their swing to the right and as a consequence, the other parties have been pulled across to the right with them. Labour = old Tory.

We need wholesale change - a revolution maybe

 

 

Edited 28 November 2021 by jgtuk

[samlcfc]

10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

Yep, this is right. If it wasn't China making this stuff, it would be somewhere else instead, as throughout history.

 

The issue here is changing the way we generate energy and manufacture things. And, perhaps, dialling down on the consumerism just a little bit.

The sway behind the largest polluter discussion sort of gives an idea as to why those further things you mention will be difficult to change. It seems to me as though the ideals behind free markets relies on everything, including information being free. Even in the information age, it would appear that those who have consolidated power over wealth and resources have consolidated a significant amount of power over information.

 

The discussion about differing ways to run the world is often irksome, as it can boil down to the fact that capitalism in it's current form is chugging along without too much trouble. At this point in time however, it feels like its becoming increasingly obvious that one of its most efficient features is the ability to steamroll mass criticism whilst kicking a rather large can down the road. People seem comfortable enough in being told they can have whatever they want, whenever they want it, with absolutely no barriers to growth in that regard other than accumulation of wealth.

 

I know we should probably treat people as critical thinkers with the ability to consider all information, but does that sort of freedom of information exist with the power dynamics of the world as it is right now? Also, does the average person have the time to consider such complex scenarios or do a whole lot about it?

 

It's frustrating, because although we have some big issues to solve, the past shows that with enough people pulling in the right direction, humans are capable of some pretty big wins in pretty efficient timescales.

Edited 28 November 2021 by samlcfc

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/28/opposition-parties-can-oust-tories-if-they-cooperate-on-seats

Opposition parties ‘can oust Tories’ if they cooperate on seats

New analysis shows that a ‘progressive alliance’ can overturn the Tory majority by fielding unity candidates in 154 English seats

 

Duncan Smith and Rees-Smug - and possibly Bozo - would be among the casualties.

 

What's not to like?

 

 

I'd love to see it happen, but don't imagine it will. Partly for the reasons stated in the article - parties concerned they'll be perceived as no longer national parties etc. There are also some Lab, LD, Green or whatever voters who would never switch their votes to another party. 

 

Based on the figures quoted there, parties other than Labour also lack a motive to stand down in lots of seats.....if the outcome is just 16 LD MPs, 1 Green MP and perhaps a Lab-SNP minority govt or similar. That's an outcome that could occur anyway without any use of unity candidates.

 

I suppose that if Labour were prepared to stand down in few more seats, offering the LDs & Greens a chance to increase their numbers, that might provide a motive.....but I can't see Labour agreeing to that, particularly not local parties in seats where they might have an outside chance of winning.

 

However, the big deal maker might be: an open commitment to electoral reform. If Labour committed to that, it would certainly provide the other parties with a motive to join such a unity alliance.

 

Otherwise, a diluted version of this will happen to some extent - as it has done in recent elections. Even if they stand candidates in every seat, all parties will concentrate their electoral resources in seats that they stand a chance of winning.....and there are very few seats where more than one of Labour, LDs and Greens stand a chance of winning: e.g. I assume Brighton & Hove Labour Party devote most of their resources to the Kemptown and Hove seats, while the Greens send almost all their activists to the Pavillion seat.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, samlcfc said:

The sway behind the largest polluter discussion sort of gives an idea as to why those further things you mention will be difficult to change. It seems to me as though the ideals behind free markets relies on everything, including information being free. Even in the information age, it would appear that those who have consolidated power over wealth and resources have consolidated a significant amount of power over information.

 

The discussion about differing ways to run the world is often irksome, as it often boils down to the fact that capitalism in it's current form is chugging along without too much trouble. At this point in time however, it feels like its becoming increasingly obvious that one of its most efficient features is the ability to steamroll mass criticism whilst kicking a rather large can down the road. People seem comfortable enough in being told they can have whatever they want, whenever they want it, with absolutely no barriers to growth in that regard other than accumulation of wealth.

 

I know we should probably treat people as critical thinkers with the ability to consider all information, but does that sort of freedom of information exist with the power dynamics of the world as it is right now? Also, does the average person have the time to consider such complex scenarios or do a whole lot about it?

 

It's frustrating, because although we have some big issues to solve, the past shows that with enough people pulling in the right direction, humans are capable of some pretty big wins in pretty efficient timescales.

Good post and difficult questions.

 

The simplest answer to those two questions is that it's uncertain as it's so complex and I honestly don't know (in that order), but what I am reasonably sure of is that (as you intimate in your last paragraph) we do have some big issues to solve, and not using the information and will we have to solve them as a species will not be pretty.

[Fightforever]

17 hours ago, Vacamion said:

 

I follow the reddit antiwork forum, where there was a lot of "screw black Friday" / "make Amazon pay" stuff.

 

I totally get it that generally, bosses are horrible, executive pay is obscene and kids nowadays can't live on their wages, and some of the stuff posted from the USA is awful - no rights, no healthcare, shit pay, etc.

 

However, I do wonder how much of the recent upsurge in anticapitalism stuff is being stirred up by bots in Macedonia or wherever.

Amazon is genuinely terrible heard a story from a mate that another worker threatened to beat him up outside while hurling Racist and Islamaphobic abuse at him he went to the manager about it and the manager just told him it weren't his problem. And he was a full time employee. Temp staff get shat on like you wouldn't believe. Especially night shift workers. Go into any warehouse and you will find a couple ex Amazon employees. Everyone has their own horror stories about that company. 

