Not The Politics Thread.

[kenny]

1 minute ago, danny. said:

Ouch. I looked at working in Germany and the Netherlands (post Brexit), and they had a list of specialist jobs they wanted, and said if you match this and have a degree etc. you can apply for a work visa. Is Spain different, or has that come in very recently?

 

This is my understanding too. Why would EU countries turn away desperately needed skilled staff?

 

As for less skilled staff, the EU has the same shortages that we do, so I am surprised that they would turn away 'migrant' workers from the UK should we wish go. The truth of it is that British people do not settle well abroad and our foreign language skills are much lower than other European countries so I doubt the demand is that high.

[bovril]

48 minutes ago, kenny said:

I think the Europhiles have become more vocal since we left and they give a strong impression that the UK should be punished for leaving an amazing project. There were many comments that the UK's scepticism helped the EU keep itself sensible and that they would feel our loss politically, I think we are seeing this now.

 

I'm always confused by this workers rights thing. I hear it a lot from remainers on LBC about how sad it is that their children will be denied the ability to work in Europe. Yet I can see that there are any barriers for me to work in the EU other than I may have to complete some forms before I do. 

You could work visa free in some of the best countries in the world, now you can't. Remainers are wrong about many things but not this one - we've pissed away something absolutely brilliant.

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, kenny said:

This is my understanding too. Why would EU countries turn away desperately needed skilled staff?

 

As for less skilled staff, the EU has the same shortages that we do, so I am surprised that they would turn away 'migrant' workers from the UK should we wish go. The truth of it is that British people do not settle well abroad and our foreign language skills are much lower than other European countries so I doubt the demand is that high.

...which should be something of a reflection, really.

[FoxesDeb]

There is indeed a skills shortage list here, as there is elsewhere in the EU, but for a uk citizen to be accepted the employer needs to be able to prove that they are unable to fill the position with an EU citizen. It's also far more costly for the employer to go through all the beaurocracy arranging visas when someone from the EU can just move. 

[SpacedX]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

As well as the above thoughts, my greatest objection to Brexit was always the barriers it would inevitably place in the way of scientific collaboration, right when unity is really what is needed on that matter, perhaps more than any other.

Horizon Europe does to some extent redress this. It  coincides with the next seven-year EU budget and was I think from memory it has a €95 billion allocation. Where the UK does not formally associate with EU research programmes, the UK government pledges to implement ‘ambitious alternatives’ to address funding gaps which is all very well but domestic efforts to replicate the scheme cannot replace the value of a multi-lateral programme or the research landscape prior to Brexit. Disagreements surrounding our contribution to the scheme and how much it would receive were inevitable, with a probable UK net contribution of £3bn over the programme’s seven-year life.

 

Another consequence of Brexit is the disincentive for talented European students to study and seek employment in this country in terms of the retraction of financial support and the right to remain. This has also impacted revenue within the HE sector. 

Edited 21 January 2022 by Line-X

[kenny]

15 minutes ago, bovril said:

You could work visa free in some of the best countries in the world, now you can't. Remainers are wrong about many things but not this one - we've pissed away something absolutely brilliant.

I don't have much interest in working in the EU so I accept its irrelevant.

 

But bearing in mind British people had all those years to work Visa free and it wasn't taken up in great numbers it suggests it wasn't the amazing benefit that remainers say it is. Particularly as you can still work there albeit a Visa is now needed as it is in any other part of the world.

 

 

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, kenny said:

I don't have much interest in working in the EU so I accept its irrelevant.

 

But bearing in mind British people had all those years to work Visa free and it wasn't taken up in great numbers it suggests it wasn't the amazing benefit that remainers say it is. Particularly as you can still work there albeit a Visa is now needed as it is in any other part of the world.

 

 

Also the same rule but opposite side of the coin, has low skilled migrant workers driving down wages at the bottom rung. (Before anyone says anything, I know it’s not the fault of the people)

[danny.]

26 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...which should be something of a reflection, really.

Seems like a cultural thing, maybe arrogance? Many people don't even make any effort to pronounce foreign words here, the amount of people that say i.e. Chor-it-zo, it's not like Chor-ee-tho is hard to even say for a native English person. I would guess that the amount of music/movies/TV shows in English from the US make it less desirable to learn another language, doubly so as English is a bit of an international language too. A real shame though, I always think it's nice to at least learn some basic phrases if you are travelling abroad, instead of expecting everyone else to speak English.

