Not The Politics Thread.

[leicsmac]

I can understand that Iraq is going to be a black mark on the mans legacy forevermore (and it should be), but I also think that it's a fact that Blair was, rather easily, the best PM the UK has had domestically in terms of helping as many people as possible in the last fifty years. Probably since Attlee, come to think of it.

[ozleicester]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I can understand that Iraq is going to be a black mark on the mans legacy forevermore (and it should be), but I also think that it's a fact that Blair was, rather easily, the best PM the UK has had domestically in terms of helping as many people as possible in the last fifty years. Probably since Attlee, come to think of it.

Sold out the real working class and destroyed the "Labour Party" for years to come... and a war criminal to boot  (it is absolutely a fact that they knew, but killed hundreds of thousands anyway, coz he and piss weak little johnny howard in Oz wanted to suck up to the dumbest president ever)... but thats just my opinion i guess

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Sold out the real working class and destroyed the "Labour Party" for years to come... and a war criminal to boot  (it is absolutely a fact that they knew, but killed hundreds of thousands anyway, coz he and piss weak little johnny howard in Oz wanted to suck up to the dumbest president ever)... but thats just my opinion i guess

If you frame it in those terms then he still did more than every other PM did since Attlee, it's just a really really low bar to clear.

Edited 5 January 2022 by leicsmac

[ozleicester]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If you frame it in those terms then he's still did more than every other PM did since Attlee, it's just a really really low bar to clear.

True... and Xi Jingping (if you leave aside the Uighurs and human rights abuses ) should be given a nobel prize and hailed as one of the all time humanists...for lifting tens of millions from poverty

Edit...sarcasm /s

Edited 5 January 2022 by ozleicester

[Dahnsouff]

16 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

How is that sanctimonious? I'm saying the same standard should be applied consistently and if that's the case its very odd to be up in arms about Blair getting one. I don't care what he gets personally but it's not in anyway unusual.

It was the Iraq war. That was the sole point of horror, I understand he did much good and was a good PM however.

[adam1]

On being asked about support for TFL Johnson said:

 

"Never forget that it was left with a very considerable sum of money by the previous mayor who left the coffers full."

 

What actually happened is that he left 

it with a deficit of 1.5bn and a nominal debt of £9.1bn. He had increased it substantially after taking over from Livingstone.

 

Khan had operating deficit by 71% and increased cash reserves by 13% (pre pandemic).

 

THE BIGGER PICTURE

 

The Gov has supported private rail companies during covid 19. But it wont support TFL. This is because TFL has a labour mayor. Not the first time the Cons have withheld or threatend to withold funding based upon a Labour area or to gain support of their own MPs. 

 

Aka tax payers money for party political purposes.

 

Vote Con.

[Leicesterpool]

Thumb up if you think this is possible.... laugh if you think it's far fetched... My prediction of 2022 in terms of what's happens at number 10 is this. Boris will be forced out of his office by his own party in June and Priti Patel will be elected by her own party to become the new leader of conservative party and of course the new prime minster of United Kingdom. Think Boris days a PM are now counting down. Not sure if I'll be happy with Patel in charge... knowing how she's treated her colleague and staff but sadly it's been inevitable to happen she'd step in when Boris was to go.

[Mike Oxlong]

14 minutes ago, Leicesterpool said:

Thumb up if you think this is possible.... laugh if you think it's far fetched... My prediction of 2022 in terms of what's happens at number 10 is this. Boris will be forced out of his office by his own party in June and Priti Patel will be elected by her own party to become the new leader of conservative party and of course the new prime minster of United Kingdom. Think Boris days a PM are now counting down. Not sure if I'll be happy with Patel in charge... knowing how she's treated her colleague and staff but sadly it's been inevitable to happen she'd step in when Boris was to go.

 

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I think it's more than possible Bozo will get the push, but I can't see Patel being accepted by the membership.

 

Far too brown.

