Not The Politics Thread.

[Fightforever]

On 11/08/2021 at 18:03, What the Fuchs? said:

 

 

I wish more people in the media would confront Johnson’s constant lying like this more often, it’s people like him and Trump that thrive in this post truth era we unfortunately live in.

Most people in the country are left wing and didn't vote for Boris the problem is that the left is divided while the right is pretty much united. The majority of the country sees through his lies but the same majority don't know how to get on the same page. If Labour wasn't so scared to concede on letting go of FPTP I think a leftist coalition would have happened by now.

Edited 12 August 2021 by Fightforever

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Back in double figures, first time since mid July.

Probably just an outlier.

 

 

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Fightforever said:

Most people in the country are left wing and didn't vote for Boris the problem is that the left is divided while the right is pretty much united. The majority of the country sees through his lies but the same majority don't know how to get on the same page. If Labour wasn't so scared to concede on letting go of FPTP I think a leftist coalition would have happened by now.

I seriously doubt that. 

 

Although perhaps depends how you define left wing. Most people have quite left-leaning economic views, I think. 

Edited 12 August 2021 by bovril

[Fightforever]

7 hours ago, bovril said:

I seriously doubt that. 

 

Although perhaps depends how you define left wing. Most people have quite left-leaning economic views, I think. 

If you combine the vote share totals from Labour, Lib dems, the SNP and the Greens then they are the majority. These parties are all left wing or at least center left. Where as the only right leaning parties are the DUP and the Tories. I would agree with you sentiment that the country as a whole agrees with the economic side of the left more so than the cultural side. 

Edited 13 August 2021 by Fightforever

[bovril]

6 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

If you combine the vote share totals from Labour, Lib dems, the SNP and the Greens then they are the majority. These parties are all left wing or at least center left. Where as the only majory conservative parties are the DUP and the Tories. I would agree with you sentiment that the country as a whole agrees with the economic side of the left more so than the cultural side. 

Not sure I'd class Lib Dems and SNP as even centre-left but I concede I don't know that much about their policies. You're right though that 2/3 of the electorate don't vote conservative and I don't know why left wingers don't talk about that more. 

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Not sure I'd class Lib Dems and SNP as even centre-left but I concede I don't know that much about their policies. You're right though that 2/3 of the electorate don't vote conservative and I don't know why left wingers don't talk about that more. 

SNP I would say are. Lib Dems go back and forth between centre-left and centre-right depending on whether that particular leader concentrates more on economic liberalism or social liberalism. Traditionally though Lib Dems have always been left of centre socially but right of centre economically in that they generally (though it obviously changes election to election) believe in free trade, pro-immigration, pro-multiculturalism/European federalism, pro-progressive social policies, but also believe in free-market capitalism, lower taxes for the wealthy and lack of government intervention in the economy in general.

[davieG]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

 

David Skelton: Is a new form of snobbery reshaping British politics?
By Brian Wheeler
BBC News

Published6 hours ago
Share
England fan wearing a Boris Johnson mask
IMAGE SOURCEGETTY IMAGES
image captionCan Boris Johnson retain his working-class fans?
Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practiced by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future.

Skelton is one of the most influential centre-right thinkers in the country, whose previous book Little Platoons, contained the seeds of Boris Johnson's flagship "levelling up" policy.

He is also a native of the North-East of England, having grown up in Consett, a former steel town in the Pennine foothills, which like other former Labour strongholds elected a Conservative MP in 2019.

For Skelton, the crumbling of Labour's fabled "red wall" had been a long time coming.

Tories hail historic defeat of Labour in Hartlepool
How Labour's 'red wall' turned blue
Blood, sweat and steel: Life in and out of the steel works
"I felt that the status quo in both parties had rather taken for granted, rather ignored, the kind of people I went to school with - and the kind of people who, before the phrase became commonplace, were being 'left behind' by politicians of both parties."

But it took the 2016 Brexit referendum - and its bitter aftermath - to bring things to a head.

Hyacinth Bucket
image captionHyacinth Bucket epitomised old-school snobbery for sitcom lovers
"Working-class voters in places like Consett, places in the North East and Yorkshire, the Midlands - post-industrial places that had been long forgotten, just flexed their muscles for the first time.

