Not The Politics Thread.

[kenny]

9 minutes ago, Sampson said:

It won't refuse them, but it's not easy to prove that you can't find anyone else from a pool of around 400,000,000 people, plus all the people outside the EU with EU passports.

Even then - why would a German company pick a British person over say a Turkish person, when there is a bigger Turkish immigrant population and Turkish people have a better history of speaking and learning the German language, so it's likely the Turkish person will integrate better? You're now competing with the other 7,500,000,000 people and British people have a notoriously poor reputation at learning languages and integrating to other countries' societies.

I think we agree. The second paragraph is no different before or after brexit.

[danny.]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

I think we agree. The second paragraph is no different before or after brexit.

What? 

[kenny]

10 minutes ago, danny. said:

What? 

I'm not sure what to say? My point has been that British people don't tend to settle well in countries that do not speak English and Sampson makes this point too.

[Sampson]

13 minutes ago, kenny said:

I think we agree. The second paragraph is no different before or after brexit.

We dont agree at all. You're trying to make it sound much easier than it still is.

 

Yes it is very very different, because companies didn't have to go through the lengthy red tape process of a countries immigration laws and so would hire EU people, 

 

There is plenty of jobs which can be done while learning a language which companies won't go through lengthy red tape to do. You're not going to be able to get a part time job in a warehouse or bar or become now after finishing your studies which you're no longer able to afford to do anyway.

 

Most British people who moved to France pre -Brexit didn't do so by already speaking fluent French and having 10 years experience in mechanical engineering. 

 

It's easier in France to hire a non-French speaking EU lorry driver with a years experience for example from within the EU than it is to hire a French speaking lorry driver with 10 years experience from outside the EU.

 

If it gets to the point where you need a non-EU workers then you're competing against people from all round the world, many of whom are likely already fluent in the language and may have lived in the country before so you've got a way, way higher bar of competition.

Edited 21 January 2022 by Sampson

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

While we are on the subject of FOM, or the loss of it, it's worth noting that there are thousands of second home owners now unable to use said homes for the period of time they enjoyed pre Brexit.

 

There will also be thousands of people who had plans to retire to the EU in the future, but can now no longer afford to given the visa income requirements since January 2021. People who already own property in the country they planned to retire to don't meet the new income requirements so are having to sell up.

 

As an emigrant I no longer order anything from the UK due to the import tax. All my online shopping is now done within the EU, whereas pre Brexit it would have come from the UK. Given that there are over a million of us just in Spain doing the same, that's probably quite a large amount of retail lost. 

 

 

Forgive me if I’ve got this wrong Deb, but I thought you were pro Brexit? Perhaps I’ve got you confused with someone else. Anyway, if you were, you seem a little more sceptical now?

[The whole world smiles]

2 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Forgive me if I’ve got this wrong Deb, but I thought you were pro Brexit? Perhaps I’ve got you confused with someone else. Anyway, if you were, you seem a little more sceptical now?

Difficult to find too much sympathy for ex pats living in Spain who were pro Brexit!

[Vacamion]

 

There have been a few posts in the last couple of pages saying that Brits don't learn languages.

 

Firstly, speak for yourselves, I can speak loads of European languages and it's piss easy, so pull your socks up the rest of you. 

 

Also, machine translation isn't flawless but we currently have access to language and translation resources in the palms of our hands that our forebears could only dream of.

 

Lastly, English is, more than ever, the main game in town as the international language. 

 

If a Swede meets a Hungarian in Berlin they are likely to reach for English as a means of communication. 

 

I've noticed in trips to Europe that this has accelerated noticeably over the last 30 years. 

 

You used to have to reach for French or German or Russian in some parts of Eastern Europe.  Not any more.

 

If it weren't for the Brexit decision in 2016 and the resultant restrictions, you would say that coming out of the Pandemic,  there's never been a better time for native English speakers to head to Europe for work.

 

In fact, if you are Irish, you are probably saying that right now.  More so because of the UK's decision in 2016.

 

We really kicked ourselves hard in the testes, didn't we?  

 

[weller54]

5 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

Difficult to find too much sympathy for ex pats living in Spain who were pro Brexit!

Absolutely!!!

What would be the benefits for them?

[FoxesDeb]

6 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Forgive me if I’ve got this wrong Deb, but I thought you were pro Brexit? Perhaps I’ve got you confused with someone else. Anyway, if you were, you seem a little more sceptical now?

No you're not wrong at all. I was indeed pro Brexit at the time, but I wouldn't vote the same way now if I was given the opportunity. 

 

While I still believe there are benefits for the UK to be out of the EU, I no longer believe they outweigh the benefits of remaining. I, and I dare say many others, didn't understand the full implications of leaving, many of which are only really coming to light since. 

 

[FoxesDeb]

8 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

Difficult to find too much sympathy for ex pats living in Spain who were pro Brexit!

I don't need sympathy, I'm already here, and moved since Brexit. I agree those who were here but voted to leave and have now found themselves in dire straits do not deserve any sympathy, they have come unstuck because they were here but living 'under the radar', and thought that leaving the EU somehow wouldn't apply to them... 