Edited 28 November 2021 by Fightforever

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

9 hours ago, Buce said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/28/opposition-parties-can-oust-tories-if-they-cooperate-on-seats

Opposition parties ‘can oust Tories’ if they cooperate on seats

New analysis shows that a ‘progressive alliance’ can overturn the Tory majority by fielding unity candidates in 154 English seats

 

Duncan Smith and Rees-Smug - and possibly Bozo - would be among the casualties.

 

What's not to like?

 

   Dream on, it will never happen. I bet you believe in Santa Claus.

[doverfox]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-starmer-boris-johnson-election-b1965513.html

 

[Saxondale]

On 28/11/2021 at 03:59, Heathrow fox said:

I don’t think anyone can claim that full on Socialism has ever been tried.properly.It would need to be the dominant world model for us to see it given a real chance to fail.

Nah, I don’t buy the not-been-done-properly argument. There have been some pretty serious attempts, e.g. DDR.
 

And obviously it’s not going to be the dominant world model - you can’t premise an economic model on forcing the whole world to comply with a single system.

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, Saxondale said:

Nah, I don’t buy the not-been-done-properly argument. There have been some pretty serious attempts, e.g. DDR.
 

And obviously it’s not going to be the dominant world model - you can’t premise an economic model on forcing the whole world to comply with a single system.

 

I can't believe this argument is being seriously used still.

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

I can't believe this argument is being seriously used still.

I can't believe you guys are still trying to move the conversation away from what's wrong with laissez faire capitalism.  Concerns about communism or other extreme forms of socialism are better put in the 'I have something to say' thread because it's really not relevant to the intended discussion.

[ClaphamFox]

Labour reshuffling again. Cat Smith has resigned from her role as Shadow Minister for Democracy because (among other things) Starmer hasn't reinstated Corbyn to the PLP...

 

reshuffle

[jgtuk]

I have to say, I’m looking forward to seeing what unravels from the Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru collaboration. Interesting policies so far include rent controls, nationalised energy, free school meals to all primary school pupils, childcare for all two-year-olds, creation of a National Care Service, limits on second-home ownership, a replacement for council tax, the creation of a publicly owned construction company and bringing net zero from 2050 to 2035 .

[Claridge]

On 28/11/2021 at 09:45, Buce said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/28/opposition-parties-can-oust-tories-if-they-cooperate-on-seats

Opposition parties ‘can oust Tories’ if they cooperate on seats

New analysis shows that a ‘progressive alliance’ can overturn the Tory majority by fielding unity candidates in 154 English seats

 

Duncan Smith and Rees-Smug - and possibly Bozo - would be among the casualties.

 

What's not to like?

 

This drivel gets trotted out every couple of years, never works and never will I should imagine. The left needs a set of policies that a majority of people can rally around, from one party. Can’t see Starmer inspiring even his own party , never mind a coalition 

[jgtuk]

14 minutes ago, Claridge said:

This drivel gets trotted out every couple of years, never works and never will I should imagine. The left needs a set of policies that a majority of people can rally around, from one party. Can’t see Starmer inspiring even his own party , never mind a coalition 

Starmer has divided the party more than ever, over 150,000 party members ripping up their cards in 18 months. That’s approximately 14%. 
I’ve even heard rumours of potential bankruptcy. 
As to policies, I genuinely don’t know what the current Labour Party or Starmers are, the man is a mess, this reshuffle is a mess and I don’t know if any worthwhile opposition exists anymore. 
I predict a change in leadership at some point in the new year.

[blabyboy]

1 hour ago, jgtuk said:

Starmer has divided the party more than ever, over 150,000 party members ripping up their cards in 18 months. That’s approximately 14%. 
I’ve even heard rumours of potential bankruptcy. 
As to policies, I genuinely don’t know what the current Labour Party or Starmers are, the man is a mess, this reshuffle is a mess and I don’t know if any worthwhile opposition exists anymore. 
I predict a change in leadership at some point in the new year.

If Unite or GMT remove their support then it won't be a potential bankruptcy for Labour. They're already into discussions at Labour Central Office about reductions in headcount again.

 

Think you could be right on the change of leadership, but I will stick my neck out and say possibly both major parties will do it next year... Live the dream😁

[Voll Blau]

10 hours ago, jgtuk said:

Starmer has divided the party more than ever, over 150,000 party members ripping up their cards in 18 months. That’s approximately 14%. 
I’ve even heard rumours of potential bankruptcy. 
As to policies, I genuinely don’t know what the current Labour Party or Starmers are, the man is a mess, this reshuffle is a mess and I don’t know if any worthwhile opposition exists anymore. 
I predict a change in leadership at some point in the new year.

Not quite sure how the reshuffle is a mess, aside from the tiff over whether Angela Rayner knew about it (which, I admit, is pretty poor form if that version of events is correct)? Plenty of good moves like Nandy taking on levelling up and Yvette Cooper getting a promotion too. Labour also announced eight policies at their conference. Must say I find this desire for them to basically have a manifesto out already for the next election a bit weird. Just gives the Tories more time to try and find an alternative the public will buy into.

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-party-conference-2021-announcements-policy-climate-crime-education-1222508

 

As for Labour members, the problem with Labour members (and I say this as a Labour member) is that they think they're more important than Labour voters.