"The response, I thought, was really disheartening."

'Identity politics'
He is referring to the savage war of words between Leavers and Remainers that played out on social media in the weeks following the referendum.

"The number of times I heard people described as stupid or under-educated or bigoted," he says, was "really annoying for me, because these are my friends, these are my family who are anything but bigoted and the very opposite of it."

According to Skelton, Leavers were subjected to abuse from people "generally wealthier and better educated than them - or with a higher level of academic education".

In his book, he argues that this is a new form of snobbery, more "insidious" than traditional forms because it "questions people's ability to participate in the democratic process".

John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett
image captionThe class system inspired satirists in the 1960s
Labour supporters and members of the People's Vote campaign for another referendum were particularly susceptible to it, he claims.

He concedes that you would be hard-pressed to find examples of Labour politicians or activists - increasingly drawn from the city-dwelling professional classes - openly sneering at the working classes, beyond a few well-shared social media posts.

But he argues it is there in the tone of what they say and the issues they choose to prioritise. There is a chapter in his book on "wokeism" and "identity politics", which he argues, is policed by a small, privileged elite.

Like other writers, on both the left and right, Skelton points the finger at a misguided version of meritocracy, which gives people fortunate enough to have had a good education licence to look down on those who haven't.

'Savage cuts'
In fact, his definition of the working class - always a slippery concept in post-industrial Britain - is people who did not go to university.

Consett steel works
IMAGE SOURCEGETTY IMAGES
image captionConsett was once dominated by its steel works
The professional classes, including politicians and journalists, have long been dominated by graduates, often from privileged private school backgrounds. Even those from more humble origins leave their home areas and friendship groups behind, in search of a better income and more acceptable opinions, argues Skelton.

He does not call for fewer young people to go on to higher education - but does argue for a reversal of the "savage" cuts in funding for further education and a higher social status for frontline workers.

He also bemoans the destruction of secure, skilled jobs that gave communities like Consett a sense of pride and meaning.

In this respect, his book, The New Snobbery, is very similar to another recent book, The Dignity of Labour, by Labour MP John Cruddas, who I interviewed in May.

Thatcherite policies
Skelton is an admirer of Cruddas's work, and like him sees salvation in the return of high-quality, well-paid jobs in manufacturing.

Many, including Cruddas, would argue that these jobs and the communities they sustained were destroyed by the Conservatives in the first place,

In the 1980, the closure of the steel plant in Consett, with the loss of 3,700 jobs, became a byword on the left for brutal, uncaring Thatcherite policies.

Skelton says the "headlong rush" towards deindustrialisation - and the switch to a service-based economy - in the 1980s and 1990s was a mistake.

David Skelton
IMAGE SOURCEDAVID SKELTON
image captionDavid Skelton says voters will not wait forever for "levelling up"
He claims that under Boris Johnson there has been "a change in mindset and certainly a change in rhetoric" at the top of the Conservative Party. Hardline Thatcherite economics are increasingly out of favour - and "levelling up" is the latest buzzword, with promises to spend money on neglected parts of the country.

The jury is still out on whether levelling up will amount to much more than some showpiece infrastructure spending and a few thousands civil service jobs sent north. Detailed polices are promised for the autumn.

Skelton warns that "a lasting change can only happen if working-class voters become central to everything the (Conservative) party says and does". This may involve upsetting vested interests, and donors, he adds.

The jury is also out on whether that will come to pass, but Boris Johnson does not have forever to consolidate his newfound support among the victims of the new snobbery, says Skelton.

"Frankly, the Tories are not going to have a majority of 80 for long if they don't deliver for the voters who brought about that majority in the first place.

"These voters are patient, but they don't have endless reserves of patience."

[Dunge]

11 hours ago, davieG said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

 

David Skelton: Is a new form of snobbery reshaping British politics?
By Brian Wheeler
BBC News

Published6 hours ago
Share
England fan wearing a Boris Johnson mask
IMAGE SOURCEGETTY IMAGES
image captionCan Boris Johnson retain his working-class fans?
Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practiced by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future.

