Not The Politics Thread.

[Fox in the North]

Genuinely, after what we’ve experienced under the Johnson Government, and what we’ve seen from various leaks, how on Earth can Starmer be compared on levels of spineless to Johnson? The incompetence of the Johnson government has just been downright staggering.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

8 hours ago, Facecloth said:

BBC News - Classified Ministry of Defence documents found at bus stop https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57624942

 

What I found intriguing was the documents had info relating to the war ship we just sailed through contested Crimean waters that prompted the Russians to fire warning shots etc - which the government initially claimed didn’t happen.

 

Makes me think this was no accident - they were in a spot where they were always going to be found.

 

Edited 27 June 2021 by DJ Barry Hammond

[foxile5]

57 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

You'd also think if he had passion for the nation he wouldn't be happy to constantly keep screwing it over. I mean someone with passion for the nation wouldn't be happy to see the taxes the public worked hard to raise get pissed up the wall on his watch. Wouldn't have said he's happy to see the bodies of his public pile high.

 

It's all an act, and people lap it up.

Oh I'm in no way a supporter of his. I was passing comment on how people play up his passion for the country as if that's something that shouldn't be expected. 

 

I think the guy is a piece of shit. 

[Facecloth]

13 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Oh I'm in no way a supporter of his. I was passing comment on how people play up his passion for the country as if that's something that shouldn't be expected. 

 

I think the guy is a piece of shit. 

I got that, I was just extending on your post.

Edited 27 June 2021 by Facecloth

[foxile5]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I got that, I was just extending on your post.

Ah good chap. 

[StanSP]

Things you love to see

 

 

 

[Salisbury Fox]

5 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Dont know if you've noticed who's in charge of the country at the minute, but it isn't him. Peoples genuine criticism and concerns of the current governing party are never discussed, because they are always met by some hypothetical scenario that you've dreamed up about how shit the other one might be. Why? Why can't you discuss the performance of Johnson? There might be criticisms of Starmer, and you're free to discuss them, but why are they used to ignore the criticisms of Johnson? And that's where the "But Labour" complaint comes from. You're free to criticise them, but stop using it to dodge talking about the poor performance of the government.

 

Also Labour and Starmer in particular can do no right anyway. If they challenge the government on their mishandling of the pandemic or public funds, they are playing politics with the pandemic, if they hold off, they are weak. And why are people so desperate for him to spell out what he might do in an election three years away, we don't usually expect that from opposition leaders this early in an election cycle, and what would be the point if all drowned out by the current reaction to the pandemic. 

I don’t believe most people who voted conservative would be really surprised that Boris as PM is turning out the way it has, his flaws were widely known after all. Whilst there is likely to be an unwillingness to accept responsibility for putting him there, the other options at the time we’re pretty limited which I suspect validates the views of many. I am pretty sure that this will end badly at some point, but perhaps it’s the volume of attacks and the inherent scepticism built from the fight over brexit that is keeping him safe for now. I don’t see how this can go on forever though.

 

I agree that Starmer is in an impossible position at the moment. However by not providing any sense of what his policies are means many will opt to continue with the status quo despite any flaws in doing so.   Expecting people to change their vote on the sole basis that Labour are under new leadership will only work if there is trust and Starmer always has his work cut out in that regards through being portrayed as the arch ring leader of the remain campaign. I don’t think he is aided by Burnham getting more airtime either and I suspect the main reason that he is reluctant to spell out what his policies are is because he doesn’t want to exacerbate the splits in Labour.

[Dunge]

No doubt in my mind that Starmer would have handled the pandemic better in many ways. Although I do think he would have made the mistake of signing up to the EU vaccines scheme and then seen us be royally shafted and held to ransom by them once the going got tough. I’m not sure whether he would have ploughed money into private vaccine research like the Tories did either, but on that it’s hard to tell.

 

That said, it’s all something of a moot point. He wasn’t leader at the last election when we didn’t know there was a pandemic on the horizon, and by the next election there may not be any new policy to declare for Covid anyway.

Edited 27 June 2021 by Dunge

[WigstonWanderer]

2 hours ago, Dunge said:

No doubt in my mind that Starmer would have handled the pandemic better in many ways. Although I do think he would have made the mistake of signing up to the EU vaccines scheme and then seen us be royally shafted and held to ransom by them once the going got tough. I’m not sure whether he would have ploughed money into private vaccine research like the Tories did either, but on that it’s hard to tell.

 

That said, it’s all something of a moot point. He wasn’t leader at the last election when we didn’t know there was a pandemic on the horizon, and by the next election there may not be any new policy to declare for Covid anyway.

