Not The Politics Thread.

[CosbehFox]

Generally in my experience a lot of professional trainee jobs have a 24 month clawback on them, all training fees are pro rata paid off. I.e. you need to do two years of work, you leave, you back whatever is remaining within that two years. Pretty good principle I think. 

 

It's all about that employee and employer relationship what has been ebbed away at for years. A gentleman who runs a removals firm was on 5live about this today - living wage, ensuring he is not on 1.5 more than the lowest paid member of staff etc and as a result morale is good, turnover is lower and absences reduced significantly. 

[Strokes]

17 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

People leaving after you've trained them is the risk you take to get the skills you need. Engineering firms are going through the exact same thing. A whole generation of engineers was wiped out when manufacturing shifted overseas. If you want a decent engineer now, you take on an apprentice and you teach them. Can they up sticks and waste years of investment and dealing with all their mistakes? Of course they can, but by the time that happens, there's usually mutual respect between the employer (happy to get a new worker) and the employee (happy to have a chance at a decent living). 

 

If these countrywide titans started giving the slightest of shits about the people that work under them, and started treating them like humans and training them and investing in them, their workforce problems would diminish.

 

And we'd all be better for it. 

They’ve had it so easy for so long they don’t know how too, the power has suddenly shifted into the employees favour and it’s the left wingers up in arms. Beggars belief.

[Innovindil]

16 minutes ago, LVocey said:

I 100% agree with this...but I fear there are thought patterns far too entrenched for that to be the case.

Of course there are and I agree, it won't come easy. The combined financial power of these companies, paired with a very visible ability to disrupt "average Joe's" life will see them kick up a fight. I say let them, and see where we are after the tantrums have ended. 

[Alf Bentley]

I wonder if labour shortages in some sectors are cultural and wouldn't necessarily be resolved by either higher wages or employers investing more in training.

 

Let's look at some shortage jobs: HGV drivers, slaughterhouse workers, nurses, care workers and seasonal agricultural workers.

 

- HGV drivers: Over the longer-term, better pay and more training might help but I wonder if it'll bridge the gap? Many ex-drivers say they left the industry due not to pay or training but to poor working conditions - everything from long hours and time away from home to poor truck stops, sleeping in the cab and being badly treated by employers and customers. Some of that could be resolved, but unsociable hours and nights away from home isn't so easy to change without a total reorganisation of the industry. There has also been a cultural change in the role of husbands/fathers in recent decades: single men might not mind such hours in return for good pay and older family men might have grown up finding it acceptable to spend a lot of time away from partner and kids, but most family men in their 20s, 30s or 40s now surely see it as important to spend a lot of time with their family.....even much higher pay might only attract a few.

 

- Slaughterhouse workers: Sounds like hard, dirty, unpleasant work to me - and many others, I expect. I'm not a veggie or massive animal lover, but someone would still have to pay me an awful lot to work killing animals and chopping them up and I doubt I'd stay in the job long. So long as there are other jobs available that pay a similar wage or even a significantly lower wage, I suspect an awful lot of people would steer clear of a career in a slaughterhouse.

 

- Nurses: Plenty have a vocation for nursing, but still not enough when we have an aging population and are apparently unhappy at the number of foreign nurses taking jobs. Here the employer (indirectly) is the Govt - and they've actively made it harder to obtain training by removing nurses' training bursaries. Reversing that policy might help, as might a large pay rise for nurses - but the Govt opposes that, too. Plus, training a nurse takes several years, so we're talking about long-term solutions only.

 

- Care workers: As my Dad needed care in his last 18 months, I have some experience of this, caring for him myself alternative weekends and seeing the great work done by the professional care workers, for whom I have massive respect. They deserve much higher pay, which might attract a few more to such work. But again the nature of the work - dealing with excrement, body washes, dementia etc. - would put a lot off. I wouldn't have the patience to do it, even assuming I could overcome the squeamishness. Then there are the hours: the nature of the work means some of it has to involve early morning, evening and nightwork that would put many people off. Plus much higher pay for care workers leads to higher fees payable either by families or by the state (and the recently announced NHS/social care spending does little for that, mainly going on NHS catch-up spending and subsidising inheritance for those with more valuable properties).

