Not The Politics Thread.

[Strokes]

Just now, Line-X said:

Because as Finnegan alludes to, the informed arguments were obfuscated and silenced by dishonest and disingenuous campaigns and populist appeal via social media and the tabloid press.

I’m not sure it’s quite that simple, I don’t think the campaigns had anywhere near the effect people think they did. I think 90% of people had made up their minds on the EU long before a referendum was even announced.

Now whether that’s because of the media they consumed is a different debate.

[leicsmac]

And, as Finn implied above, the issue here isn't really Brexit, or Trump, or the Covid response, or any single thing like that.

 

It is the polarisation, that is mostly driven digitally, that forces people into one camp or another and powers all of them. And that polarisation only grows deeper, just at the time where a global issue has already raised its head and another much bigger one is in the pipeline that *will* hurt us all - grievously - if it is not met with a unified, coordinated response.

Edited 21 January 2022 by leicsmac

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I’m not sure it’s quite that simple, I don’t think the campaigns had anywhere near the effect people think they did.

I think you'll find hat bloody great bus with a brazen lie emblazoned across it was more influential than you think. 

[Tommy Fresh]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I’m not sure it’s quite that simple, I don’t think the campaigns had anywhere near the effect people think they did. I think 90% of people had made up their minds on the EU long before a referendum was even announced.

Now whether that’s because of the media they consumed is a different debate.

I think a lot of the media spin pushed people maybe leaning that way slightly over the line to actually go for it. Like you say I think a number of people also had preconcieved ideas or had an idea of what would happen if we were to leave through their own beliefs, social media or just through interacting with friends. My other half used to come home from work in the lead up to the referendum with comments from colleagues that were just undeniably false and most had nothing even to do with being in the EU. 

[Finnegan]

27 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I think 90% of people had made up their minds on the EU long before a referendum was even announced

 

90% might be a bit high but I think you're probably not far wrong.

 

But, again, that's sort of my point - that those lines had been drawn way before the vote and before the campaign, Euroscepticism had been growing for a generation. The creep of bad actors using social media to implant political ideologies is not a new trend, it's been happening as long as those platforms have existed. That's without talking about our news infrastructure, almost all of which is now populist right wing and owned by billionaires with vested interests, putting the message out there that "the EU = foreigners coming here en masse and that's bad" or "the EU = johnny foreigner telling us plucky Brits what to do!"

 

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

90% might be a bit high but I think you're probably not far wrong.

 

But, again, that's sort of my point - that those lines had been drawn way before the vote and before the campaign, Euroscepticism had been growing for a generation. The creep of bad actors using social media to implant political ideologies is not a new trend, it's been happening as long as those platforms have existed. That's without talking about our news infrastructure, almost all of which is now populist right wing and owned by billionaires with vested interests, putting the message out there that "the EU = foreigners coming here en masse and that's bad" or "the EU = johnny foreigner telling us plucky Brits what to do!"

 

Yeah I was specifically talking about crossing party lines. I don’t think without brexit you would have seen that happen. I’m open to evidence and but I genuinely think it’s where that came from and will be reversed if they avoid the brexit hot potato.

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

This frustrates the hell out of me, not gonna lie. 

 

Firstly, when you voted Brexit we all knew who would be in charge of delivering it. We knew who the hard-line Brexiteers were in the Tory party. If you needed to be told that Johnson and his Clique were incompetent that's on you. A vote for Brexit WAS a vote for THEM negotiating it. You weren't blind sided by that it was signposted in neon for years.

 

Secondly, with that said, the notion that Brexit is fine but the people that went to bat for us were the problem is just a Leave voters' fantasy to try and convince themselves they haven't done something stupid. You're just shifting blame from yourself "it's still a good idea, Boris is just incompetent!" no it was always a stupid idea because we were never, ever going to be negotiating from a position of strength when leaving such a massive bloc. 

 

This was my problem with the initial Brexit referendum and its terms and why Cameron should be held ****ing accountable.

 

You shouldn't be able to call a snap referendum like he did.