Fair comment

[Kingleicester]

23 hours ago, Legend_in_blue said:

There's more to it than just chucking cash at it.  Govt also chucked a load of cash on garbage PPE, so what?

 

It's the people in the system that make it work.  And the countless volunteers.

You just cannot praise the government can you 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Kingleicester said:

You just cannot praise the government can you 

....is there anything other than the vaccine rollout (important in of itself, yes) from all of this that is praiseworthy on their part?

Edited 28 June 2021 by leicsmac

[BenTheFox]

On 26/06/2021 at 23:07, Bellend Sebastian said:

Remember when he pretended to cry with happiness about the vaccine on Good Morning Britain?

 

Feels like a lifetime ago

Oh yes, it definitely gave off 'Stepdad who knows the child is buried under the patio' vibes. 

[Dunge]

25 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

....is there anything other than the vaccine rollout (important in of itself, yes) from all of this that is praiseworthy on their part?

For a long time, I’ve thought of the government’s job in this to be the Shield and the Sword.

 

The Shield, I’d call things to protect the public and the country while the virus is/was rampaging. I don’t think this has been a complete disaster, because ultimately the NHS didn’t get overwhelmed in the way that we’ve seen in Italy or India - although it got close; but there have undoubtedly been big mistakes made: Boris not being sharp enough on the first wave, letting still-infected patients back to care homes to infect others, not sacking Cummings, Boris definitely not being sharp enough on the second wave, not closing down on travel from India. The Shield has had holes in it.

 

The Sword, I’d call things to actually fight back against the virus, that being scientific research and vaccine implementation. In that, there’s been a lot of success - they’ve backed Oxford and AZ from the start (the company with the biggest vaccine rollout worldwide that the EU have shamefully tried to sue, which is an absolute scandal), and they’ve got the many aspects of the vaccine rollout right too, including keeping things easier and away from confusion and red tape by doing it by age and vulnerability instead of profession (excepting the medical profession). Take-up rates have been fantastic. The Sword has gone very well.

 

It’s quite the Boris way, actually. He always likes to be on the front foot, to the point of often leaving his defences entirely open and hoping the attack will be enough. Maybe not the best way for government to function, but oh for the England football team to play that way.

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, Dunge said:

For a long time, I’ve thought of the government’s job in this to be the Shield and the Sword.

 

The Shield, I’d call things to protect the public and the country while the virus is/was rampaging. I don’t think this has been a complete disaster, because ultimately the NHS didn’t get overwhelmed in the way that we’ve seen in Italy or India - although it got close; but there have undoubtedly been big mistakes made: Boris not being sharp enough on the first wave, letting still-infected patients back to care homes to infect others, not sacking Cummings, Boris definitely not being sharp enough on the second wave, not closing down on travel from India. The Shield has had holes in it.

 

The Sword, I’d call things to actually fight back against the virus, that being scientific research and vaccine implementation. In that, there’s been a lot of success - they’ve backed Oxford and AZ from the start (the company with the biggest vaccine rollout worldwide that the EU have shamefully tried to sue, which is an absolute scandal), and they’ve got the many aspects of the vaccine rollout right too, including keeping things easier and away from confusion and red tape by doing it by age and vulnerability instead of profession (excepting the medical profession). Take-up rates have been fantastic. The Sword has gone very well.

 

It’s quite the Boris way, actually. He always likes to be on the front foot, to the point of often leaving his defences entirely open and hoping the attack will be enough. Maybe not the best way for government to function, but oh for the England football team to play that way.

As of today, the Shield has exactly 128,100 holes in it, yes. Though the NHS wasn't swamped in the way healthcare systems were in other places, that is irrelevant IMO because that sheer number makes the Shield a comparative and absolute failure by pretty much every single metric.

 

The Sword, however, has been very sharp and pretty damn effective. But my point is that it is the only thing about this government response that has been. And nature imposes a high price for both dented shields and dull swords - the next event it decides to throw at us, we might not be so lucky with the former.

[urban.spaceman]

Major incident at Elephant & Castle tube station. Hopefully nothing sinister.

 

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

 

 

[CosbehFox]

49 minutes ago, Dunge said:

It’s quite the Boris way, actually. He always likes to be on the front foot, to the point of often leaving his defences entirely open and hoping the attack will be enough. Maybe not the best way for government to function, but oh for the England football team to play that way.

More like an arrogant cricketer always playing on the front foot, only to be troubled by spin and displaying awful technique in process. 

 

To carry on the analogy with cricket, the vaccine success is bit like hitting a boundary when you are 46 for 7

Edited 28 June 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[Dunge]

13 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

More like an arrogant cricketer always playing on the front foot, only to be troubled by spin and displaying awful technique in process. 

