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Buce

Not The Politics Thread.

By Buce, in General Chat

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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Brevity - not one of my stronger points. 

 

lol 

 

No, me neither.....but then the world isn't simple, is it?

 

10 minutes ago, Line-X said:

 

Understand this is not to do with the many allegations of pedophilia which were unsubstantiated and neither innocence or guilt established due to the absence of evidence. 

 

He will be remembered for the decimalisation of the UK currency and steering the country into the Common Market, but his aloof and enigmatic leadership style bred a contemptuous rank of tory indiscipline and I would suggest, ushered in the unscrupulous era of sleaze that we have come to associate with the party. As Britain currently grapples with soaring utility prices and an energy supply crisis, Kwasi Kwarteng derisorily recently referred to Heath's administration in pledging that there's 'no question of the lights going out'. Because actually - that's what really happened during his watch. 

 

His first term is best remembered today for "stagflation", three-day working weeks, an increasingly precarious Union, in party dissent, the 'Winter of Discontent' and regular declarations of a state of emergencies. Ushering the UK into European Economic Community in 1973 came at huge cost and concessions. For example, membership of the EEC was contingent upon equal access to fishing waters. Norway were also in the process of applying at the time and their fisheries minister resigned in protest at the request, whilst the Norwegians ultimately voted against joining the EU because of this. Heath was advised that such a move could lead to mass redundancies - particularly amongst the Scottish fishing industry, but the decision was taken to go ahead as it was believed the wider benefits of membership would outweigh the negatives for the fishing community - and actually, out of vanity and stubborn pride. It resulted in half of them losing their jobs and much as Thatcher was remembered for sacrificing and abandoning the mining communities, his name is still a byword for betrayal in the fishing industry. The UK agreed to a policy that was so detrimental to her interests because of Heath's opportunism, dogged determination for talks to succeed meaning that he was prepared to pay any price for accession. And he did.

 

In spite of this, like Boris Johnson, his underlying political convictions were weak, superficial and buckled when challenged. Promises of lavish spending failed to materialise, unsettled the backbenchers alongside the directionless leadership, and when fiscal constraints inevitably forced the treasury to tighten its purse strings, any gains were rapidly reversed together with any hope of unity in the party. Moreover, much like today, the ideological vacuum leaves a yawning chasm which has rapidly been populated by the imbalance of organised leftist politics. A deteriorating domestic situation was compounded by a European agenda which haunted the party up until the 2016 referendum and beyond. People voted for the Conservatives in the 2019 election with the assured pledge that they would be a safe choice to chart Britain through the uncertain stormy socioeconomic and political waters of separation from the EU, yet the reality is uncomfortably reminiscent to that of the Heath premiership. In the absence of strong convictions, he could not instill confidence from his colleagues and his voters nor inspire a vision which could carry them through uncertainty, and the country was severely punished for it.

 

Did he lie to parliament? Unlike Johnson, not directly, but he grew very wealthy through insider deals that favoured privileged investors at the expense of public shareholders. As an MP, he subsequently enjoyed fees, expenses and gifts on top of his parliamentary salary yet made no mention of the jobs in the latest Commons Register, despite the requirement for politicians to disclose any "remunerated employment" outside Parliament. You could argue that this is hard wired in the DNA of any card carrying tory - but actually, for every self-serving Geoffrey Cox, Douglas Moss or Jacob Rees-Mogg there is encouragingly, one Mark Harper. 

 

The parallels are clear. Heath's premiership was one of the most immoral, traumatic and controversial in recent political history. For both the current PM and Edward Heath, the arguments that the climate was too inclement, or that an alternative to the U-turns was not available, cannot withstand serious analysis. In spite of his nautical posturing, like today, Heath's premiership was a dishonest rudderless ship, characterised by the threat of mutiny and scuppered policies.  

 

Police enquiries? - again, unlike Johnson, he wasn't around to answer to the Met, but had he been then he would have been interviewed under caution in relation to seven out of forty two allegations. 

 

Like you, I've no idea whether there was any substance to the paedophilia allegations against Heath. I don't even remember hearing allegations of financial corruption and insider dealing, so cannot comment on that either.

I was aware of his reputation for poor personal skills and aloofness - and that he was generally rated to have been an ineffective PM, though that's a bit different to being "duplicitous and conniving" or "morally corrupt, cynical, dishonest and utterly incompetent" (though he may have been that, too - I have limited historical knowledge of his govt). Several more recent PMs could be described as "pretty ineffective" without those other adjectives applying, as they do to Johnson.