 

5 minutes ago, kenny said:

I don't have much interest in working in the EU so I accept its irrelevant.

 

But bearing in mind British people had all those years to work Visa free and it wasn't taken up in great numbers it suggests it wasn't the amazing benefit that remainers say it is. Particularly as you can still work there albeit a Visa is now needed as it is in any other part of the world.

The 50-70k people a year immigrating to the EU would probably disagree with you. Your last point is incorrect, if you look at the last few comments.

[bovril]

22 minutes ago, kenny said:

I don't have much interest in working in the EU so I accept its irrelevant.

 

 

And we wonder why there's so much ill feeling towards Brexit voters.

 

22 minutes ago, kenny said:

But bearing in mind British people had all those years to work Visa free and it wasn't taken up in great numbers it suggests it wasn't the amazing benefit that remainers say it is.

 

 

Wrong.

[leicsmac]

24 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Horizon Europe does to some extent redress this. It  coincides with the next seven-year EU budget and was I think from memory it has a €95 billion allocation. Where the UK does not formally associate with EU research programmes, the UK government pledges to implement ‘ambitious alternatives’ to address funding gaps which is all very well but domestic efforts to replicate the scheme cannot replace the value of a multi-lateral programme or the research landscape prior to Brexit. Disagreements surrounding our contribution to the scheme and how much it would receive were inevitable, with a probable UK net contribution of £3bn over the programme’s seven-year life.

 

Another consequence of Brexit is the disincentive for talented European students to study and seek employment in this country in terms of the retraction of financial support and the right to remain. This has also impacted revenue within the HE sector. 

This is the whole point really, as well as the last sentence.

 

There are problems on the horizon (and closing fvcking fast) that require global scientific solutions - no one country can do it by themselves given the resources required IMO. That's why such collaboration is important.

 

14 minutes ago, danny. said:

Seems like a cultural thing, maybe arrogance? Many people don't even make any effort to pronounce foreign words here, the amount of people that say i.e. Chor-it-zo, it's not like Chor-ee-tho is hard to even say for a native English person. I would guess that the amount of music/movies/TV shows in English from the US make it less desirable to learn another language, doubly so as English is a bit of an international language too. A real shame though, I always think it's nice to at least learn some basic phrases if you are travelling abroad, instead of expecting everyone else to speak English.

 

The 50-70k people a year immigrating to the EU would probably disagree with you. Your last point is incorrect, if you look at the last few comments.

I'm sorry to say that often it seems to be. See it with British expats on this side of the world, too. But, I do emphasise, not all or even most of them.

[kenny]

5 minutes ago, bovril said:

And we wonder why there's so much ill feeling towards Brexit voters.

 

Wrong.

Shouldn't be ill feeling on my part. I am accepting that I do not want to work in the EU so my opinion on the subject is not as valid as those that feel they have missed out. Perhaps this touchiness is why remainers are so divisive?

 

Perhaps I am wrong. But I doubt it. Talking generally, our language skills are not good enough to work abroad. A figure above of 50-70k per year is not many compared to a population of 67 million.

[danny.]

7 minutes ago, kenny said:

Shouldn't be ill feeling on my part. I am accepting that I do not want to work in the EU so my opinion on the subject is not as valid as those that feel they have missed out. Perhaps this touchiness is why remainers are so divisive?

 

Perhaps I am wrong. But I doubt it. Talking generally, our language skills are not good enough to work abroad. A figure above of 50-70k per year is not many compared to a population of 67 million.

That's per annum, so 10% of the annual birth rate. You don't think that 10% of the people born in the UK moving to the EU is a significant figure? 

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

The only way a UK citizen can be employed here is if the company can prove there is no EU citizen who can do the job. Which is pretty difficult, and not something the employers really want to get into, it's much simpler for them to simply hire from within the EU. 

EU countries are actually only considered "2nd countries" too, so in some countries which have "1st countries" you have to prove that you can't find someone in a 1st country then the EU before you can hire outside, which make it even harder.