 

The SNP ran on a manifesto to have indyref in the 2011 elections, and even set the date in March 2013, a full 18 months before the vote. YEARS leading up to it, with a clear manifesto, messaging and timetable in the event of a Yes vote. 

 

Cameron formally set the June vote date on February 20th 2016 - four ****ing months in which to discuss such a huge issue and barely 13 months after he'd won the the 2015 election by the slenderest majority. Even worse, he created a situation where anyone could claim anything and not have to be held accountable for it. Everyone talks about that bus but Johnson and Gove had no ****ing power to enact it afterwards as they weren't even in a position of power to promise it.

 

When I left the UK in mid January he hadn't even called the referendum yet. When I landed home on June 24th we'd left. And everyone was in chaos because nobody knew what was happening next. 

 

That's why Johnson didn't step up and take the PM role, he didn't have a ****ing clue what he'd unleashed and didn't have the balls to follow through, so we ended up with the farce of a Remain campaigning Prime Minister trying to enact something she didn't even believe in.

[bovril]

We won't rejoin the EU. It's arrogance to think we could  But much of hard Brexit could be reversed or softened by Labour.

 

Labour probably won't offer this though as the majority of the electorate still see Brexit as a single thing and not a series of choices we've made 

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

This frustrates the hell out of me, not gonna lie. 

 

Firstly, when you voted Brexit we all knew who would be in charge of delivering it. We knew who the hard-line Brexiteers were in the Tory party. If you needed to be told that Johnson and his Clique were incompetent that's on you. A vote for Brexit WAS a vote for THEM negotiating it. You weren't blind sided by that it was signposted in neon for years.

 

Secondly, with that said, the notion that Brexit is fine but the people that went to bat for us were the problem is just a Leave voters' fantasy to try and convince themselves they haven't done something stupid. You're just shifting blame from yourself "it's still a good idea, Boris is just incompetent!" no it was always a stupid idea because we were never, ever going to be negotiating from a position of strength when leaving such a massive bloc. 

 

I don’t expect us to agree on this. 

 

I think what I found disappointing was a refusal in sectors, including in Westminster itself, to accept the result of the referendum. Perhaps it was naive of me not to expect the sheer number of people who tried to subvert it, because I knew for me that if the vote had come back remain then it was case closed.

 

Ultimately my view isn’t a shock that the people who supported Brexit weren’t actually nice, sweet innocent people after all. I think it’s a very Remainer way of looking at it to think that I did. I could see full well what that bus was. I saw Farage in front of that scaremongering immigration poster. I believed it would result in a short-term hit to the economy even when the Brexiteers denied it. I backed Brexit despite those things, because I thought we had better longer term prospects as a country not tied to the EU. I still believe that. And you clearly don’t. And that’s fine.

Edited 21 January 2022 by Dunge

[Dunge]

30 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

This was my problem with the initial Brexit referendum and its terms and why Cameron should be held ****ing accountable.

 

You shouldn't be able to call a snap referendum like he did.

 

The SNP ran on a manifesto to have indyref in the 2011 elections, and even set the date in March 2013, a full 18 months before the vote. YEARS leading up to it, with a clear manifesto, messaging and timetable in the event of a Yes vote. 

 

Cameron formally set the June vote date on February 20th 2016 - four ****ing months in which to discuss such a huge issue and barely 13 months after he'd won the the 2015 election by the slenderest majority. Even worse, he created a situation where anyone could claim anything and not have to be held accountable for it. Everyone talks about that bus but Johnson and Gove had no ****ing power to enact it afterwards as they weren't even in a position of power to promise it.

 

When I left the UK in mid January he hadn't even called the referendum yet. When I landed home on June 24th we'd left. And everyone was in chaos because nobody knew what was happening next. 

 

That's why Johnson didn't step up and take the PM role, he didn't have a ****ing clue what he'd unleashed and didn't have the balls to follow through, so we ended up with the farce of a Remain campaigning Prime Minister trying to enact something she didn't even believe in.