 

- Seasonal agricultural workers: I did a lot of this as a young man and quite enjoyed it, but suspect there's been a cultural shift. When I did such work (late 70s/early-mid-80s), there were few foreigners, mainly students, housewives, gypsies & unemployed. Do any or many young Brits choose to do such work now? Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression most looking for such temporary/casual work would prefer to do office temping, Deliveroo deliveries, factory/warehouse work, takeaway joints etc. Seasonal agricultural work requires little training. But even if pay was greatly increased, would younger people be attracted to do it?

 

There was much Brexiteer resentment at migrant EU labour taking jobs and forcing down pay. But if pay does increase greatly, I wonder how many Brits will really want to kip the night in an HGV cab away from family or slaughter pigs or wipe arses and cope with dementia in a care home or even pick spuds in the rain in a muddy field? Maybe a desire for such work wasn't really a motivating force for the Brexit vote?

 

 

[Dunge]

4 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I wonder if labour shortages in some sectors are cultural and wouldn't necessarily be resolved by either higher wages or employers investing more in training.

 

Let's look at some shortage jobs: HGV drivers, slaughterhouse workers, nurses, care workers and seasonal agricultural workers.

 

- HGV drivers: Over the longer-term, better pay and more training might help but I wonder if it'll bridge the gap? Many ex-drivers say they left the industry due not to pay or training but to poor working conditions - everything from long hours and time away from home to poor truck stops, sleeping in the cab and being badly treated by employers and customers. Some of that could be resolved, but unsociable hours and nights away from home isn't so easy to change without a total reorganisation of the industry. There has also been a cultural change in the role of husbands/fathers in recent decades: single men might not mind such hours in return for good pay and older family men might have grown up finding it acceptable to spend a lot of time away from partner and kids, but most family men in their 20s, 30s or 40s now surely see it as important to spend a lot of time with their family.....even much higher pay might only attract a few.

 

- Slaughterhouse workers: Sounds like hard, dirty, unpleasant work to me - and many others, I expect. I'm not a veggie or massive animal lover, but someone would still have to pay me an awful lot to work killing animals and chopping them up and I doubt I'd stay in the job long. So long as there are other jobs available that pay a similar wage or even a significantly lower wage, I suspect an awful lot of people would steer clear of a career in a slaughterhouse.

 

- Nurses: Plenty have a vocation for nursing, but still not enough when we have an aging population and are apparently unhappy at the number of foreign nurses taking jobs. Here the employer (indirectly) is the Govt - and they've actively made it harder to obtain training by removing nurses' training bursaries. Reversing that policy might help, as might a large pay rise for nurses - but the Govt opposes that, too. Plus, training a nurse takes several years, so we're talking about long-term solutions only.

 

- Care workers: As my Dad needed care in his last 18 months, I have some experience of this, caring for him myself alternative weekends and seeing the great work done by the professional care workers, for whom I have massive respect. They deserve much higher pay, which might attract a few more to such work. But again the nature of the work - dealing with excrement, body washes, dementia etc. - would put a lot off. I wouldn't have the patience to do it, even assuming I could overcome the squeamishness. Then there are the hours: the nature of the work means some of it has to involve early morning, evening and nightwork that would put many people off. Plus much higher pay for care workers leads to higher fees payable either by families or by the state (and the recently announced NHS/social care spending does little for that, mainly going on NHS catch-up spending and subsidising inheritance for those with more valuable properties).

 

- Seasonal agricultural workers: I did a lot of this as a young man and quite enjoyed it, but suspect there's been a cultural shift. When I did such work (late 70s/early-mid-80s), there were few foreigners, mainly students, housewives, gypsies & unemployed. Do any or many young Brits choose to do such work now? Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression most looking for such temporary/casual work would prefer to do office temping, Deliveroo deliveries, factory/warehouse work, takeaway joints etc. Seasonal agricultural work requires little training. But even if pay was greatly increased, would younger people be attracted to do it?