Skelton is one of the most influential centre-right thinkers in the country, whose previous book Little Platoons, contained the seeds of Boris Johnson's flagship "levelling up" policy.

He is also a native of the North-East of England, having grown up in Consett, a former steel town in the Pennine foothills, which like other former Labour strongholds elected a Conservative MP in 2019.

For Skelton, the crumbling of Labour's fabled "red wall" had been a long time coming.

Tories hail historic defeat of Labour in Hartlepool
How Labour's 'red wall' turned blue
Blood, sweat and steel: Life in and out of the steel works
"I felt that the status quo in both parties had rather taken for granted, rather ignored, the kind of people I went to school with - and the kind of people who, before the phrase became commonplace, were being 'left behind' by politicians of both parties."

But it took the 2016 Brexit referendum - and its bitter aftermath - to bring things to a head.

Hyacinth Bucket
image captionHyacinth Bucket epitomised old-school snobbery for sitcom lovers
"Working-class voters in places like Consett, places in the North East and Yorkshire, the Midlands - post-industrial places that had been long forgotten, just flexed their muscles for the first time.

"The response, I thought, was really disheartening."

'Identity politics'
He is referring to the savage war of words between Leavers and Remainers that played out on social media in the weeks following the referendum.

"The number of times I heard people described as stupid or under-educated or bigoted," he says, was "really annoying for me, because these are my friends, these are my family who are anything but bigoted and the very opposite of it."

According to Skelton, Leavers were subjected to abuse from people "generally wealthier and better educated than them - or with a higher level of academic education".

In his book, he argues that this is a new form of snobbery, more "insidious" than traditional forms because it "questions people's ability to participate in the democratic process".

John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett
image captionThe class system inspired satirists in the 1960s
Labour supporters and members of the People's Vote campaign for another referendum were particularly susceptible to it, he claims.

He concedes that you would be hard-pressed to find examples of Labour politicians or activists - increasingly drawn from the city-dwelling professional classes - openly sneering at the working classes, beyond a few well-shared social media posts.

But he argues it is there in the tone of what they say and the issues they choose to prioritise. There is a chapter in his book on "wokeism" and "identity politics", which he argues, is policed by a small, privileged elite.

Like other writers, on both the left and right, Skelton points the finger at a misguided version of meritocracy, which gives people fortunate enough to have had a good education licence to look down on those who haven't.

'Savage cuts'
In fact, his definition of the working class - always a slippery concept in post-industrial Britain - is people who did not go to university.

Consett steel works
IMAGE SOURCEGETTY IMAGES
image captionConsett was once dominated by its steel works
The professional classes, including politicians and journalists, have long been dominated by graduates, often from privileged private school backgrounds. Even those from more humble origins leave their home areas and friendship groups behind, in search of a better income and more acceptable opinions, argues Skelton.

He does not call for fewer young people to go on to higher education - but does argue for a reversal of the "savage" cuts in funding for further education and a higher social status for frontline workers.

He also bemoans the destruction of secure, skilled jobs that gave communities like Consett a sense of pride and meaning.

In this respect, his book, The New Snobbery, is very similar to another recent book, The Dignity of Labour, by Labour MP John Cruddas, who I interviewed in May.

Thatcherite policies
Skelton is an admirer of Cruddas's work, and like him sees salvation in the return of high-quality, well-paid jobs in manufacturing.

Many, including Cruddas, would argue that these jobs and the communities they sustained were destroyed by the Conservatives in the first place,

In the 1980, the closure of the steel plant in Consett, with the loss of 3,700 jobs, became a byword on the left for brutal, uncaring Thatcherite policies.

Skelton says the "headlong rush" towards deindustrialisation - and the switch to a service-based economy - in the 1980s and 1990s was a mistake.

David Skelton
IMAGE SOURCEDAVID SKELTON
image captionDavid Skelton says voters will not wait forever for "levelling up"
He claims that under Boris Johnson there has been "a change in mindset and certainly a change in rhetoric" at the top of the Conservative Party. Hardline Thatcherite economics are increasingly out of favour - and "levelling up" is the latest buzzword, with promises to spend money on neglected parts of the country.

The jury is still out on whether levelling up will amount to much more than some showpiece infrastructure spending and a few thousands civil service jobs sent north. Detailed polices are promised for the autumn.