I take a different view here as well. 17 months people had to make their decision - that was the amount of time people knew a referendum was coming. And the Brexit situation was different to Scotland: That referendum was called by a party who had dedicated their whole political lives to preparing for said referendum. The Brexit referendum was called by an actual Remainer! There wasn’t a plan for leaving set out by government because the policy of the government itself was not to leave.

 

It’s true that nobody could promise anything, as you say, but how could they? In fact that’s likely to have been partly Cameron’s thinking. The whole Conservative remain campaign was based on the expression that leaving was too risky, because that was perceived to have worked in Scotland.

[Dunge]

Actually, you know what - I’ve had enough Brexit arguments with people who think I’m either a div or deluded to last me a lifetime. I’m backing out. Say what you will.

[urban.spaceman]

 

[urban.spaceman]

14 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Actually, you know what - I’ve had enough Brexit arguments with people who think I’m either a div or deluded to last me a lifetime. I’m backing out. Say what you will.

For what it's worth this is something I've utterly loathed about some Remainer types since the vote. The sneering attitude by these wounded losers just added another layer of toxicity and just proved to me that they a) didn't understand why anyone could vote leave and b) couldn't comprehend why they lost. And I say this as a Remainer myself.

 

Whole thing's a ****ing shitshow

[Alf Bentley]

24 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

 

Not my party, but it was a major loss to British politics that Stewart felt he had to quit. 

 

At a time when we have a lot of people in parliament and government who lack principle or intelligence and aren't qualified to do the job, he was someone who manifestly was well qualified (even if I'd have disagreed with some of his views).

[kenny]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

We won't rejoin the EU. It's arrogance to think we could  But much of hard Brexit could be reversed or softened by Labour.

 

Labour probably won't offer this though as the majority of the electorate still see Brexit as a single thing and not a series of choices we've made 

We could rejoin.

 

It wouldn't be as an equal partner though, they would make us pay for daring to leave.

[Finnaldo]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

We could rejoin.

 

It wouldn't be as an equal partner though, they would make us pay for daring to leave.

At that point why not just enter the EEA?

 

Having votes Remain that would be my preference over rejoining.

[bovril]

20 minutes ago, kenny said:

We could rejoin.

 

It wouldn't be as an equal partner though, they would make us pay for daring to leave.

We won't as long as the Conservatives are Eurosceptic and one of the biggest 2 parties. We've thrown away what was a pretty good position within the EU 

 

17 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

At that point why not just enter the EEA?

 

Having votes Remain that would be my preference over rejoining.

That would mean FoM no? Which would make the whole thing a bit pointless. Although I never really understood why people here were so worried about Europeans coming they decided to take away their own rights to work on the continent.

[kenny]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

We won't as long as the Conservatives are Eurosceptic and one of the biggest 2 parties. We've thrown away what was a pretty good position within the EU 

 

That would mean FoM no? Which would make the whole thing a bit pointless. Although I never really understood why people here were so worried about Europeans coming they decided to take away their own rights to work on the continent.

I think the Europhiles have become more vocal since we left and they give a strong impression that the UK should be punished for leaving an amazing project. There were many comments that the UK's scepticism helped the EU keep itself sensible and that they would feel our loss politically, I think we are seeing this now.

 

I'm always confused by this workers rights thing. I hear it a lot from remainers on LBC about how sad it is that their children will be denied the ability to work in Europe. Yet I can see that there are any barriers for me to work in the EU other than I may have to complete some forms before I do. 

[leicsmac]

As well as the above thoughts, my greatest objection to Brexit was always the barriers it would inevitably place in the way of scientific collaboration, right when unity is really what is needed on that matter, perhaps more than any other.

[FoxesDeb]

10 minutes ago, kenny said:

I think the Europhiles have become more vocal since we left and they give a strong impression that the UK should be punished for leaving an amazing project. There were many comments that the UK's scepticism helped the EU keep itself sensible and that they would feel our loss politically, I think we are seeing this now.

 

I'm always confused by this workers rights thing. I hear it a lot from remainers on LBC about how sad it is that their children will be denied the ability to work in Europe. Yet I can see that there are any barriers for me to work in the EU other than I may have to complete some forms before I do. 

