Not The Politics Thread.

[Voll Blau]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

What am I missing?

Section 28. Just worked it out after quite a while.

 

Honest mistake in this case.

[Buce]

33 minutes ago, Strokes said:

What am I missing?

 

How much time have you got?

[Strokes]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

How much time have you got?

Not a lot, as brief as possible please?

[FoxesDeb]

44 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Section 28. Just worked it out after quite a while.

 

Honest mistake in this case.

Thanks, I couldn't see it either. 

[Strokes]

Just now, FoxesDeb said:

Thanks, I couldn't see it either. 

Yeah I got it now.

[Carl the Llama]

Here doggy doggy

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Party Conferences Bounce 

 

 

[What the Fuchs?]

On the same day the Tories cut Universal Credit for the most vulnerable plunging many into poverty, Tory MP Sir Peter Bottomley claims MPs face a “grim” struggle and it’s “desperately difficult” living on an £82,000 salary and that they should be paid at least £100,000-115,000 a year.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tory-mp-sir-peter-bottomley-grim-82k-pounds-pay-rise-b959174.html%3famp

Edited 7 October 2021 by What the Fuchs?

[Alf Bentley]

54 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Party Conferences Bounce 

 

 

 

So, the Labour and Tory party conferences gave a boost to.................. the Lib Dems! 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

So, the Labour and Tory party conferences gave a boost to.................. the Lib Dems! 

"Go back to your constituencies, and prepare for government!" ~ David Steel   Ed Davey

[Claridge]

19 hours ago, What the Fuchs? said:

It’s a matter of opinion of course, I’ve defended Callaghan on here before, and according to the experts he was not a bad prime minister - joint rating alongside Major and Churchill (1951-55) - but was largely a victim of circumstances much the same way as Jimmy Carter is viewed nowadays by historians. Anthony Eden was far worse. Funnily enough May and Cameron are near or at the bottom, Johnson will probably go the same way as he’s certainly not better than them, to put it mildly

 

https://www.psa.ac.uk/psa/news/theresa-may-joint-worst-post-war-prime-minister-say-historians-and-politics-professors

Funnily enough there is still a conservative government after May and Cameron, Labour still feel the resentment from the Callaghan years 40 years later, no comparrison

[What the Fuchs?]

1 hour ago, Claridge said:

Funnily enough there is still a conservative government after May and Cameron, Labour still feel the resentment from the Callaghan years 40 years later, no comparrison

Perception, narratives and their impact on memory and intuition are more important than reality in politics, unfortunate but true. The Tories are more easily able to control these narratives historically through friendly media outlets and astronomical funding from millionaires and billionaires looking to defend their interests. There’s a reason why every election the burden is on Labour to offer transformative policies while the Tories run on negative “elect us otherwise Labour will do this” or “Labour can’t be trusted with the economy etc” platforms, even though the Conservatives in reality usually leave us with more debt and volatile economies with less rights for workers. Narratives are more impactful on voters than reality. Though I still don’t think that many people think of things that happened almost 50 years ago when elections happen nowadays.

[oxford blue]

1 hour ago, Claridge said:

Labour still feel the resentment from the Callaghan years 40 years later, no comparrison

I think I am missing the point that you are making when subsequently was over 10 years of a Blair government? It was his decision to support Bush in the Iraq war that may still affect some voters' voting. However, haven't Labour become too much of a metropolitan elite? Oxford, for example, is a Labour stronghold, with the Lib Dems the only party to run them close in the election after the decision for the Iraq war

[HighPeakFox]

Please don't try to tell me the Labour are somehow more of a 'metropolitan elite' than the entitled, rich, Etonians who've had their hands on all the power since forever - even when Blair was in situ.

[What the Fuchs?]

4 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Please don't try to tell me the Labour are somehow more of a 'metropolitan elite' than the entitled, rich, Etonians who've had their hands on all the power since forever - even when Blair was in situ.

This is exactly the point that always irks me - “Labour are a bunch of champagne socialists, so I’m gonna vote for the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, cos you know these public school millionaire landlords on the boards of oil companies and the like are just like me”

[Parafox]

9 minutes ago, What the Fuchs? said:

This is exactly the point that always irks me - “Labour are a bunch of champagne socialists, so I’m gonna vote for the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, cos you know these public school millionaire landlords on the boards of oil companies and the like are just like me”

I get the point and I feel generally the same. That said, there's very few high level politicians of the mainstream parties that are "just like me/us".

