Not The Politics Thread.

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, Dunge said:

So I’ll just say the one thing about the above: From all that I’ve read and observed, checking the original words, statements, etc., I don’t class either Corbyn or Boris as racists. I do think the former ignored and facilitated them though, while the other was deliberately clumsy and unprofessional, again indirectly facilitating it. In an ideal world, neither would or should be prime minister.

Fully agree that Corbyn could and should have taken a firmer stance, but I find this comment falls into the same old cliché of 'clumsy' Boris not being directly responsible for the things that very deliberately come out of his mouth or from his pen.  I'm so, so tired of it.  

[Dunge]

4 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Fully agree that Corbyn could and should have taken a firmer stance, but I find this comment falls into the same old cliché of 'clumsy' Boris not being directly responsible for the things that very deliberately come out of his mouth or from his pen.  I'm so, so tired of it.  

Just because it’s clumsy, I wouldn’t say it’s not deliberate (particularly the pen) or that he shouldn’t take responsibility for it. Take his letterboxes line: From the context, for me, his point was to say that there shouldn’t be laws saying the burka should be banned but that it should leave people open to ridicule. He was using fruity language to make a point - a point you may disagree with but not an inherently racist one. The problem was a failure to recognise that in doing so he created a whole new insult for people to use in a racist way. His words were unsurprising of a journalist, yet unbecoming of a Prime Minister.

 

So is it clumsy, in that he didn’t appreciate the full consequences? I believe so. I don’t believe he’s so super-intelligent that he recognises the significance of every single thing that comes from either his mouth or his pen. But that to me is where he uses his persona, his caricature, his very voice to bail himself out when he does go too far. He sounds like a clown most of the time, so people go “it’s only Boris”, while they’d hold a more serious character to account. When he gaffes, it’s both unintentional and deliberate at the same time.

 

Should he take responsibility for it? Absolutely. It’s a shame on him that he’s never properly apologised for his letterbox comment.

[Voll Blau]

50 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Just because it’s clumsy, I wouldn’t say it’s not deliberate (particularly the pen) or that he shouldn’t take responsibility for it. Take his letterboxes line: From the context, for me, his point was to say that there shouldn’t be laws saying the burka should be banned but that it should leave people open to ridicule. He was using fruity language to make a point - a point you may disagree with but not an inherently racist one. The problem was a failure to recognise that in doing so he created a whole new insult for people to use in a racist way. His words were unsurprising of a journalist, yet unbecoming of a Prime Minister.

 

So is it clumsy, in that he didn’t appreciate the full consequences? I believe so. I don’t believe he’s so super-intelligent that he recognises the significance of every single thing that comes from either his mouth or his pen. But that to me is where he uses his persona, his caricature, his very voice to bail himself out when he does go too far. He sounds like a clown most of the time, so people go “it’s only Boris”, while they’d hold a more serious character to account. When he gaffes, it’s both unintentional and deliberate at the same time.

 

Should he take responsibility for it? Absolutely. It’s a shame on him that he’s never properly apologised for his letterbox comment.

On the contrary, I'd say they were entirely atypical of the kind of language most journalists use. The odd crackpot columnist? Maybe. But not rank and file journalists.

 

Johnson was an embarrassment to the trade as a reporter, but his habit of getting a way with playing fast and loose with the truth has continued to serve him well throughout his life sadly...

[David Guiza]

I know it's been said a thousand times, but the likes of Bastani and co are really grating more than ever. Putting out tweets to his herd suggesting that Starmer avoided the suggestion of taxing the wealthy in as response to the NI increase during the commons debate yesterday. In actual fact he said "We do need to ask those with the broadest shoulders to pay more, including asking much more of wealthier people with income from stocks and shares, dividends or property."

 

How do people like Bastani on the left and his cretinous equivalents on the right generate such a large following? I'm still not over when he thought Neymar's transfer fee from Barcelona to PSG was £198bn.

[HighPeakFox]

Very interesting thread, props to @Dunge and @What the Fuchs? in particular for their contributions. Nobody would be surprised to hear that my opinions line up more with the latter's  

 

I'd just like to say that the issue of Corbyn being a racist is and was a deeply troubling one, because a more decent, less racist man it would be hard to find. It should tell us far more about propaganda and general 'fear of the left' than about him, but to many, it has become the 'truth'. It has been deeply troubling that, as a man of Jewish descent, that some close Jewish friends have become so willing to be persuaded of who their enemies are, when the reality is (in my opinion of course) somewhat different.