 

There was much Brexiteer resentment at migrant EU labour taking jobs and forcing down pay. But if pay does increase greatly, I wonder how many Brits will really want to kip the night in an HGV cab away from family or slaughter pigs or wipe arses and cope with dementia in a care home or even pick spuds in the rain in a muddy field? Maybe a desire for such work wasn't really a motivating force for the Brexit vote?

 

 

I think that’ll depend on the job and the sector.

 

On HGVs for instance, I think the government are seriously missing the working conditions element. It’s an area that’s been part of a big efficiency drive, with cameras pointing everywhere and, in some places, punishments for not meeting deadlines. Regardless of pay, it sounds like a miserable business to be in. Much like the Tories’ “back to the office” message, it feels stuck in the past and with little appreciation of the fact that people want more than just a wage - they want at least some enjoyment of and pride in what they’re doing. They’re behind the times on what needs to be done here.

 

With nurses, there’s similarly an argument for better conditions, but I think that’s mainly an issue of staffing levels. Finding new HGV drivers should, theoretically, be possible in this country with the right policies and offers. For nursing, while promoting the occupation internally is part of it, surely immigration remains an imperative. (Anyone who thought that Brexit was going to stop immigration is going to be disappointed.) For nurses and doctors, it has been thus for many years and shall continue to be so.

 

For fruit picking, I suspect the answer will be different again, in the form of technological advancements - again government can take a lead in subsidising this.

 

So I think it depends on the sector, but government should be looking to assist even if it holds firm on not opening doors for immigration to solve problems.

 

I should add that I think the most difficult sector is social care. I don’t have even a half-answer for that and I don’t envy any government trying to fix it.

[Innovindil]

13 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

There was much Brexiteer resentment at migrant EU labour taking jobs and forcing down pay. But if pay does increase greatly, I wonder how many Brits will really want to kip the night in an HGV cab away from family or slaughter pigs or wipe arses and cope with dementia in a care home or even pick spuds in the rain in a muddy field? Maybe a desire for such work wasn't really a motivating force for the Brexit vote?

Tbh I've got British friends who drive HGV's and my missus works in a care home. The desire is there, the pay, and more importantly, the respect that comes with it, are not. 

 

And the reality is, these pay rises aren't limited to the problem groups you seem to be focusing on, they will and are spreading to every person in the service industry as a whole. Y'know, the very people you lot want to empower by raising the minimum wage, instead of tackling the actual problem, you are absolutely right it's not just about money, it's about respect too. 

 

And  you seem to be obsessed with some "gotcha" frame of mind when it comes to Brits not wanting these jobs, when there is enough evidence out there they do, but why slaughter chickens or pick fruits for minimum wage when you can doss around in a coffee shop for equal pay. Why accept £12 an hour driving a HGV then having to shit in a bush when you can do a million other mildly skilled jobs for better pay, better hours and not be treated like a cvnt. 

[Strokes]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I wonder if labour shortages in some sectors are cultural and wouldn't necessarily be resolved by either higher wages or employers investing more in training.

 

Let's look at some shortage jobs: HGV drivers, slaughterhouse workers, nurses, care workers and seasonal agricultural workers.

 

- HGV drivers: Over the longer-term, better pay and more training might help but I wonder if it'll bridge the gap? Many ex-drivers say they left the industry due not to pay or training but to poor working conditions - everything from long hours and time away from home to poor truck stops, sleeping in the cab and being badly treated by employers and customers. Some of that could be resolved, but unsociable hours and nights away from home isn't so easy to change without a total reorganisation of the industry. There has also been a cultural change in the role of husbands/fathers in recent decades: single men might not mind such hours in return for good pay and older family men might have grown up finding it acceptable to spend a lot of time away from partner and kids, but most family men in their 20s, 30s or 40s now surely see it as important to spend a lot of time with their family.....even much higher pay might only attract a few.