Ireland is considered a 1st country for the UK for example, as the laws around Irish citizens rights in the UK were (and still remain, as our agreement with Ireland wasn't affected by Brexit) stronger than EU citizens laws. The Nordic countries are all 1st countries to each other too as an example as the Nordics also have an agreement similar to the UK & Ireland one which is stronger than EU citizens rights. So if you want to apply for a job in Norway, the country first has to prove they can't hire people from Sweden, Denmark, Finland or Iceland, then prove they can't hire anyone from the EU, before being allowed to hire someone outside the EU or the Nordics.

It means UK citizens rights to live and work are even stronger in Ireland than other EU countries though. I've actually seen of a few articles about UK/EU couples for example both moving to Ireland together post-Brexit, because it's a lot easier than going through the lengthy green card process in the UK or their home country.

I also saw an article where the UK citizen moved to the British side of the Irish border and the EU citizen moves to the Irish side of the border while they're waiting on the UK green card so they can still visit each other every night as it's like a 20 minute drive away.

I'm quite interested to see how Brexit will affect Ireland actually. I can potentially see quite an increase in immigration from British people to Ireland. I can also see a lot of businesses moving there as they have access to both the EU and UK markets in a highly educated English-speaking country. I know the population and economy of Ireland are both the fastest growing in the Western World by a significant distance as it is right now. 

Edited 21 January 2022 by Sampson

[bovril]

In 2019 around 1.2 million Britons were estimated to be living in the EU, although the true number would likely be higher as we've seen with EU citizens working in the UK. The majority of those are of working age.

[kenny]

20 minutes ago, danny. said:

That's per annum, so 10% of the annual birth rate. You don't think that 10% of the people born in the UK moving to the EU is a significant figure? 

Its hard to know what I think. I assume much of this figure will include summer workers in Spain and France rather than full time movement, it will also include those that retire abroad to a spanish apartment etc?

 

Compared to the birth rate then yes it sounds high but its all about context.

 

Assuming that I am totally wrong and we have a strong ethic in this country of working abroad in countries that do not work in English, then I am still not sure what is stopping people except the issue of applying for a Visa.

[FoxesDeb]

While we are on the subject of FOM, or the loss of it, it's worth noting that there are thousands of second home owners now unable to use said homes for the period of time they enjoyed pre Brexit.

 

There will also be thousands of people who had plans to retire to the EU in the future, but can now no longer afford to given the visa income requirements since January 2021. People who already own property in the country they planned to retire to don't meet the new income requirements so are having to sell up.

 

As an emigrant I no longer order anything from the UK due to the import tax. All my online shopping is now done within the EU, whereas pre Brexit it would have come from the UK. Given that there are over a million of us just in Spain doing the same, that's probably quite a large amount of retail lost. 

 

 

[FoxesDeb]

11 minutes ago, kenny said:

Its hard to know what I think. I assume much of this figure will include summer workers in Spain and France rather than full time movement, it will also include those that retire abroad to a spanish apartment etc?

 

Compared to the birth rate then yes it sounds high but its all about context.

 

Assuming that I am totally wrong and we have a strong ethic in this country of working abroad in countries that do not work in English, then I am still not sure what is stopping people except the issue of applying for a Visa.

This has been answered, and not just by me. It really isn't the case that you 'just apply for a visa', however it may look with a quick Google search. 

[Robo61]

14 minutes ago, kenny said:

Its hard to know what I think. I assume much of this figure will include summer workers in Spain and France rather than full time movement, it will also include those that retire abroad to a spanish apartment etc?

 

Compared to the birth rate then yes it sounds high but its all about context.

 

Assuming that I am totally wrong and we have a strong ethic in this country of working abroad in countries that do not work in English, then I am still not sure what is stopping people except the issue of applying for a Visa.

Simply as others have already siad iit is not just a case of filling a Visa application.  Any prospective employer would have to prove that they cannot find anyone to do that job wothin the EU.  You could of course say exactly the same of an EU citizen coming here for work,  just fill out a Visa application and you can come,  but as most of us know that is not the reality.

[kenny]

5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

This has been answered, and not just by me. It really isn't the case that you 'just apply for a visa', however it may look with a quick Google search. 

I bow down to superior knowledge.

 

It seems very odd that a country would prevent skilled workers entering from a country that educates people from around the world at a time of such skill shortages.

 

Quote

Simply as others have already siad iit is not just a case of filling a Visa application.  Any prospective employer would have to prove that they cannot find anyone to do that job wothin the EU.  You could of course say exactly the same of an EU citizen coming here for work,  just fill out a Visa application and you can come,  but as most of us know that is not the reality.