 

The other thing is.... England (not the UK/GB) alone is a very right-wing country, and of course the dominant part of the union. We're so used to it that many of us cease to notice it, and that is how bad things tend to become normalized. And just to clarify that, in case anyone thinks I'm saying 'all right-wingers are BAD' - I'm not. It would be JUST AS BAD if auto-leftism was to take hold in the same way. I'm saying that a culture rooted in only one way of doing things isn't healthy.

Edited 8 September 2021 by HighPeakFox

[Footballwipe]

36 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

I know it's been said a thousand times, but the likes of Bastani and co are really grating more than ever. Putting out tweets to his herd suggesting that Starmer avoided the suggestion of taxing the wealthy in as response to the NI increase during the commons debate yesterday. In actual fact he said "We do need to ask those with the broadest shoulders to pay more, including asking much more of wealthier people with income from stocks and shares, dividends or property."

 

How do people like Bastani on the left and his cretinous equivalents on the right generate such a large following? I'm still not over when he thought Neymar's transfer fee from Barcelona to PSG was £198bn.

 

Think there's a separate debate here about the "cult of personality" and how people on the left and right seemingly get hooked into following individuals or, to give them a better term, grifters. These people will distort, they will spew bile and misinformation to their ever loyal fanbase as people get deeper and deeper into them.

 

The truth doesn't matter. Facts don't matter, the extra context doesn't matter. Build a big enough loyal followership and if anyone comes in to correct you, just "release the hounds" and instigate a pile-on. "I'll say what you want to hear, I'll continue to deepen your bias and distort your reality, and if I need to cover any legal fees you'll be first to fling me what you can afford on GoFundMe."

 

It's actually almost scary how easy it is for people to fall under this (again, both sides, not assigning blame to any wing) and it's downright dangerous. Although, I suspect it's already obliterated discourse and rationality in this country as it's become so much easier to lasso people in.

[Wolfox]

On 07/09/2021 at 09:08, Greg2607 said:

 

I wasn't a massive fan of Cameron, but at least he came across as intelligent. I had confidence with him at the helm,

 

 

 

11 hours ago, RobHawk said:

 

Bojo the clown has been by far the worst PM of my lifetime. 

Sorry…. I feel compelled to express and extremely heart felt view as I would love for people to reflect on how god awful  Cameron was along with boy George how unnecessary and nasty their policies were

 

Cameron deserves to go down in history as one of the worst PM’s ever…. He gambled with the countries stability to settle an internal fight with the Tory party over Europe…. Agreed Farage gained traction but not seats….  Nobody in the clubs, pubs and dining rooms of Britain were seriously talking about Brexit…. It wasn’t a talking point that needed to be addressed as a nation…. Not even close

 

Furthermore…. In a bid to give the appearance of good governance they set about austerity, one of the single most damaging and spiteful policies that there ever was (my wife used to support adults with special educational needs and sacked it off to become a teacher)….   Cuts cuts and cuts only damaged the most vulnerable in society and it’s a sector that will really struggle to recover…. Money was cheap and there was no borrowing crisis (that was a complete myth)

 

He then sweeps back into the spotlight of late to show greedily he’d abused his position to have a prime seat at the trough with Greensill

 

He should be remembered in the top 3 worst PM’s in history…. I loathe the man

 

Oh yeah…. And let’s not forget he was a pig fvcker

[David Guiza]

26 minutes ago, Footballwipe said:

 

Think there's a separate debate here about the "cult of personality" and how people on the left and right seemingly get hooked into following individuals or, to give them a better term, grifters. These people will distort, they will spew bile and misinformation to their ever loyal fanbase as people get deeper and deeper into them.

 

The truth doesn't matter. Facts don't matter, the extra context doesn't matter. Build a big enough loyal followership and if anyone comes in to correct you, just "release the hounds" and instigate a pile-on. "I'll say what you want to hear, I'll continue to deepen your bias and distort your reality, and if I need to cover any legal fees you'll be first to fling me what you can afford on GoFundMe."

 

It's actually almost scary how easy it is for people to fall under this (again, both sides, not assigning blame to any wing) and it's downright dangerous. Although, I suspect it's already obliterated discourse and rationality in this country as it's become so much easier to lasso people in.

