Not The Politics Thread.

[Voll Blau]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

It's always been very violent no? I felt like there was less of an undercurrent of violence in other countries I've lived in than in the UK. 

Two MPs stabbed to death in the last five years in their own constituencies though. That accounts for almost a quarter of the total assassinations, or alleged assassinations (in today's instance), of MPs over the past two centuries.

 

Six of the previous seven were carried out by the IRA or similar Irish Republican groups and the other was Spencer Percival in 1812. You can't describe the two most recent incidents as a trend but it's deeply shocking, whichever way you look at it.

[Matt_Lcfc]

A terrible day for democracy. Unfortunately, I think both sides of the political spectrum need to learn that personal attacks across the chamber do no good and merely add to the toxicity in this country.

Edited 15 October 2021 by Matt_Lcfc

[bovril]

Just now, Voll Blau said:

Two MPs stabbed to death in the last five years in their own constituencies though. That accounts for almost a quarter of the total assassinations, or alleged assassinations (in today's instance), of MPs over the past two centuries.

 

Six of the previous seven were carried out by the IRA or similar Irish Republican groups and the other was Spencer Percival in 1812. You can't describe the two most recent incidents as a trend but it's deeply shocking, whichever way you look at it.

Good point.

[Nalis]

Just very sad and mindless, RIP

[Matt_Lcfc]

11 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Two MPs stabbed to death in the last five years in their own constituencies though. That accounts for almost a quarter of the total assassinations, or alleged assassinations (in today's instance), of MPs over the past two centuries.

 

Six of the previous seven were carried out by the IRA or similar Irish Republican groups and the other was Spencer Percival in 1812. You can't describe the two most recent incidents as a trend but it's deeply shocking, whichever way you look at it.

Politics has definitely become more violent in recent years. I think it’s far too easy for people to blame Brexit, of course this has increased the toxic nature but it clearly more deep-rooted.

 

Honestly think that in the past few years the two mainstream political parties have become so dealigned from each other which has just led to unprecedented amounts of conflict. It’s hard to explain why but maybe populism is to blame? I feel that in recent years the house has had less mature conversation and more personal attacks on each other. This is always going to incite hatred in the wider society. 
 

Political violence has been evident in other countries too, see the US Capitol for example. Something has clearly gone wrong for ‘Liberal’ democracies.

Edited 15 October 2021 by Matt_Lcfc

[Innovindil]

RIP Sir David.

 

Nothing else needs saying at this point. 

[Zear0]

Murdered whilst literally helping out people in the community.  RIP.

[StanSP]

Very sad day for the country to hear he has died. It was bad enough hearing of the stabbing but just sad and heartbreaking to know someone who was probably just doing their best to listen and engage with people has had to suffer this fate today

 

RIP. 

[SemperEadem]

Terribly sad news.

[Stadt]

I realised I recognised him from Brass Eye which seems so crass at this time. He had a remarkable record of holding surgerie. An MP that genuinely cared about his community and not one parachuted in without a thought for the constituents. Rest In Peace.

[Sampson]

11 minutes ago, Matt_Lcfc said:

Politics has definitely become more violent in recent years. I think it’s far too easy for people to blame Brexit, of course this has increased the toxic nature but it clearly more deep-rooted.

 

Honestly think that in the past few years the two mainstream political parties have become so dealigned from each other which has just led to unprecedented amounts of conflict. It’s hard to explain why but maybe populism is to blame? I feel that in recent years the house has had less mature conversation and more personal attacks on each other. This is always going to incite hatred in the wider society. 
 

Political violence has been evident in other countries too, see the US Capitol for example. Something has clearly gone wrong for ‘Liberal’ democracies.

It's an interesting discussion.

I don't think Brexit necessarily started the fire, as Billy Joel would sing - as you say, this isn't just a problem in the UK, although we are probably one of the countries where the political discourse over the past decade seems to have become the most entrenched and divisive. I think it all ultimately goes back to the financial crisis and austerity, but Brexit was the culmination in itself of austerity and the financial crisis in a lot of ways and it brought to the forefront the bubbling undercurrent of unrest in society in a lot of ways. Brexit just through a load of coal and wood on the fire and stoked it and got it properly roaring.

I think when we look back in history at this period it will begin with the 2008 financial crisis and how things spiralled out of control from there, much like many talk about the build up to WW2 in the spiralling out of control since the Great Depression of 1929.

Btw, talking about that Blair and Brown documentary on BBC One, I remember them doing a Cameron one a couple of years ago, where George Osbourne and Nick Clegg were trying to convince Cameron not to call a referendum when he was deciding to campaign on it around 2012-ish. I think Cameron deep down didn't want to call it but thought it would quell the rebels in his party. Osbourne said he tried to talk to him and ask him about the pros and cons of calling a referendum, he said all the pros about in-party fighting, getting it out the way so they could actually govern etc., then when Osbourne asked him the cons, I can't remember the exact quote, so I'm paraphrasing, but according to Osbourne, Cameron allegedly said something along the lines of "it could release dragons, the likes of which this country has never seen". So I think even back in 2012 when they were discussing whether to hold a referendum or not, they understood the kind of division this could bring on the country.