 

- Slaughterhouse workers: Sounds like hard, dirty, unpleasant work to me - and many others, I expect. I'm not a veggie or massive animal lover, but someone would still have to pay me an awful lot to work killing animals and chopping them up and I doubt I'd stay in the job long. So long as there are other jobs available that pay a similar wage or even a significantly lower wage, I suspect an awful lot of people would steer clear of a career in a slaughterhouse.

 

- Nurses: Plenty have a vocation for nursing, but still not enough when we have an aging population and are apparently unhappy at the number of foreign nurses taking jobs. Here the employer (indirectly) is the Govt - and they've actively made it harder to obtain training by removing nurses' training bursaries. Reversing that policy might help, as might a large pay rise for nurses - but the Govt opposes that, too. Plus, training a nurse takes several years, so we're talking about long-term solutions only.

 

- Care workers: As my Dad needed care in his last 18 months, I have some experience of this, caring for him myself alternative weekends and seeing the great work done by the professional care workers, for whom I have massive respect. They deserve much higher pay, which might attract a few more to such work. But again the nature of the work - dealing with excrement, body washes, dementia etc. - would put a lot off. I wouldn't have the patience to do it, even assuming I could overcome the squeamishness. Then there are the hours: the nature of the work means some of it has to involve early morning, evening and nightwork that would put many people off. Plus much higher pay for care workers leads to higher fees payable either by families or by the state (and the recently announced NHS/social care spending does little for that, mainly going on NHS catch-up spending and subsidising inheritance for those with more valuable properties).

 

- Seasonal agricultural workers: I did a lot of this as a young man and quite enjoyed it, but suspect there's been a cultural shift. When I did such work (late 70s/early-mid-80s), there were few foreigners, mainly students, housewives, gypsies & unemployed. Do any or many young Brits choose to do such work now? Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression most looking for such temporary/casual work would prefer to do office temping, Deliveroo deliveries, factory/warehouse work, takeaway joints etc. Seasonal agricultural work requires little training. But even if pay was greatly increased, would younger people be attracted to do it?

 

There was much Brexiteer resentment at migrant EU labour taking jobs and forcing down pay. But if pay does increase greatly, I wonder how many Brits will really want to kip the night in an HGV cab away from family or slaughter pigs or wipe arses and cope with dementia in a care home or even pick spuds in the rain in a muddy field? Maybe a desire for such work wasn't really a motivating force for the Brexit vote?

 

 

If the jobs are so unsavoury and I’m not doubting any of this, don’t you think the employers have had it too easy as not to improve conditions since having Labour on tap? It’s up to the employers to now find out why they can’t attract brits and then adapt, improve and overcome. If not they rightly face extinction for being archaic.

Brits will have naturally moved away from these jobs over the years as foreign workers accepted conditions and wages they would not.

[Scotch]

38 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Tbh I've got British friends who drive HGV's and my missus works in a care home. The desire is there, the pay, and more importantly, the respect that comes with it, are not. 

 

And the reality is, these pay rises aren't limited to the problem groups you seem to be focusing on, they will and are spreading to every person in the service industry as a whole. Y'know, the very people you lot want to empower by raising the minimum wage, instead of tackling the actual problem, you are absolutely right it's not just about money, it's about respect too. 

 

And  you seem to be obsessed with some "gotcha" frame of mind when it comes to Brits not wanting these jobs, when there is enough evidence out there they do, but why slaughter chickens or pick fruits for minimum wage when you can doss around in a coffee shop for equal pay. Why accept £12 an hour driving a HGV then having to shit in a bush when you can do a million other mildly skilled jobs for better pay, better hours and not be treated like a cvnt. 

The problem goes well beyond the sh!t jobs already mentioned. I work in a petrol station in a fairly small town. Nice easy job. Can get a little hectic in the summer months with day trippers considering we are a sole worker station and work 1 man shifts but all in all, it's a nice easy gig. 

 

We are constantly short handed despite the fact that we are owned by an oil giant so wages are always on time, my manager is great at what she does and gives you slack when needed and more importantly, we pay national living wage instead of national min wage so it's £9.50 an hour. 