[WigstonWanderer]

4 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

No you're not wrong at all. I was indeed pro Brexit at the time, but I wouldn't vote the same way now if I was given the opportunity. 

 

While I still believe there are benefits for the UK to be out of the EU, I no longer believe they outweigh the benefits of remaining. I, and I dare say many others, didn't understand the full implications of leaving, many of which are only really coming to light since. 

 

Very commendable that you have weighed the pros and cons and admit to changing your mind somewhat. It’s so rare now. People seem to adopt a position, then defend it to the death despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

[StanSP]

 

 

[Voll Blau]

11 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Very commendable that you have weighed the pros and cons and admit to changing your mind somewhat. It’s so rare now. People seem to adopt a position, then defend it to the death despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

This is another ill of the social media age, I feel. People have become so used to putting their views in writing and "on the record" that they're now terrified of changing them in case dullards online end up giving them grief or branding them hyprocrites or whatever.

[kenny]

37 minutes ago, Sampson said:

We dont agree at all. You're trying to make it sound much easier than it still is.

 

Yes it is very very different, because companies didn't have to go through the lengthy red tape process of a countries immigration laws and so would hire EU people, 

 

There is plenty of jobs which can be done while learning a language which companies won't go through lengthy red tape to do. You're not going to be able to get a part time job in a warehouse or bar or become now after finishing your studies which you're no longer able to afford to do anyway.

 

Most British people who moved to France pre -Brexit didn't do so by already speaking fluent French and having 10 years experience in mechanical engineering. 

 

It's easier in France to hire a non-French speaking EU lorry driver with a years experience for example from within the EU than it is to hire a French speaking lorry driver with 10 years experience from outside the EU.

 

If it gets to the point where you need a non-EU workers then you're competing against people from all round the world, many of whom are likely already fluent in the language and may have lived in the country before so you've got a way, way higher bar of competition.

I don't disagree with any of this?

 

Ref the bold part, it doesn't change whether British people adapt to non-english speaking countries well or not. 

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

This is another ill of the social media age, I feel. People have become so used to putting their views in writing and "on the record" that they're now terrified of changing them in case dullards online end up giving them grief or branding them hyprocrites or whatever.

Everybody can be a hypocrite and it’s ok to have views that conflict or change over time.

I know many of mine do.

 

[Voll Blau]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Everybody can be a hypocrite and it’s ok to have views that conflict or change over time.

I know many of mine do.

 

The sooner in life you realise that, the more content you end up I reckon.

[Sampson]

52 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

There have been a few posts in the last couple of pages saying that Brits don't learn languages.

 

Firstly, speak for yourselves, I can speak loads of European languages and it's piss easy, so pull your socks up the rest of you. 

 

Also, machine translation isn't flawless but we currently have access to language and translation resources in the palms of our hands that our forebears could only dream of.

 

Lastly, English is, more than ever, the main game in town as the international language. 

 

If a Swede meets a Hungarian in Berlin they are likely to reach for English as a means of communication. 

 

I've noticed in trips to Europe that this has accelerated noticeably over the last 30 years. 

 

You used to have to reach for French or German or Russian in some parts of Eastern Europe.  Not any more.

 

If it weren't for the Brexit decision in 2016 and the resultant restrictions, you would say that coming out of the Pandemic,  there's never been a better time for native English speakers to head to Europe for work.

 

In fact, if you are Irish, you are probably saying that right now.  More so because of the UK's decision in 2016.

 

We really kicked ourselves hard in the testes, didn't we?  

 

I agree with you.

But on the highlighted point I would say, once you leave the EU then this becomes a bad thing for British people applying to work abroad though, not a good thing.

If everyone speaks English then speaking English becomes a redundant skill. There's no point putting that you speak English on your CV if you're applying for jobs in Frankfurt or Amsterdam where everyone speaks perfect English as a 2nd language anyway, it's not a skill any company will have trouble getting people in for from either the EU or outside. 

If you're applying to a job in Berlin against people from China, Turkey, India, Mexico, Brazil and everywhere else in the world - many of them are going to speak English nowadays too, plus their own language. Which is always going to be an advantage over someone who just speaks English, even if it's not German. Speaking 2 languages is always going to give you big advantages in a job application and someone speaking English and Mandarin or English and Portuguese is going to have a big advantage to someone who just speaks English when applying for a job. Plus there are going to much more likely to award non-EU jobs to people who speak more niche languages as it's a more specialised skill. 

The fact English is the main international language means it is the least specialised and the least likely to land you a job which can't be filled by a non-EU citizen and also means if a job is in English you're going to have the most competition against you while applying, many of whom will be from people who speak other languages as well.

Edited 21 January 2022 by Sampson

[BKLFox]

How different is getting a job in the EU now to getting a job in Australia as a sponsor in Oz also has to prove that the position can't be filled by a national 1st, right?
Australia is also the #1 country Brits will emigrate to & they are not put off by this, if you want that job & your the right candidate for that job i'm sure you'll get that job where ever it is.