Skelton warns that "a lasting change can only happen if working-class voters become central to everything the (Conservative) party says and does". This may involve upsetting vested interests, and donors, he adds.

The jury is also out on whether that will come to pass, but Boris Johnson does not have forever to consolidate his newfound support among the victims of the new snobbery, says Skelton.

"Frankly, the Tories are not going to have a majority of 80 for long if they don't deliver for the voters who brought about that majority in the first place.

"These voters are patient, but they don't have endless reserves of patience."

I saw this article earlier today. I think there’s an awful lot of truth in it.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

 

[Voll Blau]

On 14/08/2021 at 08:46, davieG said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58186519

 

David Skelton: Is a new form of snobbery reshaping British politics?
By Brian Wheeler
BBC News

Published6 hours ago
Share
England fan wearing a Boris Johnson mask
IMAGE SOURCEGETTY IMAGES
image captionCan Boris Johnson retain his working-class fans?
Snobbery is a very British vice - but according to the author of a new book it is no longer about looking down on people for having the wrong accent or manners.

The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practiced by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted, David Skelton argues.

He believes it is the biggest fault line in British politics, and could lead to the Conservative Party staying in power for the foreseeable future.

Skelton is one of the most influential centre-right thinkers in the country, whose previous book Little Platoons, contained the seeds of Boris Johnson's flagship "levelling up" policy.

He is also a native of the North-East of England, having grown up in Consett, a former steel town in the Pennine foothills, which like other former Labour strongholds elected a Conservative MP in 2019.

For Skelton, the crumbling of Labour's fabled "red wall" had been a long time coming.

Tories hail historic defeat of Labour in Hartlepool
How Labour's 'red wall' turned blue
Blood, sweat and steel: Life in and out of the steel works
"I felt that the status quo in both parties had rather taken for granted, rather ignored, the kind of people I went to school with - and the kind of people who, before the phrase became commonplace, were being 'left behind' by politicians of both parties."

But it took the 2016 Brexit referendum - and its bitter aftermath - to bring things to a head.

Hyacinth Bucket
image captionHyacinth Bucket epitomised old-school snobbery for sitcom lovers
"Working-class voters in places like Consett, places in the North East and Yorkshire, the Midlands - post-industrial places that had been long forgotten, just flexed their muscles for the first time.

"The response, I thought, was really disheartening."

'Identity politics'
He is referring to the savage war of words between Leavers and Remainers that played out on social media in the weeks following the referendum.

"The number of times I heard people described as stupid or under-educated or bigoted," he says, was "really annoying for me, because these are my friends, these are my family who are anything but bigoted and the very opposite of it."

According to Skelton, Leavers were subjected to abuse from people "generally wealthier and better educated than them - or with a higher level of academic education".

In his book, he argues that this is a new form of snobbery, more "insidious" than traditional forms because it "questions people's ability to participate in the democratic process".

John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett
image captionThe class system inspired satirists in the 1960s
Labour supporters and members of the People's Vote campaign for another referendum were particularly susceptible to it, he claims.

He concedes that you would be hard-pressed to find examples of Labour politicians or activists - increasingly drawn from the city-dwelling professional classes - openly sneering at the working classes, beyond a few well-shared social media posts.

But he argues it is there in the tone of what they say and the issues they choose to prioritise. There is a chapter in his book on "wokeism" and "identity politics", which he argues, is policed by a small, privileged elite.

Like other writers, on both the left and right, Skelton points the finger at a misguided version of meritocracy, which gives people fortunate enough to have had a good education licence to look down on those who haven't.

'Savage cuts'
In fact, his definition of the working class - always a slippery concept in post-industrial Britain - is people who did not go to university.

Consett steel works
IMAGE SOURCEGETTY IMAGES
image captionConsett was once dominated by its steel works
The professional classes, including politicians and journalists, have long been dominated by graduates, often from privileged private school backgrounds. Even those from more humble origins leave their home areas and friendship groups behind, in search of a better income and more acceptable opinions, argues Skelton.

He does not call for fewer young people to go on to higher education - but does argue for a reversal of the "savage" cuts in funding for further education and a higher social status for frontline workers.