 

Yet, everytime we hire someone (usually someone between 18-20) they  end up leaving even after my manager puts up with them being unexcusably crap at their job due to their laziness. 

 

 

[Corky]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/mps-need-pay-rise-living-25151733

 

Why don't they just work more hours?

 

Not from home, though. That's real bad.

[Alf Bentley]

12 minutes ago, Dunge said:

 

With nurses, there’s similarly an argument for better conditions, but I think that’s mainly an issue of staffing levels. Finding new HGV drivers should, theoretically, be possible in this country with the right policies and offers. For nursing, while promoting the occupation internally is part of it, surely immigration remains an imperative. (Anyone who thought that Brexit was going to stop immigration is going to be disappointed.) For nurses and doctors, it has been thus for many years and shall continue to be so.

 

For fruit picking, I suspect the answer will be different again, in the form of technological advancements - again government can take a lead in subsidising this.

 

So I think it depends on the sector, but government should be looking to assist even if it holds firm on not opening doors for immigration to solve problems.

 

 

You might well be right that foreign nurses will still be required (qualified doctors get in anyway via post-Brexit visas, I think). But, of the 5 occupations I raised, nursing is the one where the "cultural" obstacles should be fewest. It's a profession held in high esteem that many want to join. I'm sure staffing levels are an issue undermining working conditions, but that's largely down to inadequate public spending, isn't it? Though, of course, employing more nurses would imply tax rises at some point. Access to the profession is also obstructed by the removal of training bursaries - that seems downright barmy if there's a desire to reduce numbers of foreign nurses and encourage more Brits into the profession.

 

I'm sure there's some scope for technological advancements in fruit picking, but suspect it may be limited - and this is a job that I did, albeit a long time ago. Strawberries & raspberries are delicate fruit scattered randomly throughout plants, apples similar to a large extent (easily bruised). Spuds were dug up mechanically even in the 80s and left scattered - maybe some vehicle with a shovel might be able to pick them up, but not straightforward. They tried to introduce mechanisation into French grape-picking years ago, but it was only successful in limited areas as difficult on slopes and can't risk damaging the vines. If cultural factors mean a lack of seasonal agricultural workers, maybe farmers will switch to farming that doesn't require much labour (e.g. arable or livestock farming), but that's not always possible due to soil, climate etc. Or maybe they'll simply sell the land to be used for other purposes, meaning we have to import more of food and other crops?

 

6 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Tbh I've got British friends who drive HGV's and my missus works in a care home. The desire is there, the pay, and more importantly, the respect that comes with it, are not. 

 

And the reality is, these pay rises aren't limited to the problem groups you seem to be focusing on, they will and are spreading to every person in the service industry as a whole. Y'know, the very people you lot want to empower by raising the minimum wage, instead of tackling the actual problem, you are absolutely right it's not just about money, it's about respect too. 

 

And  you seem to be obsessed with some "gotcha" frame of mind when it comes to Brits not wanting these jobs, when there is enough evidence out there they do, but why slaughter chickens or pick fruits for minimum wage when you can doss around in a coffee shop for equal pay. Why accept £12 an hour driving a HGV then having to shit in a bush when you can do a million other mildly skilled jobs for better pay, better hours and not be treated like a cvnt. 

 

I'm sure higher pay will help attract more drivers and care workers - I'm just not sure it will attract enough, due to issues like the disruption to family life (HGVs) and work that many see as unpleasant (care work, slaughterhouses). I'm not sure how you address a lack of respect - any ideas? Since seeing care workers look after my Dad at first hand, I genuinely have massive respect for them to the extent that I'll feel in their debt forever. But I suspect a lot of people, like me, respect care workers but would not want to do their job. Are HGV drivers disrespected? Not by the public, surely - it's an important job. Disrespect from employers and customers might be more of an issue - perhaps partly due to all the "just-in-time" and long hours culture?

 

I don't know who you mean referring to "you lot". I speak only for myself and have said nothing about the minimum wage. For what it's worth, I think some increase would be good but supported Starmer's rejection of left-wing demands for £15 per hour across the board. I'm not sure I understand the point you're making about pay rises spreading to everyone in the service industry - could you explain?