IMO most are self-serving and will do more or less anything to gain a bit of power and control. Those that aren't never get anywhere but will work tirelessly for their constituents. Unfortunately, they aren't high profile enough to make Question Time or Andrew Marr's show and get very little chance to put themselves across to the wider voting public unless it's a local election which, generally, has little impact on the votes in a national election.

 

[HighPeakFox]

27 minutes ago, Parafox said:

I get the point and I feel generally the same. That said, there's very few high level politicians of the mainstream parties that are "just like me/us".

IMO most are self-serving and will do more or less anything to gain a bit of power and control. Those that aren't never get anywhere but will work tirelessly for their constituents. Unfortunately, they aren't high profile enough to make Question Time or Andrew Marr's show and get very little chance to put themselves across to the wider voting public unless it's a local election which, generally, has little impact on the votes in a national election.

 

Corbyn is and was an excellent and tireless constituency MP, and a keen anti-racist - look what they did to him.

[Dunge]

Unpopular opinion alert:

Ed Milliband got far more unfair treatment from the media than Jeremy Corbyn did.

Justification:

Milliband got attacked on his father’s politics, the way he (fairly) became leader at the expense of his brother, and many, many assaults simply on his looks, all while he didn’t do an awful lot wrong except for the creation of the “Edstone” that backfired on him massively.

 

Corbyn meanwhile, while there were occasional high profile incidents such as the nonsense of alleged links with Czech spies, a lot of the time he was just being called out on his held beliefs, statements and actions. What his supporters didn’t like is that many people simply didn’t agree with him.

[HighPeakFox]

51 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Unpopular opinion alert:

Ed Milliband got far more unfair treatment from the media than Jeremy Corbyn did.

Justification:

Milliband got attacked on his father’s politics, the way he (fairly) became leader at the expense of his brother, and many, many assaults simply on his looks, all while he didn’t do an awful lot wrong except for the creation of the “Edstone” that backfired on him massively.

 

Corbyn meanwhile, while there were occasional high profile incidents such as the nonsense of alleged links with Czech spies, a lot of the time he was just being called out on his held beliefs, statements and actions. What his supporters didn’t like is that many people simply didn’t agree with him.

They both got shockingly biased treatment. The sad irony is that Milliband's treatment bordered on anti-Semitism, which the same people then accused Corbyn of. Corbyn was the victim of the most sustained hatchet job I have ever experienced, regardless of whether or not one agreed with his politics.

[ealingfox]

1 hour ago, Dunge said:

Unpopular opinion alert:

Ed Milliband got far more unfair treatment from the media than Jeremy Corbyn did.

Justification:

Milliband got attacked on his father’s politics, the way he (fairly) became leader at the expense of his brother, and many, many assaults simply on his looks, all while he didn’t do an awful lot wrong except for the creation of the “Edstone” that backfired on him massively.

 

Corbyn meanwhile, while there were occasional high profile incidents such as the nonsense of alleged links with Czech spies, a lot of the time he was just being called out on his held beliefs, statements and actions. What his supporters didn’t like is that many people simply didn’t agree with him.

 

 

His held beliefs like wearing ties and riding bikes.

[eblair]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

They both got shockingly biased treatment. The sad irony is that Milliband's treatment bordered on anti-Semitism, which the same people then accused Corbyn of. Corbyn was the victim of the most sustained hatchet job I have ever experienced, regardless of whether or not one agreed with his politics.

‘Accused corbyn of…’

 

bloke defended a mural which looked like Goebbels had drawn himself. Has appeared defending or alongside some of worst people on planet. Managed to transform the Labour Party to a place where delegates start ranting about the current leaders Jewish wife. 
 

Bloke is repugnant 

[What the Fuchs?]

51 minutes ago, eblair said:

‘Accused corbyn of…’

 

bloke defended a mural which looked like Goebbels had drawn himself. Has appeared defending or alongside some of worst people on planet. Managed to transform the Labour Party to a place where delegates start ranting about the current leaders Jewish wife. 
 