@kenny would seem correct in the assumption that, British people don't tend to settle well in countries that do not speak English, if we looked at the UN records of immigration 6 of the top 10 listed countries Brits emigrate to speak English as their 1st language & 5 of those are in the top 6 countries on the list, only Spain splits them coming in in 4th.

EU countries tend to have the jump on UK with languages as English is a mandatory subject in a vast amount of the countries i believe.
I think it would be a little churlish to say its Brit arrogance/ignorance call it what you will because there will be a vast amount of Brits that do speak a 2nd or multiple languages & certainly those that are currently living in the EU with what i'd call a "professional" job will be fluent in that language.
I'd also imagine there are vast amounts of French, German, Italian, Polish etc that can't speak English or only pigeon English but visit or live in the UK.

Can we still do a National Lampoons European style vacation visiting multiple countries by air or road or has Brexit put a stop to this?

Brexit does seem to have put to bed the openness of retiring to these EU countries which historically places like Spain & France were mainly used for, but who knows in the future we are in day 1 of Brexit, maybe once those at the top on both sides of the water have stopped the one-upmanship & start acting like grown ups things will be a little more transparent on that side of things again.


 

[Dahnsouff]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

This is another ill of the social media age, I feel. People have become so used to putting their views in writing and "on the record" that they're now terrified of changing them in case dullards online end up giving them grief or branding them hyprocrites or whatever.

Quite so. The day we must  cease being wrong is the day we stop communicating, it is a fact of life and being able to change/admit you were wrong is natural and healthy surely.

Edited 21 January 2022 by Dahnsouff

[bovril]

I remember having a conversation with a Brexit voter shortly after the referendum where I pointed out if we ended FoM then we wouldn't be able to get jobs as easily in the EU and that Brits would be essentially be behind Romanians in the queue. They laughed and said something like "I'm sure the Germans and Spanish will still take us over the Romanians".

 

It's only half the story that Brexit voters didn't appreciate FoM, many of them also didn't think it'd end for us. They found it hard to believe not only that a young Romanian or Pole will be as well (if not better) educated than a young Brit, but also that other EU countries wouldn't make it as easy as possible for us after we left. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

No you're not wrong at all. I was indeed pro Brexit at the time, but I wouldn't vote the same way now if I was given the opportunity. 

 

While I still believe there are benefits for the UK to be out of the EU, I no longer believe they outweigh the benefits of remaining. I, and I dare say many others, didn't understand the full implications of leaving, many of which are only really coming to light since. 

 

This is quite a common opinion amongst people who were in favour of leaving. 
 

The issue is not that Brexit in itself is bad and horrible. It’s that it was done wrong. The referendum should’ve led to serious debate on how the UK would leave and a plan to do so ten years from that discussion. In fact, before the referendum, Mr Cameron should’ve had in place a contingency plan in case he lost the vote. 
 

You don’t just run a referendum on such a controversial issue if your Govt are not prepared. 
 

Brexit is more of a shit show then it needed to be because it was done like a secondary school assembly vote as to whether chicken nuggets should be served on Thursday or Friday. The lack of preparation for the constitutional and logistical upheaval is again example of leaders failing us. 
 

I was vote remain by the way but Brexit will work for next generation when it should’ve had checks to allow it to work for this one. 

[bovril]

Just now, Mickyblueeyes said:

This is quite a common opinion amongst people who were in favour of leaving. 
 

The issue is not that Brexit in itself is bad and horrible. It’s that it was done wrong. The referendum should’ve led to serious debate on how the UK would leave and a plan to do so ten years from that discussion. In fact, before the referendum, Mr Cameron should’ve had in place a contingency plan in case he lost the vote. 
 

You don’t just run a referendum on such a controversial issue if your Govt are not prepared. 
 

Brexit is more of a shit show then it needed to be because it was done like a secondary school assembly vote as to whether chicken nuggets should be served on Thursday or Friday. The lack of preparation for the constitutional and logistical upheaval is again example of leaders failing us. 
 

I was vote remain by the way but Brexit will work for next generation when it should’ve had checks to allow it to work for this one. 

I don't this is a common opinion amongst Brexiters at all. They wanted a quick, hard Brexit and anybody who said this would be bad for the UK was essentially called a traitor and some were sent death threats. 

[Robo61]

3 hours ago, kenny said:

Its not a good thing, if I have said so then I apologise for causing confusion.

 

I am just surprised that a country would refuse people it openly wants and needs.

You mean the like the UK are doing with so called unskilled workers from the EU since Brexit.  

[Spiritwalker]

3 hours ago, weller54 said:

Absolutely!!!

What would be the benefits for them?

Similar to those from Cornwall and the farmers who overwhelmingly voted to leave.

[Robo61]

3 hours ago, kenny said:

I think we agree. The second paragraph is no different before or after brexit.

Yes it is,  pre Brexit UK citizens were not competing for German with those from outside the EU.