Not The Politics Thread.

[CosbehFox]

13 hours ago, Koke said:

I know this isn't strictly politics nor is it strictly football. But I've always been baffled by this culture of heavy drinking to the point of idiocy. We've all seen the videos outside Wembley and Trafalgar Square, and it's quite frankly a disgrace. 

 

 

Yep totally agree - High Street, Leicester looks like a war zone most Friday and Saturday nights. 

 

Always felt it changed when the licensing laws were completely ripped up - the ability to drink for hours on end rather than a break in the middle and a finish before going into the next day. 

[Carl the Llama]

Is there any political will to address this issue?  Would a sober country continue to vote for its own ruination at the hands of the tories?

[LVFox]

13 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Is there any political will to address this issue?  Would a sober country continue to vote for its own ruination at the hands of the tories?

Only way I can see is to have a period of ruthless policing, people have no fear of criminal repercussions on the streets.

 

Conservatives won't spend the money on policing, Labour probably would but wouldn't endorse strong enough policing.

[Voll Blau]

 

 

Politicians who tried to jump on the success bandwagon getting their come uppance from the very people they tried to piggyback. YLTSI, as the kids say.

[Unabomber]

Credit Tyrone 

Edited 12 July 2021 by Unabomber

[Corky]

47 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

 

Politicians who tried to jump on the success bandwagon getting their come uppance from the very people they tried to piggyback. YLTSI, as the kids say.

At least one showed their true colours when Rashford missed. 

 

Quite happy to allow sport and politics to mix when they get nice pictures with the lads they no doubt look down on.

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

 

 

Politicians who tried to jump on the success bandwagon getting their come uppance from the very people they tried to piggyback. YLTSI, as the kids say.

I really don’t understand how this is in any way good? How is having a go at someone condemning racism for condemning racist in any way something that should be celebrated? I certainly have no interest in defending Priti Patel, I struggle to recall much redeemable about her public person but is it really so important that we get the social media dopamine hit from ‘owning’ politicians that we must criticise someone for condemning racism.

 

Seems like a classic in the genre of polarisation/‘culture war’ only really being a problem when it’s the other lot doing it. Instead of an olive branch, ‘Hi, do you see why we feel it’s necessary to make a statement and how criticising us for it might not be helpful to this terrible thing that both of us have undoubtedly suffered numerous times’, we get gatekeeping hatefulness.

 

Still it gets the converted excited and that’s what really matters. It’s not even a criticism of Tyrone Mings, more a despair that social media has conned intelligent minds into thinking this is a good approach to anything.

[Lionator]

9 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I really don’t understand how this is in any way good? How is having a go at someone condemning racism for condemning racist in any way something that should be celebrated? I certainly have no interest in defending Priti Patel, I struggle to recall much redeemable about her public person but is it really so important that we get the social media dopamine hit from ‘owning’ politicians that we must criticise someone for condemning racism.

 

Seems like a classic in the genre of polarisation/‘culture war’ only really being a problem when it’s the other lot doing it. Instead of an olive branch, ‘Hi, do you see why we feel it’s necessary to make a statement and how criticising us for it might not be helpful to this terrible thing that both of us have undoubtedly suffered numerous times’, we get gatekeeping hatefulness.

 

Still it gets the converted excited and that’s what really matters. It’s not even a criticism of Tyrone Mings, more a despair that social media has conned intelligent minds into thinking this is a good approach to anything.

The idiotic side of the Tory party are so obsessed with their imaginary culture war that it's actually come back to bite them here. 

[urban.spaceman]

We really do have the most abhorrent people running the country at the minute don’t we? How the **** did we get here and how do we get rid of them?!

[Dunge]

43 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

We really do have the most abhorrent people running the country at the minute don’t we? How the **** did we get here and how do we get rid of them?!

Probably requires a longer answer this, but in short…

 

1a. Because of the political response to the Brexit vote;

1b. Because of the opposition leadership.

2a. By the opposition presenting a positive plan for Brexit Britain instead of looking embarrassed by it;

2b. By the opposition showing the kind of decorum that Marcus Rashford shows, and thereby showing up the Conservative MPs and activists who embarrassed themselves and their party through trying to needle him.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Conservatives have been polling at 41% (or above) since the local elections at the start of May, reaching a high of 46% through DeltaPoll and YouGov.

The last time Labour were in the lead was late January (a 4 point lead, through YouGov oddly enough).