Thankfully, in our industry we are still finding that there are plenty of candidates coming in from the EU. I suppose our booming economy is helping and this may change once it slows down. We are also noticing more applicants from non-EU countries than before Brexit and the majority are being educated in UK before applying for work.

[Sampson]

4 minutes ago, kenny said:

I bow down to superior knowledge.

 

It seems very odd that a country would prevent skilled workers entering from a country that educates people from around the world at a time of such skill shortages.

 

Thankfully, in our industry we are still finding that there are plenty of candidates coming in from the EU. I suppose our booming economy is helping and this may change once it slows down. We are also noticing more applicants from non-EU countries than before Brexit and the majority are being educated in UK before applying for work.

And non-British or Irish people who can afford to study in the UK is probably less than 1% so you're talking about the privileged few with rich families here. So it's unlikely something which even a well off middle-class person can afford to do.

EU students previously paid what UK and Irish students paid and could get a student loan to cover it - now they have to pay international fees, which are about 3 times that of fees for UK/Irish citizens and close to £30k a year, they also have to prove they have at least £10k in their bank for support every year when they come here, which is not the case for UK or Irish citizens and wasn't for EU citizens before Brexit.

Most universities make their money from international student fees because they're so high.

[kenny]

13 minutes ago, Sampson said:

And non-British or Irish people who can afford to study in the UK is probably less than 1% so you're talking about the privileged few with rich families here. So it's unlikely something which even a well off middle-class person can afford to do.

EU students previously paid what UK and Irish students paid and could get a student loan to cover it - now they have to pay international fees, which are about 3 times that of fees for UK/Irish citizens and close to £30k a year, they also have to prove they have at least £10k in their bank for support every year when they come here, which is not the case for UK or Irish citizens and wasn't for EU citizens before Brexit.

Most universities make their money from international student fees because they're so high.

Makes sense. We are getting more and more foreign graduates apply from UK universities and they are mostly non-EU. I think many countries subsidy foreign study which probably helps with this.

 

Most of our EU applications are from people that studied in their home country then come here for work. Typically these are countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy or Portugal rather than the standard healthier economies like Germany, France etc.

[danny.]

25 minutes ago, kenny said:

I bow down to superior knowledge.

 

It seems very odd that a country would prevent skilled workers entering from a country that educates people from around the world at a time of such skill shortages.

 

Thankfully, in our industry we are still finding that there are plenty of candidates coming in from the EU. I suppose our booming economy is helping and this may change once it slows down. We are also noticing more applicants from non-EU countries than before Brexit and the majority are being educated in UK before applying for work.

And what if you don’t have that particular skill? It used to be no problem, now our opportunities have been taken away. Why is that a good thing?

[FoxesDeb]

31 minutes ago, kenny said:

I bow down to superior knowledge.

 

It seems very odd that a country would prevent skilled workers entering from a country that educates people from around the world at a time of such skill shortages.

 

Thankfully, in our industry we are still finding that there are plenty of candidates coming in from the EU. I suppose our booming economy is helping and this may change once it slows down. We are also noticing more applicants from non-EU countries than before Brexit and the majority are being educated in UK before applying for work.

I don't doubt that to be the case. Unfortunately since Brexit these opportunities are no longer reciprocal so while it may be great for EU citizens wishing to move to the UK, the loss of FOM means that the same can't be said for Brits wishing to emigrate to the EU. Ironic really. 

[kenny]

3 minutes ago, danny. said:

And what if you don’t have that particular skill? It used to be no problem, now our opportunities have been taken away. Why is that a good thing?

Its not a good thing, if I have said so then I apologise for causing confusion.

 

I am just surprised that a country would refuse people it openly wants and needs.

[Sampson]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

Its not a good thing, if I have said so then I apologise for causing confusion.

 

I am just surprised that a country would refuse people it openly wants and needs.

It won't refuse them, but it's not easy to prove that you can't find anyone else from a pool of around 400,000,000 people, plus all the people outside the EU with EU passports.

Even then - why would a German company pick a British person over say a Turkish person, when there is a bigger Turkish immigrant population and Turkish people have a better history of speaking and learning the German language, so it's likely the Turkish person will integrate better? You're now competing with the other 7,500,000,000 people and British people have a notoriously poor reputation at learning languages and integrating to other countries' societies.