I remember watching one of the series of A House Through Time (thoroughly recommended, by the way) which was centered around a house in Bristol and one of the first people to have lived there was a gentleman in the 1800s who was deemed to effectively have been the first Katie Hopkins. He gained notoriety by spreading lies and discourse among the working classes and suggesting that certain demographics were to blame for their demise; and depressingly enough we've not really moved on from that in over two centuries. I guess so long as there are people who will listen the likes of the extreme left and right will continue to be elevated way beyond their capabilities.

 

The difference between now and 200 years ago though is that it's gone from shouting on a soapbox to shouting through the internet to masses, or even featuring on programmes like Question Time in the case of Laurence Fox. 

[Dunge]

12 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

I remember watching one of the series of A House Through Time (thoroughly recommended, by the way) which was centered around a house in Bristol and one of the first people to have lived there was a gentleman in the 1800s who was deemed to effectively have been the first Katie Hopkins. He gained notoriety by spreading lies and discourse among the working classes and suggesting that certain demographics were to blame for their demise; and depressingly enough we've not really moved on from that in over two centuries. I guess so long as there are people who will listen the likes of the extreme left and right will continue to be elevated way beyond their capabilities.

 

The difference between now and 200 years ago though is that it's gone from shouting on a soapbox to shouting through the internet to masses, or even featuring on programmes like Question Time in the case of Laurence Fox. 

A bit of a tangent, but I find Laurence Fox an interesting case. The first time I remember him being on Question Time, I thought he spoke well. Yes, he was right of centre, with a libertarian skew but not anything I considered unreasonable.

Ever since then, every time he opens his mouth he just gets worse and worse, now speaking total and utter rot and every opportunity.

 

I’m curious as to whether he always believed the kind of things he’s saying - I’m guessing probably not, although he does come across as someone who’s not used to people disagreeing with him. In particular, when people use the phrase “white privilege”, it’s hard to argue that he isn’t a prime example of it. But more than anything he comes across to me as someone who’s quite immature when it comes to proper debate and has just fallen down a rabbit hole, with him now flailing wildly, unsure how to get out, yet also proclaiming proudly that having his head underground and his feet flapping in the air is entirely intentional, and that if you had any sense you’d be doing the same.

[The People's Hero]

59 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

Sorry…. I feel compelled to express and extremely heart felt view as I would love for people to reflect on how god awful  Cameron was along with boy George how unnecessary and nasty their policies were

 

Cameron deserves to go down in history as one of the worst PM’s ever…. He gambled with the countries stability to settle an internal fight with the Tory party over Europe…. Agreed Farage gained traction but not seats….  Nobody in the clubs, pubs and dining rooms of Britain were seriously talking about Brexit…. It wasn’t a talking point that needed to be addressed as a nation…. Not even close

 

Furthermore…. In a bid to give the appearance of good governance they set about austerity, one of the single most damaging and spiteful policies that there ever was (my wife used to support adults with special educational needs and sacked it off to become a teacher)….   Cuts cuts and cuts only damaged the most vulnerable in society and it’s a sector that will really struggle to recover…. Money was cheap and there was no borrowing crisis (that was a complete myth)

 

He then sweeps back into the spotlight of late to show greedily he’d abused his position to have a prime seat at the trough with Greensill

 

He should be remembered in the top 3 worst PM’s in history…. I loathe the man

 

Oh yeah…. And let’s not forget he was a pig fvcker

 

There is actually more truth in this then most would like to concede. The manufactured borrowing crisis in particular leaves a nasty taste in the mouth and the effects of the policies brought in as a pretend response to it have done an incredible amount of damage.

 

Anyway; that's me out of this thread. Can't believe I allowed myself in for a look.

[Fox in the North]

Forgive my ignorance but is it normal to have a snap vote on such critical reforms just a day after its announcement? Surely this needs more scrutiny?

[RobHawk]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

Sorry…. I feel compelled to express and extremely heart felt view as I would love for people to reflect on how god awful  Cameron was along with boy George how unnecessary and nasty their policies were

 

Cameron deserves to go down in history as one of the worst PM’s ever…. He gambled with the countries stability to settle an internal fight with the Tory party over Europe…. Agreed Farage gained traction but not seats….  Nobody in the clubs, pubs and dining rooms of Britain were seriously talking about Brexit…. It wasn’t a talking point that needed to be addressed as a nation…. Not even close

 

Furthermore…. In a bid to give the appearance of good governance they set about austerity, one of the single most damaging and spiteful policies that there ever was (my wife used to support adults with special educational needs and sacked it off to become a teacher)….   Cuts cuts and cuts only damaged the most vulnerable in society and it’s a sector that will really struggle to recover…. Money was cheap and there was no borrowing crisis (that was a complete myth)

 

He then sweeps back into the spotlight of late to show greedily he’d abused his position to have a prime seat at the trough with Greensill

 

He should be remembered in the top 3 worst PM’s in history…. I loathe the man

 

Oh yeah…. And let’s not forget he was a pig fvcker

I agree with every sentiment you have! David Cameron was one of the country's worst ever PMs.