 

I don't think I have a "gotcha" frame of mind re. Brits not wanting to do these jobs. I was just trying to analyse the problem, not blame anyone. I wouldn't have the patience to be a care worker or a nurse, would find it unpleasant to be a slaughterman and wouldn't have wanted to be kipping in an HGV cab when I had a family (wouldn't have minded when I was young - or maybe now, if I had a driving licence). If young people now prefer other casual work to fruit picking, I don't pass judgment on them for that - I was just noting what seems to be a cultural change that might mean increased pay doesn't address the problem. I agree with your "treated like a cvnt" comparisons - indeed I've made similar points about job conditions - but am not sure why you're making that point at me, given that I'm not in a "gotcha" frame of mind.

 

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If the jobs are so unsavoury and I’m not doubting any of this, don’t you think the employers have had it too easy as not to improve conditions since having Labour on tap? It’s up to the employers to now find out why they can’t attract brits and then adapt, improve and overcome. If not they rightly face extinction for being archaic.

Brits will have naturally moved away from these jobs over the years as foreign workers accepted conditions and wages they would not.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said there. Employers improving pay and working conditions is important, even if that involves higher prices and/or higher taxes. Govt also has a role to play in that by investing in some (not all) training, investing in infrastructure and legislating/acting to protect minimum working conditions - rather than seeking to avoid or dilute such protections, as Tory Govts did when we were in the EU.

 

But I suspect that some jobs will remain unattractive to a lot of people (including me, I'm not being judgmental) even with better pay and working conditions. Some have a vocation for care work or are happy to slaughter animals, but many don't and, as Innovindil says, they'll choose other jobs they deem more pleasant if that choice is available.

 

Some employers or even whole sectors could be allowed to become extinct, but I'm not sure how we could handle a permanent shortage of care workers or slaughtermen. 

[Towelie]

14 minutes ago, Corky said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/mps-need-pay-rise-living-25151733

 

Why don't they just work more hours?

 

Not from home, though. That's real bad.

It's no surprise and it's why the keep banging on that wages are rising at the moment - it's only so they can give themselves another huge pay rise.

 

The crazy thing is a lot of people will probably agree with it and they'll say Johnson deserves it as he's tried really hard and covid wasn't his fault!?!

[bovril]

surely the point is there are better ways of improving pay and conditions than erecting trade barriers and threatening the territorial integrity of your country 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

surely the point is there are better ways of improving pay and conditions than erecting trade barriers and threatening the territorial integrity of your country 

Well yes, we could have negotiated an end to FOM without leaving the EU but it wasn’t ever an option.

Something about eating cake if I recall.

The territorial integrity is definitely something of regret IMO but I’m not too concerned about trade barriers, they can also be a good thing.

[bovril]

Just now, Strokes said:

Well yes, we could have negotiated an end to FOM without leaving the EU but it wasn’t ever an option.

Something about eating cake if I recall.

The territorial integrity is definitely something of regret IMO but I’m not too concerned about trade barriers, they can also be a good thing.

We couldn't have negotiated FoM while in the single market, which is where the territorial integrity bit comes in. 

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, bovril said:

We couldn't have negotiated FoM while in the single market, which is where the territorial integrity bit comes in. 

Sorry I thought you were talking about Ireland.

But you’re right we couldn’t renegotiate FOM without leaving the single market. That’s my point, the Labour supply is what’s holding back wages and conditions. 
People leaving a former communist Poland might not baulk at what we consider poor wages and conditions and so things didn’t have to improve at the rate they should have.

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Sorry I thought you were talking about Ireland.

 

I was. Seems like handing over part of our territory is a bit much just to raise truckers wages but admittedly I'm not a trucker. 

[Claridge]

On 05/10/2021 at 12:53, Strokes said:

Without Blair, a conservative in your eyes, Labour have not won an election for nearly 50 years.

Its impossible to know what characteristics they hold, they’ve reinvented themselves 4 times in my lifetime and bounce from one side to the other.