 

To carry on the analogy with cricket, the vaccine success is bit like hitting a boundary when you are 46 for 7

I know this is all about the perception of how the government’s done in the pandemic, and my view of it is that I think both you and @leicsmac are understating the significance of the vaccine production and rollout in all this.

 

I see people condemning them and saying how terrible they’ve been, and while I’d agree with the content of the mistakes they’ve made, I’d probably disagree on the scale and level of condemnation I’d attach to them. Particularly when often I felt I could appreciate the dilemmas they were battling with.

 

P.S. Did you watch me bat yesterday? 

Edited 28 June 2021 by Dunge

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I know this is all about the perception of how the government’s done in the pandemic, and my view of it is that I think both you and @leicsmac are understating the significance of the vaccine production and rollout in all this.

 

I see people condemning them and saying how terrible they’ve been, and while I’d agree with the content of the mistakes they’ve made, I’d probably disagree on the scale and level of condemnation I’d attach to them. Particularly when often I felt I could appreciate the dilemmas they were battling with.

 

P.S. Did you watch me bat yesterday? 

I'm sorry, but for me it is the results, the hats on the ground that are the metric of "success" or "failure" here, and I don't really see how that can be defended or mitigated even with the success of the vaccine rollout - not when comparative data proves it probably could have been avoided and it wasn't a matter of dreadful algebra of necessity.

 

It's entirely possible to suggest that the vaccination program has gone well and no doubt saved many lives, but it is the only thing that has gone right.

[Innovindil]

Just now, leicsmac said:

I'm sorry, but for me it is the results, the hats on the ground that are the metric of "success" or "failure" here, and I don't really see how that can be defended or mitigated even with the success of the vaccine rollout - not when comparative data proves it probably could have been avoided and it wasn't a matter of dreadful algebra of necessity.

 

It's entirely possible to suggest that the vaccination program has gone well and no doubt saved many lives, but it is the only thing that has gone right.

Think that's a bit harsh tbh. Whilst the economic coverage has been spotty in places, for the most part it's been a success and kept hundreds of thousands of people in jobs, including me.

 

At the start of the pandemic the lack of ventilators were being shouted from the rafters, I believe that was solved fairly quickly. Even to the point where we were exporting spares to others who needed them. 

 

I'm sure there are other things that have gone "right", or at least better than people seem to give them credit for, but those 2 are at the top of my head right now. 

[Dunge]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm sorry, but for me it is the results, the hats on the ground that are the metric of "success" or "failure" here, and I don't really see how that can be defended or mitigated even with the success of the vaccine rollout - not when comparative data proves it probably could have been avoided and it wasn't a matter of dreadful algebra of necessity.

 

It's entirely possible to suggest that the vaccination program has gone well and no doubt saved many lives, but it is the only thing that has gone right.

I think it’s the thing where they’ve exceeded expectations. For the rest of it, as can be inferred from @Innovindil, I’d say sometimes met and sometimes fallen short.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Think that's a bit harsh tbh. Whilst the economic coverage has been spotty in places, for the most part it's been a success and kept hundreds of thousands of people in jobs, including me.

 

At the start of the pandemic the lack of ventilators were being shouted from the rafters, I believe that was solved fairly quickly. Even to the point where we were exporting spares to others who needed them. 

 

I'm sure there are other things that have gone "right", or at least better than people seem to give them credit for, but those 2 are at the top of my head right now. 

 

7 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I think it’s the thing where they’ve exceeded expectations. For the rest of it, as can be inferred from @Innovindil, I’d say sometimes met and sometimes fallen short.

 

The economic stuff I can see an argument for, but I'd want to see a comparative look against other places before being sure that was an overall "win" there.

 

The ventilators play into the larger healthcare argument IMO and while that was solved early doors and likely saved quite a few lives, the overall figures still speak for themselves.

 

Overall I'd say it could have gone a fair bit worse (see Modi, Trump and Bolsanaro for examples there), it certainly could have gone a lot better.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

Boris now claiming he was behind hancocks sacking despite saying he supported him yesterday. I thought Hancock resigned?

 

It's hard to work out if anything he says is true.

[rachhere]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

Major incident at Elephant & Castle tube station. Hopefully nothing sinister.

 

 

 

My friend lives in a flat literally opposite the station. I texted to check he was ok fearing he would have been evacuated, but he just replied saying 'oh that's what's going on'. He had smelt the smoke but had just closed his window and got on with work. Anyhow, good sign its under control otherwise I am sure they would have evacuated the surrounding areas. 

[doverfox]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-57636903

This is not acceptable you may not like their message and you nay not want to hear it but a free and fair election must be allowed to take place. Intimidating people out electioneering by any party needs police action.