He also bemoans the destruction of secure, skilled jobs that gave communities like Consett a sense of pride and meaning.

In this respect, his book, The New Snobbery, is very similar to another recent book, The Dignity of Labour, by Labour MP John Cruddas, who I interviewed in May.

Thatcherite policies
Skelton is an admirer of Cruddas's work, and like him sees salvation in the return of high-quality, well-paid jobs in manufacturing.

Many, including Cruddas, would argue that these jobs and the communities they sustained were destroyed by the Conservatives in the first place,

In the 1980, the closure of the steel plant in Consett, with the loss of 3,700 jobs, became a byword on the left for brutal, uncaring Thatcherite policies.

Skelton says the "headlong rush" towards deindustrialisation - and the switch to a service-based economy - in the 1980s and 1990s was a mistake.

David Skelton
IMAGE SOURCEDAVID SKELTON
image captionDavid Skelton says voters will not wait forever for "levelling up"
He claims that under Boris Johnson there has been "a change in mindset and certainly a change in rhetoric" at the top of the Conservative Party. Hardline Thatcherite economics are increasingly out of favour - and "levelling up" is the latest buzzword, with promises to spend money on neglected parts of the country.

The jury is still out on whether levelling up will amount to much more than some showpiece infrastructure spending and a few thousands civil service jobs sent north. Detailed polices are promised for the autumn.

Skelton warns that "a lasting change can only happen if working-class voters become central to everything the (Conservative) party says and does". This may involve upsetting vested interests, and donors, he adds.

The jury is also out on whether that will come to pass, but Boris Johnson does not have forever to consolidate his newfound support among the victims of the new snobbery, says Skelton.

"Frankly, the Tories are not going to have a majority of 80 for long if they don't deliver for the voters who brought about that majority in the first place.

"These voters are patient, but they don't have endless reserves of patience."

So people cease to become working class the minute they enter a lecture hall, according to this author? Pretty ironic that he wants to talk about snobbery when he's going to make the woefully wrong assumption that anyone who prefers to take the academic route in life will automatically forget their roots.

Yeah I get that people don't like the embarrassing #FBPE types who have some absolutely rotten prejudices that they like to air (to the huge detriment of their alleged cause), but most of the time I only see people being called out for being ignorant and bigoted when they actually ARE being ignorant and bigoted - regardless of their background.

Funny how we get all weepy about this but nobody wants to stick up for those being branded "traitors" who are told they should have been either shot or deported because of the way they've voted in the past five years. I know which attitude's a more serious threat to democracy - poor Jo Cox found that out to her cost.

Edited 17 August 2021 by Voll Blau

[StanSP]

Weak and pathetic. He has no clue. 

 

 

 

[Ecdysiast]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

Weak and pathetic. He has no clue. 

 

 

 

Shameful... what a shower of absolute shit this government is.  The opposition isn't much better... Thank you for posting

[Guest Kopfkino]

2 hours ago, StanSP said:

Weak and pathetic. He has no clue. 

 

 

 

I really don’t get this ‘The government must do and supply everything’ attitude to these things and if the government doesn’t do it then it’s a problem. If charities are good at supplying specialist mental health support in a particular scenario or to a particular subset then that is fantastic. Even if the NHS’s mental health provision was really good in general (I fully agree it’s not up to scratch) that doesn’t mean that it would necessarily be good in this particular circumstance (resources will always be allocated where there is greatest demand, clearly this specific demand here is relatively low) and replace the need for Help for Heroes or the British Legion or whoever.

 

Seriously weird situation where we’re implicitly deciding charity is bad and the only good way to do things is via the state. I mean even if you believe the state must do it all and there’s no role for private provision, it’s clearly good advice in the here and now to advise those affected to use these charities to get help. You sort of have to tackle the situation in the current status quo rather than an imagined world.

[StanSP]

I didn't implicitly decide charity is bad. I just think to suggest those suffering trauma should go seek help from charities skirts over the actual issue. It creates a burden on those charities to deal with such severe issues and those who actually suffer such trauma probably deserve better specialist care. It does them a disservice. 