Bloke is repugnant 

Though I don’t see any real point in opening this argument again, the incident you refer to was more a lapse of judgement or naivety rather than antisemitism, one he apologised for once he was made aware of the details of the mural. Is that really evidence of someone being antisemitic though? Certain political figures have declared allegiance to antisemitic parties in Eastern Europe and have written about Jews controlling the media and more, and they don’t come from the Labour Party - the party historically of civil rights and equality.

History and polls suggest right wing parties and voters tend to be more tolerant of all forms of racism and discrimination, but this is pretty obvious if you just look at the average daily mail reader. People don’t expect the Conservatives to be whiter than white or even be particularly nice, so there is no media furore when they don’t meet expectations, because there aren’t any, relatively speaking. All this is compounded by the fact that much of the media has no interest in scrutinising the Conservative party in the same way on these issues, firstly because they and their voters aren’t expected to be the party of tolerance and equality, but also because it’s not in the interests of right wing media to report on antisemitism and racism within the Tory party in the same way it benefits them to create narratives about Labour to hurt them electorally.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-conservative-party-anti-semitism-crisis-nobody-talks-about-169874/amp/

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/tories-exploiting-jewish-fears-antisemitism/

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

 

 

His held beliefs like wearing ties and riding bikes.

Honestly, aside from the headline spying one, and the strange Panama papers one - although that’s far more recent and post-leadership, I don’t see anything in there that isn’t levelled at other leaders (particularly Boris Johnson) in alternative media and social media and considered either entirely justified or lighthearted. For instance, someone says: “Do you really want someone who looks like Boris running the country?” and drops the mic in pride. Someone else says exactly the same about Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters shout how unfair it is.

 

Meanwhile Ed Milliband was deliberately and repeatedly shown to appear stupid, with images of bananas, bacon sandwiches, etc., and attributed with beliefs that he didn’t hold. The beliefs Corbyn was attributed with came from his own mouth, either past, present or manifesto.

 

As for antisemitism, I do agree with @HighPeakFox to the extent that the stuff about Milliband’s father smacked of antisemitism itself and was deeply ironic given the criticism of Corbyn that followed. I have no desire to defend the Daily Mail for that. But to me the former was wrong and the latter was fair given what happened to Labour. I don’t see Corbyn as some raging antisemite myself. But I do think he hid in his office and let it happen, and opened himself up to more reasonable questions given the situation. Labour under him deserved the criticism it got, and Starmer has been very brave in my eyes in managing to get on top of it.

[HighPeakFox]

7 hours ago, eblair said:

‘Accused corbyn of…’

 

bloke defended a mural which looked like Goebbels had drawn himself. Has appeared defending or alongside some of worst people on planet. Managed to transform the Labour Party to a place where delegates start ranting about the current leaders Jewish wife. 
 

Bloke is repugnant 

I'm sorry, but the fact you've swallowed all the above whole really only tells me where you receive your 'information' from and how critically (or otherwise) you assess it.

[ealingfox]

7 hours ago, Dunge said:

Honestly, aside from the headline spying one, and the strange Panama papers one - although that’s far more recent and post-leadership, I don’t see anything in there that isn’t levelled at other leaders (particularly Boris Johnson) in alternative media and social media and considered either entirely justified or lighthearted. For instance, someone says: “Do you really want someone who looks like Boris running the country?” and drops the mic in pride. Someone else says exactly the same about Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters shout how unfair it is.

 

Meanwhile Ed Milliband was deliberately and repeatedly shown to appear stupid, with images of bananas, bacon sandwiches, etc., and attributed with beliefs that he didn’t hold. The beliefs Corbyn was attributed with came from his own mouth, either past, present or manifesto.

 

As for antisemitism, I do agree with @HighPeakFox to the extent that the stuff about Milliband’s father smacked of antisemitism itself and was deeply ironic given the criticism of Corbyn that followed. I have no desire to defend the Daily Mail for that. But to me the former was wrong and the latter was fair given what happened to Labour. I don’t see Corbyn as some raging antisemite myself. But I do think he hid in his office and let it happen, and opened himself up to more reasonable questions given the situation. Labour under him deserved the criticism it got, and Starmer has been very brave in my eyes in managing to get on top of it.

 

But that's exactly the point - that stuff isn't in alternative media and social media. It's in the mainstream and establishment media.