Cons have not dropped below 39% since then. They seem to have a fairly strong core support.

Labour polling 30-35% over the past month (across 22 polls).

Lib Dems registering double figures in 6 of the last 13 polls (since the Chesham & Amersham by election win) so they're making some progress.

 

Latest poll: the first time LD have reached 12% since before the last General Election.

 

 

[NasPb]

11 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

I really don’t understand how this is in any way good? How is having a go at someone condemning racism for condemning racist in any way something that should be celebrated? I certainly have no interest in defending Priti Patel, I struggle to recall much redeemable about her public person but is it really so important that we get the social media dopamine hit from ‘owning’ politicians that we must criticise someone for condemning racism.

 

Seems like a classic in the genre of polarisation/‘culture war’ only really being a problem when it’s the other lot doing it. Instead of an olive branch, ‘Hi, do you see why we feel it’s necessary to make a statement and how criticising us for it might not be helpful to this terrible thing that both of us have undoubtedly suffered numerous times’, we get gatekeeping hatefulness.

 

Still it gets the converted excited and that’s what really matters. It’s not even a criticism of Tyrone Mings, more a despair that social media has conned intelligent minds into thinking this is a good approach to anything.

Disagree. There's no issue in simply saying things as they are. This government not only has denied or tried to lessen the extent to which there is racism in the uk, it actively gives work to racists like mr Johnson himself, just look at his comments on piccanies. Also, the government has purposefully used the topic of taking a knee for political gain by trying to make it something it is not. If you can't walk the walk don't talk the talk. They're disgraceful. 

 

And pritti Patel probably would have deported most of the players grandparents if it were up to her. Windrush

Edited 13 July 2021 by NasPb

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, NasPb said:

Here's where you're wrong. There's no issue in simply saying things as they are. This government not only has denied or tried to lessen the extent to which there is racism in the uk, it actively gives work to racists like mr Johnson himself, just look at his comments on piccanies. Also, the government has purposefully used the topic of taking a knee for political gain by trying to make it something it is not. If you can't walk the walk don't talk the talk. They're disgraceful. 

 

And pritti Patel probably would have deported most of the players grandparents if it were up to her. Windrush

In no course for negotiation or debate or any related discipline would you be taught to essentially tell someone to **** off as any kind of successful tactic, in fact it’d be what you’re told not to do. Particularly when you’re dealing with people that thrive off the outrage.

 

Look fine, if people are more bothered ‘saying it how it is’ and giving the government their comeuppance (only the converted will see it that way which tells you it’s completely pointless) than doing things that are actually helpful to their own cause then fine go ahead. Let’s all stay deep in this black hole of misery where this situation has arisen.
 

We only have to look at Rashford’s conduct over free-school meals for a much better example of how to press and engage these people, being combative but constructive and never personal. It absolutely baffles me that Rashford can be rightly so celebrated for his work and yet there seems to be little interest in taking the lessons from it. Same with Southgate’s superb written piece before the tournament

Edited 13 July 2021 by Kopfkino

[Voll Blau]

10 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

I really don’t understand how this is in any way good? How is having a go at someone condemning racism for condemning racist in any way something that should be celebrated? I certainly have no interest in defending Priti Patel, I struggle to recall much redeemable about her public person but is it really so important that we get the social media dopamine hit from ‘owning’ politicians that we must criticise someone for condemning racism.

 

Seems like a classic in the genre of polarisation/‘culture war’ only really being a problem when it’s the other lot doing it. Instead of an olive branch, ‘Hi, do you see why we feel it’s necessary to make a statement and how criticising us for it might not be helpful to this terrible thing that both of us have undoubtedly suffered numerous times’, we get gatekeeping hatefulness.

 

Still it gets the converted excited and that’s what really matters. It’s not even a criticism of Tyrone Mings, more a despair that social media has conned intelligent minds into thinking this is a good approach to anything.

No, sorry. Not having that one bit. Tyrone Mings is probably about as interested in being a Culture Warrior as Priti Patel is in football. This isn't "gatekeeping hatefulness", it's someone spelling out to one of the country's top-ranking politicians the direct consequences of her actions. He's not phrased his tweet the way he has because he wants the adoration of #FBPE luvvies or whatever, he's done it because he's rightly almightily pissed off that the Home Secretary criticised him and his teammates, then tried to piggyback on their success with that woeful photo op the other night, and is now backed into a corner whereby she has no choice but to condemn the very racists she was defending a few weeks ago.