It's definitely messed up that 2 MPs have now been murdered since the beginning of the referendum campaign, regardless. As Voll Blue said, it's not necessarily a trend, but I think we can all feel in the air how the political discourse in this country has changed since 2016 and that it would sadly surprise no one if this did start to become a worrying trend. 

[Bert]

What is wrong with people? Seriously, we need to start handing out tougher sentences. Life for life. 

 

RIP Sir David. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

Sad thing is nobody will learn from this, next month it'll be Tory scum, commie bastard

[RonnieTodger]

Seriously scary stuff. 

RIP 

[Matt_Lcfc]

24 minutes ago, Sampson said:

It's an interesting discussion.

I don't think Brexit necessarily started the fire, as Billy Joel would sing - as you say, this isn't just a problem in the UK, although we are probably one of the countries where the political discourse over the past decade seems to have become the most entrenched and divisive. I think it all ultimately goes back to the financial crisis and austerity, but Brexit was the culmination in itself of austerity and the financial crisis in a lot of ways and it brought to the forefront the bubbling undercurrent of unrest in society in a lot of ways. Brexit just through a load of coal and wood on the fire and stoked it and got it properly roaring.

I think when we look back in history at this period it will begin with the 2008 financial crisis and how things spiralled out of control from there, much like many talk about the build up to WW2 in the spiralling out of control since the Great Depression of 1929.

Btw, talking about that Blair and Brown documentary on BBC One, I remember them doing a Cameron one a couple of years ago, where George Osbourne and Nick Clegg were trying to convince Cameron not to call a referendum when he was deciding to campaign on it around 2012-ish. I think Cameron deep down didn't want to call it but thought it would quell the rebels in his party. Osbourne said he tried to talk to him and ask him about the pros and cons of calling a referendum, he said all the pros about in-party fighting, getting it out the way so they could actually govern etc., then when Osbourne asked him the cons, I can't remember the exact quote, so I'm paraphrasing, but according to Osbourne, Cameron allegedly said something along the lines of "it could release dragons, the likes of which this country has never seen". So I think even back in 2012 when they were discussing whether to hold a referendum or not, they understood the kind of division this could bring on the country.

It's definitely messed up that 2 MPs have now been murdered since the beginning of the referendum campaign, regardless. As Voll Blue said, it's not necessarily a trend, but I think we can all feel in the air how the political discourse in this country has changed since 2016 and that it would sadly surprise no one if this did start to become a worrying trend. 

It is an interesting topic and I am sure it’ll be researched in academia for many years to come. I think if you were to a pick a time where political discourse started, then 2008 would be appropriate. Your analogy about Brexit is bang on.

 

I am just about too young to have any vivid memory of the financial crash; however, looking at stats, it is evident that since then inequality has increased both socially and economically. It is tough as we have reached a period of economic hardship but this has been greeted with populism. I feel that in many cases, politics no longer brings rational and sensible debate - but more, which leader can shout the loudest over the podium. For me, this is why figures like Johnson and Trump have been so successful. 
 

Fundamentally, the 2016 debate fuelled this anger with groups being marginalised - for example, migrants were blamed for ‘taking jobs.’ Unfortunately, events such as today are a product of the direction in which politics has gone in recent years. I am not too sure how you solve this either, however, I really hope that those within the political arena tone abuse down and move towards sensible conversation in the future.

Edited 15 October 2021 by Matt_Lcfc

[lgfualol]

Shocking. 2 in 5 years. Rip.

[Scotch]

Why has the scum that's done this only been arreated for murder? Surely, violence for political reasons is the very definition of terrorism? 

[ClaphamFox]

5 minutes ago, Scotch said:

Why has the scum that's done this only been arreated for murder? Surely, violence for political reasons is the very definition of terrorism? 

We don’t know why he did it yet. I’m sure if it’s terrorism the police will charge him with that. 

[bovril]

Counter terrorism police taking over apparently. 

[Arriba Los Zorros]

FFS what a stupid act, soon politicians will need bloody police escorts.

[Arriba Los Zorros]

5 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

We don’t know why he did it yet. I’m sure if it’s terrorism the police will charge him with that. 

It is terrorism - killing a public figure for political reasons is terrorism, you don't have to be a Muslim to be a terrorist.

 

Edit: unless its something personal.

Edited 15 October 2021 by Arriba Los Zorros

[stripeyfox]

Absolutely terrible. It is such a fundamental part of our democracy that our MP's are accessible. 

 

Regardless of political leanings, the only thing to say is rest in peace to this poor man and condolences to his family

[Sampson]

24 minutes ago, Scotch said:

Why has the scum that's done this only been arreated for murder? Surely, violence for political reasons is the very definition of terrorism? 

As Clapham Fox said, it's just the motivation. It very likely is going to be political and then he will be charged on terrorism charges, but until the killer's motivation is established it has to be considered murder in case the killer knew him personally and it was due to a personal argument or something.

[LiberalFox]

Absolutely terrible. Last time (Jo Cox) it was someone who had become isolated and radicalised in their own home. We'll maybe find out in the coming days what motivated someone to do this. 

[Adrian]

6 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Absolutely terrible. Last time (Jo Cox) it was someone who had become isolated and radicalised in their own home. We'll maybe find out in the coming days what motivated someone to do this. 

not sure we are allowed to speculate on motives/reasons yet..

Edited 15 October 2021 by Adrian