 

But it's a testament to how shit bojo is that I'd take Cameron back right now. 

[RoboFox]

 

[StanSP]

Nothing like a bit of casual racism from this very 'with the times, in-tune government' 

 

 

[Greg2607]

2 hours ago, Wolfox said:

Sorry…. I feel compelled to express and extremely heart felt view as I would love for people to reflect on how god awful  Cameron was along with boy George how unnecessary and nasty their policies were

 

Cameron deserves to go down in history as one of the worst PM’s ever…. He gambled with the countries stability to settle an internal fight with the Tory party over Europe…. Agreed Farage gained traction but not seats….  Nobody in the clubs, pubs and dining rooms of Britain were seriously talking about Brexit…. It wasn’t a talking point that needed to be addressed as a nation…. Not even close

 

Furthermore…. In a bid to give the appearance of good governance they set about austerity, one of the single most damaging and spiteful policies that there ever was (my wife used to support adults with special educational needs and sacked it off to become a teacher)….   Cuts cuts and cuts only damaged the most vulnerable in society and it’s a sector that will really struggle to recover…. Money was cheap and there was no borrowing crisis (that was a complete myth)

 

He then sweeps back into the spotlight of late to show greedily he’d abused his position to have a prime seat at the trough with Greensill

 

He should be remembered in the top 3 worst PM’s in history…. I loathe the man

 

Oh yeah…. And let’s not forget he was a pig fvcker

I did caveat it with "I'm not a massive fan".

[urban.spaceman]

53 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Nothing like a bit of casual racism from this very 'with the times, in-tune government' 

 

 

Feels sorry for Williamson there as they do look almost exactly the same that it's an easy mistake to make.

[Carl the Llama]

5 hours ago, Dunge said:

Just because it’s clumsy, I wouldn’t say it’s not deliberate (particularly the pen) or that he shouldn’t take responsibility for it. Take his letterboxes line: From the context, for me, his point was to say that there shouldn’t be laws saying the burka should be banned but that it should leave people open to ridicule. He was using fruity language to make a point - a point you may disagree with but not an inherently racist one. The problem was a failure to recognise that in doing so he created a whole new insult for people to use in a racist way. His words were unsurprising of a journalist, yet unbecoming of a Prime Minister.

 

So is it clumsy, in that he didn’t appreciate the full consequences? I believe so. I don’t believe he’s so super-intelligent that he recognises the significance of every single thing that comes from either his mouth or his pen. But that to me is where he uses his persona, his caricature, his very voice to bail himself out when he does go too far. He sounds like a clown most of the time, so people go “it’s only Boris”, while they’d hold a more serious character to account. When he gaffes, it’s both unintentional and deliberate at the same time.

 

Should he take responsibility for it? Absolutely. It’s a shame on him that he’s never properly apologised for his letterbox comment.

Nah, once is a mistake if as you say he apologises for it.  But when the same guy is on record saying "Islam is the problem", talking about "watermelon smiles", reciting colonial poetry in a Burmese temple, glorifying the benefits of trading alcohol between the UK and India during a visit to a Sikh temple, it ceases to be clumsy.

[RoboFox]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

Nothing like a bit of casual racism from this very 'with the times, in-tune government' 

 

 

The fact that Alexander De Pfeffel thinks that Williamson is still fit for the job speaks volumes. The man should've gone long, long before now. 

 

He's without question the most inept excuse for a serving MP from either side of the political spectrum in my lifetime, quite comfortably. To the point I've actually found myself feeling sorry for him, he's so out of his depth. An absolute embarrassment to this government, and that takes some doing.

[StanSP]

20 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

He's without question the most inept excuse for a serving MP from either side of the political spectrum in my lifetime, quite comfortably. To the point I've actually found myself feeling sorry for him, he's so out of his depth. An absolute embarrassment to this government, and that takes some doing.