 

Heath's failed attempt to take on the NUM is maybe an example of his ineffective leadership - seeking to confront them, but then backing down as he hadn't planned the confrontation strategically - a lesson that Thatcher learned from.

 

Your condemnation of his negotiation of EEC entry is controversial. I lack the knowledge to say whether he could have negotiated better terms, but MacMillan had earlier failed to negotiate entry at all, being blocked by De Gaulle, I believe. There are also plenty of people (myself included) who would argue that EEC (later EU) membership was beneficial overall, whatever its flaws.....but I'm disinclined to re-open the Brexit can of worms! If fishermen loathe Heath, I imagine they'll soon be burning effigies of Johnson, too, as he seems to have sold them up the river in his Brexit deal.

 

I was aware of the 70s being a turbulent time economically and socially, but I wonder how much of that can be placed at Heath's door, or at Wilson/Callaghan's door, for that matter - and the Winter of Discontent was under Callaghan, not Heath. I do remember the lights going out under Heath, though - the 3-day week, power cuts and all that (quite exciting as a boy to have candles, not lights in the evening!). Many of the economic problems of the 70s could be largely attributed to a combination of specific external factors like the OPEC oil crises and to longer-term structural issues like the ending of 30 years of high growth triggered by post-WW2 reconstruction, not unique to the UK, and other structural issues specific to the UK - the loss of empire, long-term under-investment & lack of R&D, a more class-riven society than most equivalent nations, management-union relations based on conflict & unmoderated self-interest, poor educational standards etc.

 

Likewise, there was mayhem in N. Ireland during Heath's govt, but that had been a long time in the making and "The Troubles" had started before he became PM, even if they got worse and he failed to sort the problem out (a criticism that can be made of every subsequent PM through to Blair - though Major did some of the groundwork for Blair's success). Let's hope the unraveling of peace in N. Ireland isn't another charge that can be laid at Johnson's door in a year or two. He's certainly jeopardised it... now where's that video of him telling the Ulster Unionists that, under Brexit, there would be no checks on goods between GB and NI, before he went ahead and signed up to such checks to "get Brexit done" and to get himself into No. 10. Utterly evil man.

 

In short, I'm inclined to see Heath as a poor PM, but not one as damaging as Johnson. I do admit, though, that there are some elements that I'm under-informed about. If he was engaged in serious financial corruption or paedophilia then I'd certainly see your argument for equivalence.

 

Yours sincerely, from one gasbag to another! :D

 

 

 

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danny.

danny.

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, LVocey said:

Maybe someone more knowledgable than me can help....but why are the government raising NI to then give out quite a blanket wide state support with the Council Tax reduction & £200 energy loan.

 

Wouldn't it be better to just raise universal credit back up, cancel the NI rise & cut VAT on fuel?

The rise in NI is dressed as a social care tax so they can say it's to look after the elderly, which sounds better than saying they didn't want to not give tax cuts to rich bankers.

 

The £200 loan is that, a loan, so they aren't giving anything away. You have to pay it back, it's pretty pointless for many people.

They have put measures like these in so that Johnson can repeat soundbites about how they "had the largest package of support" or some kind of grandiose claim that he's made up next time he's asked to resign or held to account over something. It's important for the Tory marketing machine to have soundbites that they can shout out as deflection at PMQs and other "debates". It doesn't have to be anything meaningful, in fact it is often something completely fictional, like 40 new hospitals, or saying the UK has the highest growth in the G7. Johnson can make up anything he wants, because no-one is allowed to call him out on it.

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RoboFox

RoboFox

Posted
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Line-X said:

 

I know it's not the focus of the video, but the "more people in employment" bollocks again? How many times now? Why has he not been pulled up on it? 

 

It's just not true.

 

He's repeatedly quoted the number of people solely on company payroll, and excludes the self-employed amongst others. The ONS, which includes all people in paid work in the UK, shows the total number of people in employment, including the self-employed, is actually about 600,000 lower than pre-pandemic levels.

 

STOP LYING YOU SACK OF SHIT.

 

Edited by RoboFox
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danny.

danny.

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

I know it's not the focus of the video, but the "more people in employment" bollocks again? How many times now? Why has he not been pulled up on it? 

 

It's just not true.

 

He's repeatedly quoted the number of people solely on company payroll, and excludes the self-employed amongst others. The ONS, which includes all people in paid work in the UK, shows the total number of people in employment, including the self-employed, is actually about 600,000 lower than pre-pandemic levels.