 

As for what it's achieved? Well, it's all everyone's talking about this morning. It's a timely reminder that it's our collective democratic duty to hold politicians to account for their words and actions. That can only be a good thing.

[Guest Kopfkino]

8 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

No, sorry. Not having that one bit. Tyrone Mings is probably about as interested in being a Culture Warrior as Priti Patel is in football. This isn't "gatekeeping hatefulness", it's someone spelling out to one of the country's top-ranking politicians the direct consequences of her actions. He's not phrased his tweet the way he has because he wants the adoration of #FBPE luvvies or whatever, he's done it because he's rightly almightily pissed off that the Home Secretary criticised him and his teammates, then tried to piggyback on their success with that woeful photo op the other night, and is now backed into a corner whereby she has no choice but to condemn the very racists she was defending a few weeks ago.

 

As for what it's achieved? Well, it's all everyone's talking about this morning. It's a timely reminder that it's our collective democratic duty to hold politicians to account for their words and actions. That can only be a good thing.

It might have got people talking but people who are in one lane will stay in that lane and people who are in another lane will stay in that lane. It makes the square root of **** all difference

 

Seems people might do themselves a favour and remind themselves of Martin Luther King’s 6 key principles and then think how to apply that to the modern social media world. At the end of the day, Priti Patel and Tyrone Mings will both have suffered plenty of racist abuse, there’s a lot to unite them and yet we’re supposed to think that being brash on social media is to be lauded.

 

You can still uphold collective democratic duty in holding politicians to account for their words and actions without telling them they’re not allowed to condemn racism and it has the bonus of being more effective

[Voll Blau]

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

It might have got people talking but people who are in one lane will stay in that lane and people who are in another lane will stay in that lane. It makes the square root of **** all difference

 

Seems people might do themselves a favour and remind themselves of Martin Luther King’s 6 key principles and then think how to apply that to the modern social media world. At the end of the day, Priti Patel and Tyrone Mings will both have suffered plenty of racist abuse, there’s a lot to unite them and yet we’re supposed to think that being brash on social media is to be lauded.

 

You can still uphold collective democratic duty in holding politicians to account for their words and actions without telling them they’re not allowed to condemn racism and it has the bonus of being more effective

So he shouldn't stick up for himself and his teammates because he's not going to convert any racists?

 

As I said, this isn't about being brash on social media. It's about calling out rank hypocrisy from one of the country's highest-ranking politicians. He's not told her she's not allowed to condemn racism either. He's told her her actions are a direct cause of the very thing she's now had to publicly condemn. If she's sincere in her condemnation of the racist abuse then maybe she'll reflect on that?

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

So he shouldn't stick up for himself and his teammates because he's not going to convert any racists?

 

As I said, this isn't about being brash on social media. It's about calling out rank hypocrisy from one of the country's highest-ranking politicians. He's not told her she's not allowed to condemn racism either. He's told her her actions are a direct cause of the very thing she's now had to publicly condemn. If she's sincere in her condemnation of the racist abuse then maybe she'll reflect on that?

I think both sides of this particular debate on this page have a point. There’s nothing wrong with what Tyrone Mings has put; he’s not a politician and I completely sympathise with his frustration at the situation and his desire to defend his friends and teammates. His irritation at the lack of support from Priti Patel over the anti-racist gesture adopted by his fellow footballers is palpable. I fully believe part of the trouble there was (and still is) that taking the knee means different things to different people, and for those who see it as an act of solidarity against racist abuse there can be a great deal of anger against those who are more circumspect because of its other associations. Priti Patel is an over-promoted politician whose moral compass often better resembles a game of spin the bottle, but I think this all needs to be viewed from a bigger picture before she’s condemned absolutely over it.

 

I always think the big problem this government has in this area is that Boris himself is so weak on it. He’s based his success on a “don’t look back, don’t apologise” philosophy, but I’ve always felt he should have done so with some of his much-quoted journalistic pieces, as someone mentioned above - the ones using the words piccaninnies and letterboxes. Having read the context of each of the articles over the years, I didn’t see any racist points being made with the words, but there still should be recognition of their unpleasantness and apology for the offence his language can cause, plus that they give cover to people with actual racist agendas. Which is, to be fair, exactly the kind of thing that Tyrone Mings is complaining about with Priti Patel’s deeds. The Prime Minister should be leading from the front on such an issue. The problem is the hole he’s dug for himself through embarrassment and political manoeuvring on the topic has made it very difficult. Again, I accept the implication of Tyrone Mings’ post that this is not an excuse.