Sadly it's not just a case of filling in a few forms to be able to work in Europe now though. A UK citizen has virtually no chance of being able to be employed, at least not here in Spain, but I imagine the rules would be EU wide. 

[danny.]

7 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Sadly it's not just a case of filling in a few forms to be able to work in Europe now though. A UK citizen has virtually no chance of being able to be employed, at least not here in Spain, but I imagine the rules would be EU wide. 

You can be employed in any country, but you will need to have qualifications that country wants, and often a sponsor. So if you're an in demand worker, you should be able to work in a country that wants you. If you just fancy moving and looking for work there, then yea, probably not. Great, isn't it? Go Brexit!

The thing that makes me chuckle is all the people who voted to leave to stop more brown people coming to the UK, have now ended up with lots of brown people coming to the UK. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

2 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

This was my problem with the initial Brexit referendum and its terms and why Cameron should be held ****ing accountable.

 

You shouldn't be able to call a snap referendum like he did.

 

The SNP ran on a manifesto to have indyref in the 2011 elections, and even set the date in March 2013, a full 18 months before the vote. YEARS leading up to it, with a clear manifesto, messaging and timetable in the event of a Yes vote. 

 

Cameron formally set the June vote date on February 20th 2016 - four ****ing months in which to discuss such a huge issue and barely 13 months after he'd won the the 2015 election by the slenderest majority. Even worse, he created a situation where anyone could claim anything and not have to be held accountable for it. Everyone talks about that bus but Johnson and Gove had no ****ing power to enact it afterwards as they weren't even in a position of power to promise it.

 

When I left the UK in mid January he hadn't even called the referendum yet. When I landed home on June 24th we'd left. And everyone was in chaos because nobody knew what was happening next. 

 

That's why Johnson didn't step up and take the PM role, he didn't have a ****ing clue what he'd unleashed and didn't have the balls to follow through, so we ended up with the farce of a Remain campaigning Prime Minister trying to enact something she didn't even believe in.

I think a big reason why he did that though because he wanted as little time as possible for the debate which I believe he thought would help remain, remain literally had nothing in the tank and while the vote leave side get rightly criticised for their claims, remain made exactly the same outlandish claims under the project fear umbrella. It probably would've worked 10 or so years ago, but there's been a big push against the status quo for quite a while now.

[FoxesDeb]

5 minutes ago, danny. said:

You can be employed in any country, but you will need to have qualifications that country wants, and often a sponsor. So if you're an in demand worker, you should be able to work in a country that wants you. If you just fancy moving and looking for work there, then yea, probably not. Great, isn't it? Go Brexit!

The thing that makes me chuckle is all the people who voted to leave to stop more brown people coming to the UK, have now ended up with lots of brown people coming to the UK. 

The only way a UK citizen can be employed here is if the company can prove there is no EU citizen who can do the job. Which is pretty difficult, and not something the employers really want to get into, it's much simpler for them to simply hire from within the EU. 

[danny.]

Just now, FoxesDeb said:

The only way a UK citizen can be employed here is if the company can prove there is no EU citizen who can do the job. Which is pretty difficult, and not something the employers really want to get into, it's much simpler for them to simply hire from within the EU. 

Ouch. I looked at working in Germany and the Netherlands (post Brexit), and they had a list of specialist jobs they wanted, and said if you match this and have a degree etc. you can apply for a work visa. Is Spain different, or has that come in very recently?

 

[Foxdiamond]

5 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

I think a big reason why he did that though because he wanted as little time as possible for the debate which I believe he thought would help remain, remain literally had nothing in the tank and while the vote leave side get rightly criticised for their claims, remain made exactly the same outlandish claims under the project fear umbrella. It probably would've worked 10 or so years ago, but there's been a big push against the status quo for quite a while now.

Was it a gamble by Cameron to stop a civil war in his party and came unstuck? I can understand why lots of people had/have a mistrust of EU as wasting money not democratic and so on. I still suspect some were blaming all their problems on EU when in fact a lot of issues within remit of our own government