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Buce

Not The Politics Thread.

By Buce, in General Chat

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blabyboy

blabyboy

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Some people definitely seem to just want a culturally acceptable topic to be assholes about. I think there's more to it than that. Trans people aren't new but trans visibility is very recent. Growing up I probably couldn't name a single trans person. I had a vague understanding of trans people's existence but my mental image of trans people was based on Monty Python's Life of Brian. 

 

 

I get the feeling many people have a similar mental image. They see this as an issue of men "deciding to be women" or perhaps "wanting to be women". That they can either choose to be John Cleese and rubbish what they clearly see as nonsense, or perhaps they can be like Michael Palin who adopts a kinder more empathetic tone while still being a little confused. There's a not so subtle message going on that the "real" woman played by Sue Jones-Davies is marginalised and ends up having to find a compromise in order to move on the discussion while Eric Idle's "Loretta" humorously says things like "It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them!".

 

In this caricature of a trans person the "trans" person is portrayed as neurotic, selfish and hyper sensitive. They dominate the discussion with demands for rights that have no basis in reality. They are completely oblivious to how they are displacing the cis woman in the discussion. They swap between calling themselves male and female giving the impression their gender identity is shallow attention seeking rather than a genuine reflection of who they are. They never offer solutions, instead they expect other people to accommodate them.   

 

This is a world away from the trans people I know who are very sure of who they are and simply want to go about their lives without harassment and with the same rights as everyone else. The majority of trans people I've spoken to do not say they wish they were born cis. They wouldn't change who they are and they would never claim their experiences as trans men or trans women are identical to those of cis men or cis women. This is in contrast to the portrayal of trans people as being in conflict with their own bodies. Most have a desire to seek cosmetic surgery at some point or "gender reassignment surgery", yet they tell me they still love their bodies. 

 

So perhaps a lot of people still have a mental image of a "Loretta" rather than knowing real people who aside from their gender identity are simply people like the rest of us. I don't know what I'd have thought about trans rights if it had become an "issue" 15 years ago when I was completely ignorant. I'd like to think I'd have tested my prejudices before firmly backing any position. 

 

I'll add that while the clip hasn't aged particularly well, it's a perfectly valid piece of satire. It's just unfortunate they chose to caricature a trans identity. I'd actually argue that your Rowling's and Forstater's are playing "Loretta", using their middle class privilege to dominate the discourse on women's rights over a total non-issue.  

 

Reading over this debate, i think we need a third sex category - it's the only way to satisfy the competing definitions of the cis and trans communities along with the scientific definitions.

 

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blabyboy

blabyboy

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

We’ve got so many dodgy cnuts in our House of Commons ain’t we? 

This really annoys me. The media are complicit in hiding a lot of the aforementioned dodgy MPs for their own gain and then having exclusives to expose them when done with them.

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kenny

kenny

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, ealingfox said:

 

Don't worry guys, it wasn't cocaine after all, it was only dandruff!

IMG-20220403-WA0013.jpg

I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, particularly as the papers like to have a pop at politicians.

 

I have just seen the photo. WTF.

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Daggers

Daggers

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, blabyboy said:

This really annoys me. The media are complicit in hiding a lot of the aforementioned dodgy MPs for their own gain and then having exclusives to expose them when done with them.

Eh? You what now? It’s ‘the media’s fault’?

 

Nothing to do with the general level of slavish ignorance in the electorate and addiction to polarised flag waving party politics? Maybe if people demanded better from their representatives and voted for better people we wouldn’t have arses like him in Westminster?

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blabyboy

blabyboy

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Eh? You what now? It’s ‘the media’s fault’?

 

Nothing to do with the general level of slavish ignorance in the electorate and addiction to polarised flag waving party politics? Maybe if people demanded better from their representatives and voted for better people we wouldn’t have arses like him in Westminster?

No. Please reread what i said. They are _complicit_. Come back and comment when you understand what that means.

 

To respond to your comment, that is another element of the problem. And your second sentence, gets to the nub of the problem, a lot of people think he is the better representative.

 

Scary.

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foxile5

foxile5

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

Don't worry guys, it wasn't cocaine after all, it was only dandruff!

IMG-20220403-WA0013.jpg

It happens because you let it. 