 

Where I think Kopf has a point is that just shouting at people over this may be therapeutic but isn’t actually effective at achieving anything. Last year, Marcus Rashford achieved a lot precisely because he took a different approach. He pointed out a problem that could be fixed. He requested help. When it wasn’t forthcoming, he didn’t complain and instead went to work, putting his money where his mouth was. It was high profile, apolitical and simply kind. He did the right thing, without greater agenda or viewpoint, for the right thing’s sake. He was successful because instead of going to war against people, he exposed them with kindness. He showed them up. He continues to show them up as some Tories’ bitterness over him showed the other night. They were forced to backtrack and apologise, quite possibly by direction from Conservative central office. Unlike Trump and the Republicans, the Tories still care about their reputation. But that reputation isn’t hurt by deflecting angry people on social media. That’s part of why people are still supporting them in the polls, because social media is toxic in so many ways. But their reputation is hurt through disappointment, through being asked for help on a reasonable matter and then seeing whether they offer it.

 

In short: Don’t shout and scream at the Tories. It doesn’t work. Instead, give them the chance to help, and give people the chance to conclude their own disappointment in them if and when they don’t. That works.

[Carl the Llama]

56 minutes ago, Dunge said:

In short: Don’t shout and scream at the Tories. It doesn’t work. Instead, give them the chance to help, and give people the chance to conclude their own disappointment in them if and when they don’t. That works.

How many years of failure to address important social issues before we're allowed to conclude that we're disappointed in the shambles that is the Tory administration?  Because I feel like I've filled my disappointment quota several times over already.

[Facecloth]

1 hour ago, Dunge said:

In short: Don’t shout and scream at the Tories. It doesn’t work. Instead, give them the chance to help, and give people the chance to conclude their own disappointment in them if and when they don’t. That works.

Was Mings "shouting and screaming" or was he holding a mirror up to Patel. Her reaction now should be apologetic, instead she extremely quiet. He's given her chance to say sorry and realise her error. Also as Carl says, how many times do people have to respectfully point out hoe disappointing this government are, just for it to be laughed off and ignored. I've had my fill of disappointment, nows the time to give them shit.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Dunge said:

Where I think Kopf has a point is that just shouting at people over this may be therapeutic but isn’t actually effective at achieving anything. Last year, Marcus Rashford achieved a lot precisely because he took a different approach. He pointed out a problem that could be fixed. He requested help. When it wasn’t forthcoming, he didn’t complain and instead went to work, putting his money where his mouth was. It was high profile, apolitical and simply kind. He did the right thing, without greater agenda or viewpoint, for the right thing’s sake. He was successful because instead of going to war against people, he exposed them with kindness. He showed them up. He continues to show them up as some Tories’ bitterness over him showed the other night. They were forced to backtrack and apologise, quite possibly by direction from Conservative central office. Unlike Trump and the Republicans, the Tories still care about their reputation. But that reputation isn’t hurt by deflecting angry people on social media. That’s part of why people are still supporting them in the polls, because social media is toxic in so many ways. But their reputation is hurt through disappointment, through being asked for help on a reasonable matter and then seeing whether they offer it.

 

In short: Don’t shout and scream at the Tories. It doesn’t work. Instead, give them the chance to help, and give people the chance to conclude their own disappointment in them if and when they don’t. That works.

 

The reality is that condemning the racists and supporting the England stance at the start of the tournament WAS the way the Tories should have helped here. That was their chance to do the right thing. Instead, they chose to do the opposite. And now they're claiming to condemn the very people they supported a few weeks ago?

 

I guess the fact Patel and Johnson are now tweeting about racism being bad all of a sudden is a consequence of public pressure in the way the Rashford campaign also caused action, but Mings is certainly right to point out their role in letting things get to this stage in the first place. All he's doing is trying to hold them to the highest standard we should expect from public servants, rather than let them off with a short statement mumbling the bleeding obvious about how those responsible for the abuse should be "ashamed" of themselves.

Edited 13 July 2021 by Voll Blau

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Marcus Rashford (and his people) played a blinder, embarrassing the Govt into making changes but without throwing lots of aggressive verbal shiit at them on social media. It was so cleverly done.