How do we know what Labour Party we will be getting?

The Labour one before Blair was easily the worst this country has ever had. Anyone who remembers them will tell you that, that’s why older people don’t vote labour

[Strokes]

40 minutes ago, bovril said:

I was. Seems like handing over part of our territory is a bit much just to raise truckers wages but admittedly I'm not a trucker. 

Your not northern Irish though either are you?

[What the Fuchs?]

23 minutes ago, Claridge said:

The Labour one before Blair was easily the worst this country has ever had. Anyone who remembers them will tell you that, that’s why older people don’t vote labour

It’s a matter of opinion of course, I’ve defended Callaghan on here before, and according to the experts he was not a bad prime minister - joint rating alongside Major and Churchill (1951-55) - but was largely a victim of circumstances much the same way as Jimmy Carter is viewed nowadays by historians. Anthony Eden was far worse. Funnily enough May and Cameron are near or at the bottom, Johnson will probably go the same way as he’s certainly not better than them, to put it mildly

 

https://www.psa.ac.uk/psa/news/theresa-may-joint-worst-post-war-prime-minister-say-historians-and-politics-professors

[Sampson]

11 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Generally in my experience a lot of professional trainee jobs have a 24 month clawback on them, all training fees are pro rata paid off. I.e. you need to do two years of work, you leave, you back whatever is remaining within that two years. Pretty good principle I think. 

 

It's all about that employee and employer relationship what has been ebbed away at for years. A gentleman who runs a removals firm was on 5live about this today - living wage, ensuring he is not on 1.5 more than the lowest paid member of staff etc and as a result morale is good, turnover is lower and absences reduced significantly. 

I've seen these contracts too about in recent years. They strike me as feeling a bit immoral though.

 

The idea that someone should have to pay, sometimes thousands of pounds, for leaving work - which could be for all manner of reasons relating to sick family members, mental health or falling in love and wanting to move to another part of the country with someone just definitely feels like trapping someone into employment which has a tinge (though I'm not claiming its the whole hog) of slavery about it.

 

I dunno, the whole thing just feels very iffy to me.

[Sampson]

11 hours ago, Strokes said:

They’ve had it so easy for so long they don’t know how too, the power has suddenly shifted into the employees favour and it’s the left wingers up in arms. Beggars belief.

I don't think so. I think you're only thinking in very nationalistic, short-term goals, which I doubt many on the Left see the point of the EU. The ultimate goal of the Left has always been a borderless, stateless society which is ultimately the idea of the EU.

 

I think the EU has unquestionably pulled people out of poverty as a whole. Most of the forner Communist countries in Eastern Europe and the former fascist dictatorships in Iberia have unquestionably had their way of life and economy go through the roof.

 

I think most on the Left wouldn't be saying "look how this Polish man came and drove the wages of a rich country down" they'd be saying "look how a rich country helped a Polish person improve his quality of life and wouldn't be saying that a British person deserves more economic favour just because they lucky enough to be born inside a set of imaginary lines than a rich person.

 

I mean, you go to Prague or Warsaw or Bucharest now and they're becoming rich countries - certainly it will take time for them to get there but I doubt the Left would really be advocating the EU being a rich boy's club and fencing off parts of life to other human beings as you are suggesting.

 

The success of Brexit only being measured on how the UK economy survives and not how UK can help the economies of poorer nations or how humans can connect together and end tribalism or how work being the sole obsession of every little tribes identity doesn't seem like a very left-wing idea to me at all.

 

I think most on the Left would be extremely pro-the end of the nation state which is clearly the long-term objective of the EU. 

[Magictv]

This is a shame

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599

[urban.spaceman]

Which section shall we put the LGBT Conservatives at the conference?

 

 

The organiser:

[leicsmac]

50 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Which section shall we put the LGBT Conservatives at the conference?

 

 

The organiser:

That is either a remarkable piece of trolling or a total lack of historical awareness. I wonder which?

[Strokes]

23 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That is either a remarkable piece of trolling or a total lack of historical awareness. I wonder which?

What am I missing?