 

The public didn't really kick off at eye test so why should they be bothered by dandruff piles? 

 

**** me we're such a mess. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

I've never got why the transgender issue was lumped in with LGB tbh, they're so different.

Allow me to present a counterargument from part of the "L" community From Aus. Anecdotal, but hey.

 

"One day it will sink in for people that for elder gays - we've been through this before. I've been called a social contagion, mentally ill, a pervert, and a predator. I grew up in a time when people feared me, I lost jobs because my employer had the legal right to fire me (pre-2013, the law only changed 9 years ago). I grew up with researchers trying to find the "Gay Gene" for **** sake. The One True Cause Of Being A Homo.
I really don't think people fully understand how bad it was 20 - 30 years ago."
 
I think that the portrayal of the gay and lesbian and bi community in media a few decades ago, snapshot as it is, bears this out too.
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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Allow me to present a counterargument from part of the "L" community From Aus. Anecdotal, but hey.

 

"One day it will sink in for people that for elder gays - we've been through this before. I've been called a social contagion, mentally ill, a pervert, and a predator. I grew up in a time when people feared me, I lost jobs because my employer had the legal right to fire me (pre-2013, the law only changed 9 years ago). I grew up with researchers trying to find the "Gay Gene" for **** sake. The One True Cause Of Being A Homo.
I really don't think people fully understand how bad it was 20 - 30 years ago."
 
I think that the portrayal of the gay and lesbian and bi community in media a few decades ago, snapshot as it is, bears this out too.

Is anyone portraying Trans people like this though?  I see a lot of activists demanding things and calling everyone who questions their orthodoxy a TERF, but I don't see anyone really being very anti trans.

I see a lot of women very concerned about losing hard won rights.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Is anyone portraying Trans people like this though?  I see a lot of activists demanding things and calling everyone who questions their orthodoxy a TERF, but I don't see anyone really being very anti trans.

I see a lot of women very concerned about losing hard won rights.

Take a look back through some threads here and you'll see people portraying trans people as exactly that. Particularly the "mentally ill" part.

 

If you want me to find specific examples I can do so.

 

Edit: To say nothing of the ridicule and discrimination (both institutionalised and informal) that they face in the wider world.

 

 

Edited by leicsmac
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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Take a look back through some threads here and you'll see people portraying trans people as exactly that. Particularly the "mentally ill" part.

 

If you want me to find specific examples I can do so.

 

Edit: To say nothing of the ridicule and discrimination (both institutionalised and informal) that they face in the wider world.

 

 

I do think a lot of this is down to the utter ridiculousness of the argument that we should accept anyone who says so as Trans.  It makes no sense whatsoever, and devalues the experience of those who truly suffer from body dysmorphia.  If you want to have a beard and like dressing in women's clothing fine, but you are a non conforming man, not a woman. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I do think a lot of this is down to the utter ridiculousness of the argument that we should accept anyone who says so as Trans.  It makes no sense whatsoever, and devalues the experience of those who truly suffer from body dysmorphia.  If you want to have a beard and like dressing in women's clothing fine, but you are a non conforming man, not a woman. 

With respect, that wasn't the question asked and feels like moving the goalposts.

 

Additionally, I'm not sure how good a look allowing the entire trans community to suffer from discrimination simply because it is perceived that some activists are going too far is.

 

NB. And with all due respect again, given your past comments regarding trans women I'm not entirely sure that you really care about people with "genuine" body dysmorphia anyway, so perhaps it might be best to not use them as a shield.

 

Edited by leicsmac
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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

With respect, that wasn't the question asked and feels like moving the goalposts.

Additionally, I'm not sure how good a look allowing the entire trans community to suffer from discrimination simply because it is perceived that some activists are going too far is.

Íts a fair point, and I have no doubt there are many many people in that community who just want to get on with their lives and not be part of this argument.  Unfortunately they have been rather hijacked by nutters.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Íts a fair point, and I have no doubt there are many many people in that community who just want to get on with their lives and not be part of this argument.  Unfortunately they have been rather hijacked by nutters.

I have no doubt that's the way some folks see it. 

 

In that case the priority still should be defending those who do just want to get on with their lives, seeing as the derision for them and discrimination against them, as well as the "nutters", is clear and obvious imo.

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