[Carl the Llama]

At the end of the day if you've criticised taking the knee as a 'woke' virtue signal then you're going to feel silly seeing a high-profile member of our society with the same views receive a well-worded, high-profile rebuke for expressing them now that they've chosen to condemn the behaviour they tacitly encouraged.  Not surprised at all about this backlash to the backlash, especially given that the identity of the person being admonished will have naturally triggered the blue vs left instincts that keep a terrible government firmly in control.

[Dunge]

5 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Was Mings "shouting and screaming" or was he holding a mirror up to Patel. Her reaction now should be apologetic, instead she extremely quiet. He's given her chance to say sorry and realise her error. Also as Carl says, how many times do people have to respectfully point out hoe disappointing this government are, just for it to be laughed off and ignored. I've had my fill of disappointment, nows the time to give them shit.

(Apologies for ensuing long post replying to three people!)
 

In response to you and @Carl the Llama, I want to make it clear for the avoidance of any doubt that I’m not having a go at Mings. He’s airing his frustrations at a pertinent and personal situation and I appreciate that. I’m not saying he’s wrong either, at least to the extent where I agree with you that she should be stating that she’s had time to reflect on the taking the knee situation and has a greater understanding of it now.

 

What I would say more generally - not specifically about racism although that remains part of the bigger picture - is that almost all of the things I see on social media (from general commenters rather than footballers or anything like that) is not people respectfully pointing out disappointment in the government. What I see instead is anger, and specifically people expressing themselves when they’re angry. Some of the criticism has been fair. Some, in my opinion, hasn’t. A poster above asked how to get rid of the Tories. Many people here express exasperation at how they’re riding high in the polls. I’m essentially trying to provide an answer to that from the perspective of someone who generally votes Conservative thinking about what I’d need to see to switch my vote to Labour or Lib Dem, which is surely what you’d want and need in order to achieve their future extrication from power. Essentially, I’m not impressed by the government, but I can live with them. I like some of their purported ideas, although I’m often doubtful they can deliver them. I’m willing to vote someone else but need convincing because of other concerns about the alternatives.
 

And this is where my phrase of seeing “shouting and screaming” on social media comes in, not as an accusation against a specific and understandable post from Tyrone Mings but from general posts from the public, posts that are anything but polite or respectful. It’s not convincing. I don’t want to be talking about culture wars, but from my perspective this comes from the left rather than the right as I see many people claim. If someone really wants to convince me that the Tories are at the forefront of culture wars rather than trying to defend people from angry others on social media, this is what I mean by giving them the chance to demonstrate it - in the way that Marcus Rashford did last year. You may see polite or respectful comments about disappointment in the Tories. Perhaps you’re referencing real life where people can provide far better nuance in their comments. I rarely do online, and it’s online where the problem lies and where I see people being pushed into corners.

 

@Voll Blau - I think on reflection that’s a very good point and indicates that Patel and Johnson have ended up digging a hole for themselves here. As I say above, I think Priti Patel should be making a statement Time that she’s reviewed her original statements about taking the knee and now realises she should show some leadership in support of it.

 

And that, to me, is also an example of the power of “showing over telling” - let people see what’s happening and let them come to their own judgement over whether or not they’re happy about what they’re seeing as a result. Let people see and assign responsibility where it actually lies. I notice that Boris has been meeting social media heads this afternoon. I’ll be interested to see what comes from it, and whether he’s willing to tackle the social media issues that some claim the Tories wouldn’t want to resolve because of alleged reliance on them due to votes they could get through the resultant culture wars.

[Lionator]

6 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Marcus Rashford (and his people) played a blinder, embarrassing the Govt into making changes but without throwing lots of aggressive verbal shiit at them on social media. It was so cleverly done.

Because his motivation wasn't political, it was because he genuinely wanted to ensure children who had the same upbringing as him had a basic human need. In a first world country. It embarrassed them because it exposed the destitution that our own citizens live in.

[grth2004]

On 12/07/2021 at 00:06, Koke said:

I know this isn't strictly politics nor is it strictly football. But I've always been baffled by this culture of heavy drinking to the point of idiocy. We've all seen the videos outside Wembley and Trafalgar Square, and it's quite frankly a disgrace. 

 

 

I do actually think it’s worth looking at drugs and not just alcohol, it seems to be cheaper and more readily available than ever and sends people over the edge. 
The government has lost complete control of the drugs trade but it’s never talked about , most knife crimes are also connected to drugs. Patel needs to concentrate on that more than getting involved in a footballer bending over.