Even when someone asked him what charities he couldn't think of any. It just looked like he was out of his depth and he was squirming. 

[bmt]

24 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I really don’t get this ‘The government must do and supply everything’ attitude to these things and if the government doesn’t do it then it’s a problem. If charities are good at supplying specialist mental health support in a particular scenario or to a particular subset then that is fantastic. Even if the NHS’s mental health provision was really good in general (I fully agree it’s not up to scratch) that doesn’t mean that it would necessarily be good in this particular circumstance (resources will always be allocated where there is greatest demand, clearly this specific demand here is relatively low) and replace the need for Help for Heroes or the British Legion or whoever.

 

Seriously weird situation where we’re implicitly deciding charity is bad and the only good way to do things is via the state. I mean even if you believe the state must do it all and there’s no role for private provision, it’s clearly good advice in the here and now to advise those affected to use these charities to get help. You sort of have to tackle the situation in the current status quo rather than an imagined world.

For me the argument is to do with responsibility. Whilst charities exist the responsibility is on the government.

 

I agree with your second paragraph but people see that as deferring responsibility as opposed to sound advice.

[fuchsntf]

58 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I really don’t get this ‘The government must do and supply everything’ attitude to these things and if the government doesn’t do it then it’s a problem. If charities are good at supplying specialist mental health support in a particular scenario or to a particular subset then that is fantastic. Even if the NHS’s mental health provision was really good in general (I fully agree it’s not up to scratch) that doesn’t mean that it would necessarily be good in this particular circumstance (resources will always be allocated where there is greatest demand, clearly this specific demand here is relatively low) and replace the need for Help for Heroes or the British Legion or whoever.

 

Seriously weird situation where we’re implicitly deciding charity is bad and the only good way to do things is via the state. I mean even if you believe the state must do it all and there’s no role for private provision, it’s clearly good advice in the here and now to advise those affected to use these charities to get help. You sort of have to tackle the situation in the current status quo rather than an imagined world.

they Served the Nation in the real world, Making Sure the bogey didnt come Knocking at your door

So Now their future needs are only Served up in an Imagined world...

 

I mean ffs...

I wish just wish all the Service & Military personelle, would go on Holiday for 2 weeks...!!

 

[Voll Blau]

If you put your life, body and mind on the line for the state, then the state should look after you. Simple.

 

Johnson and Raab cut two pathetic figures in front of a full house in the Commons yesterday and were rightly getting pelters from all sides.

 

All irrelevant that this pair are completely out of their depth though because of the hilarious Diane Abbott maths memes Your Dad keeps sharing on Facebook.

[HighPeakFox]

The assertion that 'most people in this country are left-wing'  can only be considered true if one is willing to ignore the massive slide to the right forced on the centre by decades of scare-tactics over lefties, reds under the bed, commies etc etc.

 

Not a very well constructed sentence, but, whether one is on the left or not, in my opinion everyone should be alarmed at the (apparently unstoppable) conditioning to paint one side of politics as unpatriotic, a danger to national security and so forth. It does nobody any good and discourages critical thinking, as well as being (opinion, not fact) projection by the very worst of the Eton classes and the disgustingly rich.

[ealingfox]

25 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

If you put your life, body and mind on the line for the state, then the state should look after you. Simple.

 

Johnson and Raab cut two pathetic figures in front of a full house in the Commons yesterday and were rightly getting pelters from all sides.

 

All irrelevant that this pair are completely out of their depth though because of the hilarious Diane Abbott maths memes Your Dad keeps sharing on Facebook.

 

I'm not all that sure I agree with this tbf. In an age of conscription, yes definitely. But today the army is just another line of employment that people choose to go in to of their own volition and can leave at any time.

 

I suppose this doesn't mean that they aren't putting their life, body and mind on the line, so perhaps it's the for the state bit that I find problematic. It's certainly on behalf of the state, but given the choice they had in doing so I can't agree it's as noble or that society owes them the same debt as those who joined because they were told they had to.

 

Interesting one and I don't feel strongly either way. I can't imagine the welfare burden for ex-forces is too heavy.