This could apply for a lot current MPs to be fair and for a moment I forgot you were talking about Williamson... 

[Dunge]

31 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Nah, once is a mistake if as you say he apologises for it.  But when the same guy is on record saying "Islam is the problem", talking about "watermelon smiles", reciting colonial poetry in a Burmese temple, glorifying the benefits of trading alcohol between the UK and India during a visit to a Sikh temple, it ceases to be clumsy.

I think it still is clumsy, all of that. But it’s more that he doesn’t care about the criticism or the controversy. It’s why I say deliberately clumsy, almost like a blonde Duke of Edinburgh lite. He’ll keep on saying or doing stuff in a fruity and controversial way and then ride the storm.

 

Granted the “Islam is the problem” quote, I can appreciate that and other things would cause great concern to Muslims given that he’s now PM. The context in which he wrote that has been shown to be naive, and his issues with Islam as a religion continuing with the letterboxes comment. But I don’t believe he has any intentions to try to act on such opinions as PM. More that he has an opinion on how Muslims should think of their religion but then leaves it there. I also appreciate my thoughts on that wouldn’t be much comfort to those directly affected or insulted. And hence why it’d be good to actually get an apology for them. But he won’t do that of course. As soon as he starts apologising, the game’s up.

[Buce]

8 hours ago, Dunge said:

Just because it’s clumsy, I wouldn’t say it’s not deliberate (particularly the pen) or that he shouldn’t take responsibility for it. Take his letterboxes line: From the context, for me, his point was to say that there shouldn’t be laws saying the burka should be banned but that it should leave people open to ridicule. He was using fruity language to make a point - a point you may disagree with but not an inherently racist one. The problem was a failure to recognise that in doing so he created a whole new insult for people to use in a racist way. His words were unsurprising of a journalist, yet unbecoming of a Prime Minister.

 

So is it clumsy, in that he didn’t appreciate the full consequences? I believe so. I don’t believe he’s so super-intelligent that he recognises the significance of every single thing that comes from either his mouth or his pen. But that to me is where he uses his persona, his caricature, his very voice to bail himself out when he does go too far. He sounds like a clown most of the time, so people go “it’s only Boris”, while they’d hold a more serious character to account. When he gaffes, it’s both unintentional and deliberate at the same time.

 

Should he take responsibility for it? Absolutely. It’s a shame on him that he’s never properly apologised for his letterbox comment.

 

Nah, he knew exactly what he was saying - it was dog-whistle politics deliberately aimed at traditional 'Red Wall' voters.

 

I don't know how old you are, Dunge, but back in the Sixties a Tory election poster proclaimed, 'If you want a n****r (my asterisks) for a neighbour, vote Labour'; playing the race card to an inherently racist population is a well worn Tory tactic.

Edited 8 September 2021 by Buce

[Dunge]

16 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Nah, he knew exactly what he was saying - it was dog-whistle politics deliberately aimed at traditional 'Red Wall' voters.

 

I don't know how old you are, Dunge, but back in the Sixties a Tory election poster proclaimed, 'If you want a n****r (my asterisks) for a neighbour, vote Labour'; playing the race card to an inherently racist population is a well worn Tory tactic.

Late 30s. And obviously I have no wish to even try to defend that.

[Sampson]

With regards to Cameron, I actually think that the 2010 election will be remembered in the history books as one of the most society-shifting elections in UK history, alongside the 1945 and 1979 ones.

Let's not forget though, that the alleged majority of LibDem voters wanted a coalition with Labour. And that the ultimate result of the 2010 election came down to the single choice of Nick Clegg.

I was usually a SDP/Lib Dem voter for most of my life up to that election.

[Footballwipe]

1 hour ago, RoboFox said:

The fact that Alexander De Pfeffel thinks that Williamson is still fit for the job speaks volumes. The man should've gone long, long before now. 

 

He's without question the most inept excuse for a serving MP from either side of the political spectrum in my lifetime, quite comfortably. To the point I've actually found myself feeling sorry for him, he's so out of his depth. An absolute embarrassment to this government, and that takes some doing.

Majority of 28,250. He's going to be on the front or back benches as an MP for some time to come yet.

[What the Fuchs?]

3 hours ago, Dunge said:

Late 30s. And obviously I have no wish to even try to defend that.

It was 1964 I think, in Smethwick. I think it may have led Malcolm X to visit the area if I remember correctly. And of course not long after that you had Enoch Powell and the ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech