Not The Politics Thread.

[foxes1988]

21 minutes ago, Milo said:

But it’s not just the UK that don’t have any drivers, is it? 

Most countries are not struggling to the degree the UK is and has been for years.

 

Due to an ageing driving population which we haven't been replacing sufficiently for years.  Well we a replaced little have using EU drivers although a large amount of these have now returned home due to Brexit and the new IR35 regs the government put into place. 

 

Then we have a higher demand for economic covid recovery and high amount of UK drivers retireing and moving out of the industry we've got a problem which isn't going away for quite a while.  Driver agencys are charging more and haulage companies are paying more.  The haulage companies due to these extra costs are putting cost up from between 25 - 60% so expect costs in shops and online for a lot of items to go up substantially in the next year.

Edited 23 September 2021 by foxes1988

[Milo]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

https://www.ft.com/content/0c4f9876-1ec5-41e1-b774-4abd2b58dde9

 

Behind a paywall. 
 

What did it say?

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Milo said:

Behind a paywall. 
 

What did it say?

It's an article predicting a worsening of issues EU-wide, but the most relevant part to our discussion is the line saying that "the UK has been hit more acutely because of Brexit, the pandemic, tax reforms and backlogs for driving tests".

[oxford blue]

18 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

No prizes for guessing why that might be.

Yes. I agree this is the result of years of haulage companies deciding to recruit agency drivers - mainly from the EU- who undercut existing British drivers. Companies have also taken their drivers for granted and expect them to sleep in their cabs, It should be a reasonable expectation drivers sleep in a hotel room if their drive necessitates an overnight stay. These companies are not alone in failing to invest in a British workforce offering and failing to invest in decent working conditions and pay. (And generally the reliance of cheap labour results in lack of investment in technology which has consequence og UK have one of worst productivity rates in western economies.

 

The backlog of tests has not helped either.

 

Just regarding EU drivers - had they intended to stay they would have applied for pre-settled or settled status. Therefore if they returned to home countries during pandemic, they could have returned had that been their intention.

 

 

[foxes1988]

2 minutes ago, oxford blue said:

Yes. I agree this is the result of years of haulage companies deciding to recruit agency drivers - mainly from the EU- who undercut existing British drivers. Companies have also taken their drivers for granted and expect them to sleep in their cabs, It should be a reasonable expectation drivers sleep in a hotel room if their drive necessitates an overnight stay. These companies are not alone in failing to invest in a British workforce offering and failing to invest in decent working conditions and pay. (And generally the reliance of cheap labour results in lack of investment in technology which has consequence og UK have one of worst productivity rates in western economies.

 

The backlog of tests has not helped either.

 

Just regarding EU drivers - had they intended to stay they would have applied for pre-settled or settled status. Therefore if they returned to home countries during pandemic, they could have returned had that been their intention.

 

 

Haulage companies use agencies for a number of different reasons but if you think its to get cheaper drivers you are very much mistaken.  Agency drivers are more expensive, usually around £4 an hour more expensive then having a driver on your books and usually much less reliable.  Remember the agency has to make money as well so how low would they have to pay drivers in order to undercut 'British drivers'.  By the way plenty of EU drivers work on the books at haulage companies and plenty of 'British drivers' work agency in fact most agency drivers are British not mainland EU nationals.

 

I know some wouldn't like it but most drivers sleeping out would prefer to to be in their own sleeper cabs that they've spent time and money kitting out then in a hotel room that someone else used the day before.  No doubt drivers have been taken for granted for years (mainly in terms of hours they have been asked and expected to work) but in general no more then industries in my experience.

 

The backlog doesn't help as you say and generally the cost of getting a licence is so expensive here.  The government does grants for all types of training schemes in other industries but have put nothing into the haulage industry for years other then giving the driver more responsibilities and requiring them to undertake more training of stuff they largely already know i.e. CPC training.

 

[Milo]

32 minutes ago, foxes1988 said:

Most countries are not struggling to the degree the UK is and has been for years.

 

Due to an ageing driving population which we haven't been replacing sufficiently for years.  Well we a replaced little have using EU drivers although a large amount of these have now returned home due to Brexit and the new IR35 regs the government put into place. 

 

Then we have a higher demand for economic covid recovery and high amount of UK drivers retireing and moving out of the industry we've got a problem which isn't going away for quite a while.  Driver agencys are charging more and haulage companies are paying more.  The haulage companies due to these extra costs are putting cost up from between 25 - 60% so expect costs in shops and online for a lot of items to go up substantially in the next year.

That's interesting.

 

Why are the jobs not being replaced? I assume it's because of pay/conditions?

 

What is the industry doing to attract younger workers?

[Milo]

32 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

It's an article predicting a worsening of issues EU-wide, but the most relevant part to our discussion is the line saying that "the UK has been hit more acutely because of Brexit, the pandemic, tax reforms and backlogs for driving tests".

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/driver-shortage-is-pan-european/

 

 

 

(Maybe not the most thrilling trade mag...)

[Carl the Llama]

33 minutes ago, Milo said:

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/driver-shortage-is-pan-european/

 

 

 

(Maybe not the most thrilling trade mag...)

Those figures confirm that the UK is experiencing the biggest impact.

[Milo]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

Those figures confirm that the UK is experiencing the biggest impact.

But it's clearly not all about Brexit, is it. 

 

I assume one of the clever statisticians on here will be able to drill down and work out what the actual impact is - according to the number of drivers per capita/amount of goods transported, etc to get a value.

 

 

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Milo said:

But it's clearly not all about Brexit, is it. 

 

I assume one of the clever statisticians on here will be able to drill down and work out what the actual impact is - according to the number of drivers per capita/amount of goods transported, etc to get a value.

 

 

If you read the page back you will see the explanations, of which Brexit is obviously one, given.

[Milo]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

If you read the page back you will see the explanations, of which Brexit is obviously one, given.

 

Agree.

 

 

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

The haulage crisis is spreading around the EU but it's hitting the UK harder than anyone else.  No prizes for guessing why that might be.

 

But that's not really what you said, is it. 

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, Milo said:

 

Agree.

 

 

 

But that's not really what you said, is it. 

I feel like you're splitting very fine hairs here if you're trying to say I'm wrong for implying Brexit as a unique-to-the-UK cause of our current problems just because like most things the issue is more complex if you dig deeper.  Brexit still having an impact as you've just agreed.

[Milo]

28 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I feel like you're splitting very fine hairs here if you're trying to say I'm wrong for implying Brexit as a unique-to-the-UK cause of our current problems just because like most things the issue is more complex if you dig deeper.  Brexit still having an impact as you've just agreed.

Like I said initially - I wasn't having a dig. I am genuinely interested in cause, effect and adaptation. 

 

And I've learned something about the haulage industry!

[foxes1988]

2 hours ago, Milo said:

That's interesting.

 

Why are the jobs not being replaced? I assume it's because of pay/conditions?

 

What is the industry doing to attract younger workers?

It's not a very attractive career in general but the general disdain and lack of respect working class jobs like this have generally had over the last 30 years doesn't help. It used 

 

Pay is ok to be fair it's more the working conditions I think puts people off and drives people out of the industry. It is very long hours for that decent pay whereas really drivers should be on the same amount of money but doing like 5-10 hours less a week.

 

Industry isn't really doing alot to get younger workers in tbh.  They often pay for the class 2 and class 1 training if the employee signs a contract that they will pay costs if they leave within a certain time period. That's not just for young drivers tbf. 

 

[Strokes]

6 hours ago, foxes1988 said:

I'm sure there are things the Tories have done wrong and could do better etc. 

 

I just picked those two things because they're quite serious situations that tend to be happening for multitude of different reasons.  For example the supply chain issues especially regarding road haulage have been brewing for about 15/20 years.  Its just Covid, Brexit etc which have exasperated this issue even more.

I don’t why anyone pro Labour is against the shortage in lorry drivers. Wages and conditions have improved enormously since labour dried up. Funny that.

[foxes1988]

54 minutes ago, Milo said:

Like I said initially - I wasn't having a dig. I am genuinely interested in cause, effect and adaptation. 

 

And I've learned something about the haulage industry!

Think this report from RHA is pretty accurate tbh

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t why anyone pro Labour is against the shortage in lorry drivers. Wages and conditions have improved enormously since labour dried up. Funny that.

 

I quite agree. We should aim to reach a situation where there is only 1 lorry driver in the country.

 

Through market forces, the working man (and I mean THE working man) will be a trillionnaire.  

[foxes1988]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t why anyone pro Labour is against the shortage in lorry drivers. Wages and conditions have improved enormously since labour dried up. Funny that.

Wages have improved and will continue to improve. Which drivers definitely deserve. I think drivers would massively disagree with you on conditions have improved. Because there's such a shortage the government relaxed some of the driving hour laws so they will feel an expectation to work even longer hours. 

 

We all just need to accept that products are going to be more expensive to pay for higher costs involved in moving these commodities

[Strokes]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

I quite agree. We should aim to reach a situation where there is only 1 lorry driver in the country.

 

Through market forces, the working man (and I mean THE working man) will be a trillionnaire.  

Well given that being in short supply puts workers in the driving seat (intended), I’d have thought you’d be a bit more understanding than condescending. Capitalism at its finest if you ask me.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, foxes1988 said:

Wages have improved and will continue to improve. Which drivers definitely deserve. I think drivers would massively disagree with you on conditions have improved. Because there's such a shortage the government relaxed some of the driving hour laws so they will feel an expectation to work even longer hours. 

 

We all just need to accept that products are going to be more expensive to pay for higher costs involved in moving these commodities

I’ve a couple of close friends and family drivers, so from my understanding they have more choice over routes and schedules than they ever had before. But they do all work at the same firm, so it’s not a big pool for reference I’ll give you.

They are delighted.

[Buce]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well given that being in short supply puts workers in the driving seat (intended), I’d have thought you’d be a bit more understanding than condescending. Capitalism at its finest if you ask me.

 

Trouble is, while the shortage of drivers is driving up wages in transport it's also driving up transport costs, so a lot of others are paying more for their groceries while still struggling on minimum wage.

 

That's before the Tax rise and home fuel price increases are taken into account.

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well given that being in short supply puts workers in the driving seat (intended), I’d have thought you’d be a bit more understanding than condescending. Capitalism at its finest if you ask me.

 

Sorry if you found me condescending and insufficiently understanding. I assumed you were taking the piss, as you sometimes do.

 

A shortage of drivers obviously puts workers still in that sector in a stronger bargaining position.

But until such time as lots of Brits become drivers, it also leads to supply shortages for consumers, logistics problems and potential threats to others businesses & jobs dependent on the delivery of parts, supplies etc. 

 

If you're going to go down the Brexit route of reducing immigrant labour, it makes sense to plan for the transition - e.g. provide incentives for more new entrants to train up as drivers (though, admittedly, Covid accelerated the EU workers' outflow).

It also makes sense to do something about an aging workforce in a particular sector (something other than importing cheap labour), as that's an obvious time bomb.

Similarly, if you're going to actively discourage foreign nurses and care workers from working in Britain, it makes sense to do something to make those careers more attractive to the British workers you want to fill the vacancies created.....maybe not cancelling the nurses' training bursary would be a start. Likewise with the replacement of EU migrant agricultural workers.

 

Personally, I believe in some degree of state intervention in the market, anyway. But even if you don't, the state has already intervened in the labour market through Brexit, so it should have the sense to continue to intervene so that, yes, workers' conditions can improve but also so that the other problems aren't caused.

 

Tory deregulated laissez-faire capitalism at its most braindead, if you ask me.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Trouble is, while the shortage of drivers is driving up wages in transport it's also driving up transport costs, so a lot of others are paying more for their groceries while still struggling on minimum wage.

 

That's before the Tax rise and home fuel price increases are taken into account.

Currently yes but as immigration is slowing the same will happen to all the traditional minimum wage jobs. That are key workers.

 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Sorry if you found me condescending and insufficiently understanding. I assumed you were taking the piss, as you sometimes do.

 

A shortage of drivers obviously puts workers still in that sector in a stronger bargaining position.

But until such time as lots of Brits become drivers, it also leads to supply shortages for consumers, logistics problems and potential threats to others businesses & jobs dependent on the delivery of parts, supplies etc. 

 

If you're going to go down the Brexit route of reducing immigrant labour, it makes sense to plan for the transition - e.g. provide incentives for more new entrants to train up as drivers (though, admittedly, Covid accelerated the EU workers' outflow).

It also makes sense to do something about an aging workforce in a particular sector (something other than importing cheap labour), as that's an obvious time bomb.

Similarly, if you're going to actively discourage foreign nurses and care workers from working in Britain, it makes sense to do something to make those careers more attractive to the British workers you want to fill the vacancies created.....maybe not cancelling the nurses' training bursary would be a start. Likewise with the replacement of EU migrant agricultural workers.

 

Personally, I believe in some degree of state intervention in the market, anyway. But even if you don't, the state has already intervened in the labour market through Brexit, so it should have the sense to continue to intervene so that, yes, workers' conditions can improve but also so that the other problems aren't caused.

 

Tory deregulated laissez-faire capitalism at its most braindead, if you ask me.

Sorry mate, even my reply was half serious. I’m currently half wasted after being at funeral since 11am.

Ignore me if you want serious debate, I’m just fishing for reactions tbh.

 

As for the rest, I hope it solves the obesity crisis.

Edited 23 September 2021 by Strokes

[Soar Fox]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Sorry mate, even my reply was half serious. I’m currently half wasted after being at funeral since 11am.

Ignore me if you want serious debate, I’m just fishing for reactions tbh.

What a fun life you must lead if you get your kicks from trying to wind people up just for your pleasure.