Edited 19 August 2021 by ealingfox

[Dunge]

10 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

The assertion that 'most people in this country are left-wing'  can only be considered true if one is willing to ignore the massive slide to the right forced on the centre by decades of scare-tactics over lefties, reds under the bed, commies etc etc.

 

Not a very well constructed sentence, but, whether one is on the left or not, in my opinion everyone should be alarmed at the (apparently unstoppable) conditioning to paint one side of politics as unpatriotic, a danger to national security and so forth. It does nobody any good and discourages critical thinking, as well as being (opinion, not fact) projection by the very worst of the Eton classes and the disgustingly rich.

Is it really conditioning though?

 

While I’m sure something of a generalisation, I’ve seen (online) plenty of younger left wing people who are great internationalists, not believers in the nation state, who identify more with people in other countries than their own and don’t particularly identify as British, people who it seems have no desire to be patriotic, which is their choice but others won’t agree with that. I’ve seen plenty of younger left wing people who desire nuclear disarmament; I disagree with that, not because I love nukes or want to see them used but because I think managing them and the science behind them is a necessary responsibility that would be a threat to both national and world security if we didn’t. And people have been fearful of left wing politics going back many, many decades because of fears of losing control of their own wealth and, with it, freedom. It’s not about a Daily Mail or anything brainwashing me of any of this, I can see people carrying these views proudly for myself.

 

It’s not scare tactics; I disagree with them for what they’re writing and what they’re saying for myself. And that doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong. It’s surely perfectly possible for two people to apply perfectly reasonable critical thinking in politics and come to two completely different conclusions on where their X goes on the voting paper.

[Voll Blau]

17 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

I'm not all that sure I agree with this tbf. In an age of conscription, yes definitely. But today the army is just another line of employment that people choose to go in to of their own volition and can leave at any time.

 

I suppose this doesn't mean that they aren't putting their life, body and mind on the line, so perhaps it's the for the state bit that I find problematic. It's certainly on behalf of the state, but given the choice they had in doing so I can't agree it's as noble or that society owes them the same debt as those who joined because they were told they had to.

 

Interesting one and I don't feel strongly either way. I can't imagine the welfare burden for ex-forces is too heavy.

 I totally agree that it's just another career choice and so on, but you still have little choice if you're ordered to go and witness some of the horrors that forces personnel end up coming across during their career - you don't often see photos of the damage caused by IEDs in recruitment brochures.

 

It's not a question of whether it's a more noble vocation than other public service roles for me (I've got forces mates who find the whole modern obsession with glorification of what they do quite embarrassing and I totally agree with them). It's just that if you're sent to do mentally and physically traumatising work on behalf of the state then it's only fair that the state should pick up the burden for your care.

[HighPeakFox]

45 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Is it really conditioning though?

 

While I’m sure something of a generalisation, I’ve seen (online) plenty of younger left wing people who are great internationalists, not believers in the nation state, who identify more with people in other countries than their own and don’t particularly identify as British, people who it seems have no desire to be patriotic, which is their choice but others won’t agree with that. I’ve seen plenty of younger left wing people who desire nuclear disarmament; I disagree with that, not because I love nukes or want to see them used but because I think managing them and the science behind them is a necessary responsibility that would be a threat to both national and world security if we didn’t. And people have been fearful of left wing politics going back many, many decades because of fears of losing control of their own wealth and, with it, freedom. It’s not about a Daily Mail or anything brainwashing me of any of this, I can see people carrying these views proudly for myself.

 

It’s not scare tactics; I disagree with them for what they’re writing and what they’re saying for myself. And that doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong. It’s surely perfectly possible for two people to apply perfectly reasonable critical thinking in politics and come to two completely different conclusions on where their X goes on the voting paper.

We can respectfully disagree - you put your argument well.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Interesting thread as the FBPE mob get into a furious rage about the British flag on goods 

 

 

[Samilktray]

44 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Interesting thread as the FBPE mob get into a furious rage about the British flag on goods 

 

 

That tweet is dated March, I’d hope people on both sides of this nonsense have long since moved on 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

3 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

That tweet is dated March, I’d hope people on both sides of this nonsense have long since moved on 

If you follow the thread @Samilktray you'll see similar nonsense from those anti-flaggers in April, June and again today. They still haven't moved on.