 

STOP LYING YOU SACK OF SHIT.

 

MPs are not allowed to call out lies in parliament. If they do, they are thrown out of the session.

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Carl the Llama

Carl the Llama

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

I know it's not the focus of the video, but the "more people in employment" bollocks again? How many times now? Why has he not been pulled up on it? 

 

It's just not true.

 

He's repeatedly quoted the number of people on company payroll, and excludes the self-employed amongst others. The ONS, which includes all people in paid work in the UK, shows the total number of people in employment, including the self-employed, is actually about 600,000 lower than pre-pandemic levels.

 

STOP LYING YOU SACK OF SHIT.

One man's false statistic is another man's 'very stuff of political discourse'

 

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Strokes

Strokes

Posted
Posted

The national insurance rise won’t really affect me personally because I run a limited company and only pay the bare minimum in paye NI. The rest of money is taken in dividends. My wife is a nurse, she will get whacked by it, on top of not getting her wage increment because she chose to move from her permanent position to banking in the vaccination hub.

This just highlight’s the unfairness of this tax rise, it’s hitting those that can’t afford it and have probably worked the hardest throughout this pandemic.

 

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Lionator

Lionator

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The national insurance rise won’t really affect me personally because I run a limited company and only pay the bare minimum in paye NI. The rest of money is taken in dividends. My wife is a nurse, she will get whacked by it, on top of not getting her wage increment because she chose to move from her permanent position to banking in the vaccination hub.

This just highlight’s the unfairness of this tax rise, it’s hitting those that can’t afford it and have probably worked the hardest throughout this pandemic.

 

The problem is that the people who will get hardest hit are likely those who would never vote Tory any way. 
 

This does feel like it’s going to hit hard politically though. They have absolutely shafted the working person once again here, literally the day after launching ‘levelling up’. Well they’re levelling everyone down to the worst standards of living since the 70’s. 

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urban.spaceman

urban.spaceman

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Górnik Leicester said:

Incompetence runs deep throughout the Conservative Party.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/levelling-up-plan-copied-wikipedia-michael-gove-b2006757.html

Yesterday I was telling my dad that Nandy's scathing reply reminded me of the time I had to do an essay for RE in Year 8. Because I just had so much contempt for the subject I literally couldn't be arsed to anything so I just copied a few pages from Encarta and printed it off. The teacher's reply was just like Nandy's - IS THIS IT?!

 

Now it turns out that a government minister literally did the same thing.]

 

Mental.

Edited by urban.spaceman
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HighPeakFox

HighPeakFox

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

 

The thing is though, what will change about that system if people just stay at home? It's all very well saying you don't vote because you don't have a real choice in your area, but that "real choice" remains even further from grasp if you don't bother to register your feelings at the ballot box via a protest vote or spoiling your ballot.

 

The more votes recorded (whether for any party or none at all), the more people elected MPs then become accountable to. If you genuinely want a better system then you're not going to get it by just sitting on your settee.

No I agree with you. But I understand how it happens. 

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Leicester_Loyal

Leicester_Loyal

Posted
Posted (edited)

Everything is going up, those on the breadline are gonna be ****ed, it's coming.

 

'From 1 April the equivalent per unit level of the price cap to the nearest pence for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 28p per kWh for electricity customers and 7p per kWh for gas customers'

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/price-cap-increase-ps693-april

 

I currently pay 19p for elec and 3.6p for gas. It's almost doubling for both, shocking.

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RobHawk

RobHawk

Posted
Posted
53 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Everything is going up, those on the breadline are gonna be ****ed, it's coming.

 

'From 1 April the equivalent per unit level of the price cap to the nearest pence for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 28p per kWh for electricity customers and 7p per kWh for gas customers'

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/price-cap-increase-ps693-april

 

I currently pay 19p for elec and 3.6p for gas. It's almost doubling for both, shocking.

I think the cost of living crisis is what's really gonna stick a nail in the Tory coffin. Boris has brought them down to new depths but when people start to realise how much it's costing them and that maybe the Tories aren't as safe on the economy as they make out, I think support could plummet. 

 

Of course there is the pandemic which will always give them a get out of jail free card with some voters, but I don't think that will fly with alot of voters.

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SecretPro

SecretPro

Posted
Posted

WhatsApp message been sent to MPs and now they are all doing a copy and paste on twitter along the lines of "Boris said he would take swift action on changes in downing street and he's doing so tonight. Well done Boris". 

 

The desperation lol

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