He didn’t want an answer, just rep. Not a cat in hells chance that PP becomes PM though 

[urban.spaceman]

56 minutes ago, Leicesterpool said:

Thumb up if you think this is possible.... laugh if you think it's far fetched... My prediction of 2022 in terms of what's happens at number 10 is this. Boris will be forced out of his office by his own party in June and Priti Patel will be elected by her own party to become the new leader of conservative party and of course the new prime minster of United Kingdom. Think Boris days a PM are now counting down. Not sure if I'll be happy with Patel in charge... knowing how she's treated her colleague and staff but sadly it's been inevitable to happen she'd step in when Boris was to go.

The Tories seem to be aware of how sinister Patel is perceived to be by the public and there would literally be a revolt if she became PM. They’ll be looking at the current polls and desperate to avoid a GE. She’s one of the worst choices they could make. 

 

Sunak is far more likely IMO, with Javid as Chancellor and Gove just sort of lurking in the background like one of the shit ones in Take That. 
 

I do think there will be another scandal or two to come out soon, probably from Cummings. 

[adam1]

For leadership theres more to come with Liz Truss re taxpayers money spent at exclusive members club where it wasnt to do with Government business..... allegedly.

 

Watch this space. I dont think she is a runner.

 

Leftfield Tom Tugendhat.

 

Outsider - Theresa May. She still has support with MPs.

[SecretPro]

2 hours ago, Leicesterpool said:

Thumb up if you think this is possible.... laugh if you think it's far fetched... My prediction of 2022 in terms of what's happens at number 10 is this. Boris will be forced out of his office by his own party in June and Priti Patel will be elected by her own party to become the new leader of conservative party and of course the new prime minster of United Kingdom. Think Boris days a PM are now counting down. Not sure if I'll be happy with Patel in charge... knowing how she's treated her colleague and staff but sadly it's been inevitable to happen she'd step in when Boris was to go.

For anyone with eyes and ears that has to be understatement of the century.

[danny.]

53 minutes ago, adam1 said:

For leadership theres more to come with Liz Truss re taxpayers money spent at exclusive members club where it wasnt to do with Government business..... allegedly.

 

Watch this space. I dont think she is a runner.

 

Leftfield Tom Tugendhat.

 

Outsider - Theresa May. She still has support with MPs.

I can't really stand her, but she was the best Tory PM I can remember, although that's like choosing your favourite disease. She never stood a chance with Brexit, the only person that could is someone like Boris/Trump who would just lie for years about everything until he finally gets removed.

[urban.spaceman]

 

[adam1]

5 minutes ago, danny. said:

I can't really stand her, but she was the best Tory PM I can remember, although that's like choosing your favourite disease. She never stood a chance with Brexit, the only person that could is someone like Boris/Trump who would just lie for years about everything until he finally gets removed.

But Brexit is still the issue. It isn't going to work - the Gov knows this, only the die hards (minority) within the party still want it.

 

For the party (note party not Gov - two dynamics to this) to survive and to have  hope in the next election they are going to need to have a climb down.

 

This gov cant back down - save of face. But the party knows it needs to. Thus a new leader and government with May coming in with her own cabinet would allow them to alter the course which would allow for alignment with the EEA (note that the Referendum was to leave the EU and did not question whether we should not be aligned with the EEA - two completely different things).

 

This approach has some danger from the far right taking votes (wanting a hard brexit). But that vote is often very very weak on election day. The damage will be minor compared to what the Lib Dems would do on the current course.

[Zear0]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/05/johnson-fumbles-and-flails-under-pressure-from-rayner

 

I think you'll find he was merely offering alternative facts. 

[Sampson]

2 hours ago, danny. said:

I can't really stand her, but she was the best Tory PM I can remember, although that's like choosing your favourite disease. She never stood a chance with Brexit, the only person that could is someone like Boris/Trump who would just lie for years about everything until he finally gets removed.

Even though he gets remembered as dull and trying to keep afloat in all the in fighting, I always thought John Major was an intelligent and reasonable man, even if I didn't agree with everything he said. 

 

I can also understand why people like Major and David Davies are at an absolute despair with the current government and over the Brexit negotiations and things like the red meat populism of the Nationalties and Borders and Police and Crimes acts.

 

Someone like Ted Heath would be considered to the Left of Starner nowadays though (Heath famously hated neoliberalism and the direction Thatcher took the party and it was an open secret he wanted to favour things like gay rights, pro-Europeanism and pro-immigration but knew they wouldn't pass parliment), so the Conservative party has changed plenty over the years. I think many traditional Conservatives would despise the populism of Johnson and the Hard Right red meat of Patel.

Edited 6 January 2022 by Sampson

[Daggers]

21 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Even though he gets remembered as dull and trying to keep afloat in all the in fighting, I always thought John Major was an intelligent and reasonable man…

I’d accept ‘decent’, he likes cricket after all, but dull? This man had the bails to tup Edwina Curry. That’s not dull - nauseous, stomach churning, or the stuff of nightmares, but never dull.

[Dunge]

Just now, Daggers said:

I’d accept ‘decent’, he likes cricket after all, but dull? This man had the bails to tup Edwina Curry. That’s not dull - nauseous, stomach churning, or the stuff of nightmares, but never dull.

I remember an old friend of mine saying that news of that affair restored his faith in the Conservative party. 

 

Although I was never old enough to vote for or against him, my overriding memory of Major is that he was weak, a bit like a 90s Neville Chamberlain. I’ve never had much time for him myself. I prefer Brown and May as decent but ultimately short-lived leaders.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, Daggers said:

I’d accept ‘decent’, he likes cricket after all, but dull? This man had the bails to tup Edwina Curry. That’s not dull - nauseous, stomach churning, or the stuff of nightmares, but never dull.

Tbh my enduring memory of Ms Currie will be her calling out the far right moron Paul Joseph Watson on Twitter regarding use of strap-on implements.

 

I mean, bloody hell.

[Daggers]

53 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I remember an old friend of mine saying that news of that affair restored his faith in the Conservative party. 

 

Although I was never old enough to vote for or against him, my overriding memory of Major is that he was weak, a bit like a 90s Neville Chamberlain. I’ve never had much time for him myself. I prefer Brown and May as decent but ultimately short-lived leaders.

In seriousness, I’d stand by saying Major is a decent man, an honourable man, not something I’d ascribe to May based on her willingness to pop the party before absolutely everything else. Major would never have stood by and allowed the right wing of the party to wreak the havoc on the UK that it has got away with.

[Daggers]

51 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Tbh my enduring memory of Ms Currie will be her calling out the far right moron Paul Joseph Watson on Twitter regarding use of strap-on implements.

 

I mean, bloody hell.

I’d love that to be true. But it still wouldn’t come close to redeeming her in my eyes - the proto Priti that she was and remains.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Daggers said:

I’d love that to be true. But it still wouldn’t come close to redeeming her in my eyes - the proto Priti that she was and remains.

That's totally fair enough.

 

It did put a smile on my face, though.

[Sly]

I still think we’re a bit of a mess and divided as a country. Brexit drove a big wedge between people and we’re now seeing this again with the handling of the virus. 

 

As a country, it feels like our policy is still very much short terms and we aren’t thinking beyond the next 4 years at times.

 

* NHS needs sorting out. As explained in the Corona thread by @Parafox, the red tape involved to inject the vaccine is crazy, to then be rejected when he has more than enough relevant experience. That will be costing us millions and we’re wasting time, not just money. That’s one example of what I’m assuming is one of millions that people could tell us. The stress on the system is crazy. It needs a flatter structure, run with an aligned approach and accountability. If people can’t fix it, who them the door and get someone that will.
 

* Environment - We need a drive to go greener, quicker. Just ban plastic bags, go paper, never mind the larger super markets charging and making money for the bloody things. I know it’s harsh now, however reduce the amount going to landfill and force the hand to recycle. People should be given a financial incentive deal to recycle, so put glass / plastic bottles in a machine etc. Littering / fly tipping should be a hefty fine.
 

Unemployment - Some form of work fare scheme - whereby claiming benefits go out and undertake litter picking, farming etc? I’m not talking hundreds of hours per week either! Just something so that they’re giving back to the system at least.    The number of people claiming certain allowances needs re-assessing as well, as that’s taking money from the system. 

 

Prison service - Increase the capacity, more severe sentences, however the cost needs reducing so reduced human rights would need to be reviewed, no luxury TVs, consoles etc! I appreciate it’s a balance of balancing boredom with re-education …… maybe get them litter picking. 
 

Taxation - If you’re operating in this country, you pay tax. No dodgy offshore banking or anything like that. Can you

imagine the amount of extra money we’d generate tomorrow if we actually did this? 

 

* Infrastructure / construction - We need an all round improved rail, road, sea and air links. Construction costs are sky rocketing, however that is partially due to

companies looking to profiteer off the current availability struggles. We’d be better privatising a sector of the market, as the initial outlay would make for significant cost saving (if run correctly), down the line. I keep seeing we need extra houses etc? Why, are we expecting a growth in population? Yes, I appreciate we need some, however they don’t all need to be detached, 5 beds etc! Build terraced properties and starter home Villages if we need to. Make them actually affordable to people. Council tax needs assessing as well, as people

who sit on empty homes, should be taxed more not less. Maybe a tax on the value of the house, rather than something set by the local authority would be better? Potentially increase the tax per house or something like that. If companies land bank and don’t build, the state should have the right to purchase : auction properties or housing that isn’t used. We also don’t need to continue to destroy the green belt land we have either, plenty of other lands that is redundant and could be utilised first. 
 

 

* Pensions - Extend the retirement age to 70. People are generally fitter now, so can work longer than 10 - 15 years ago. This would alone save millions of resources that can be allocated elsewhere. Again not a popular choice, however needs must. 

 

* Education - Should be mandatory until 21, be that through College, University or some working of education / work based apprenticeship. If you can’t find anything ….. National service it is! I’ve seen models that suggest that starting school at a later age is beneficial and maybe this needs assessing. The cost saving on this, would potentially go some way in reducing the crazy childcare cost if it’s feasible. We could also do with cutting the pointless higher education courses. Focus in on the key areas we need as a country, engineering, IT, healthcare and build the entire education system

around a pathway to a longer term career. Not something that was taken on a whim like Horology, Surfing or consumer behaviour! 

 

* Transport - Drive for electric / solar vehicles needs accelerating. So does the infrastructure for charging etc. Every new  home should with one. Terraced houses will need them plugged into the floor on the road somehow. We also need to do more to encourage walking and cycling, as that would improve overall health and well-being. We’re in a more technology advanced world now, you don’t need to hop on a plane to have a business meeting in Japan for 2 hours.

* Drugs / alcohol - With the amount of illegal drugs trade, you could argue that legalisation of certain products would allow for increased national Income via taxation. Increase the cost of alcohol of per unit. 

* Voting - Mandatory for all to return votes, even if they exercise the right to not vote, at least get them to return / acknowledge some form of return. The House of Lords needs a proper reform as that’s a mess of anyone that has got in financially. It would be better with a more balanced council of 100 people, from various walks of life. Party funding needs reviewing as well, as that’s a bit of a joke!  Potentially county Mayors? With a proper structured local council below them might be a better way forward. 

 

* Media - All needs holding accountable for spinning lies and spreading rumours. Be that the old classic newspaper or social media. 
 

* Gambling - It needs a proper reform, as it’s heavily linked to poor mental health and addictiveness. It also needs a limit on how much people are allowed to spend. The reform would need to

go from the advertising, to the free bets, jackpot machines, odds being clearer on potential winnings. 

 

Maybe all a little simplistic and I’m not doing the books, however some of these issues just don’t seem to be addressed! 

 

 

[Voll Blau]

"If you've broken the law and committed criminal damage you should be punished. If the jury is a barrier to ensuring they are punished then that needs to be addressed."

 

Tory MP for Ipswich Tom Hunt there, just threatening to overrule our age-old justice system in cases where the verdict displeases him and his party after the Colston statue case. Sound.

 

https://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/tom-hunt-colston-four-jury-trials-comments-8603210

 

 

[Brizzle Fox]

22 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

"If you've broken the law and committed criminal damage you should be punished. If the jury is a barrier to ensuring they are punished then that needs to be addressed."

 

Tory MP for Ipswich Tom Hunt there, just threatening to overrule our age-old justice system in cases where the verdict displeases him and his party after the Colston statue case. Sound.

 

https://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/tom-hunt-colston-four-jury-trials-comments-8603210

 

 

Don't worry Priti P has probably got a bit of legislation up her sleeve to do away with juries altogether....