Brendan Rodgers

[ElusiveEd]

4 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....he stopped sulking!!!

We all saw these series of games as ideal for a new manager to take on to ease him into the league. The teams we have played have been unbelievable poor, why are we so surprised about the points we have recently garnished. 

Because we were unbelievably poor too. The difference is, we ain’t anymore and they still are. 
 

And there was no shame in losing 1-0 to Man City. It wasn’t even a goal in open play. 
 

I’ve seen a turnaround in play, not just results. 

[Dahnsouff]

10 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....he stopped sulking!!!

We all saw these series of games as ideal for a new manager to take on to ease him into the league. The teams we have played have been unbelievable poor, why are we so surprised about the points we have recently garnished. 

You see irreparably entrenched. If you think the recent 4 clean sheets is down to just the opponents, I would suggest you did not watch the games. There is a greater calmness in defence, and this may come from winning one, then two to breed confidence, but the levels have been so much higher than at the start of the season, long may it continue.

[foxfanazer]

It'd be insincere to pretend that we haven't improved considerably recently. Yes the teams we've beaten have been tragic but then again so were we! The defence seems less chaotic and we're making far less individuals errors. Having said that I did fear we were gonna blow it yesterday the way we came out for the second half. That seems a common theme under Rodgers.

 

I still don't see him as the long term choice for the club but right now results are all that matter and there's no immediate need for change 

[Dan LCFC]

19 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....he stopped sulking!!!

We all saw these series of games as ideal for a new manager to take on to ease him into the league. The teams we have played have been unbelievable poor, why are we so surprised about the points we have recently garnished. 

Agree to an extent but it's more how much harder to break down we've been. We've maybe been a little fortunate to have only conceded three times but we used to be as easy to create a chance as anyone I've seen at this level. I've no doubt if that game yesterday was back in August/September we'd have lost 3-1 and caved under their constant crossing.

 

I sort of fancy us next week as well which is mad given where things were. I'd have had it as an absolutely nailed defeat not long ago.

[Gazza M]

If there is quite a bit of activity in Jan I think you can say the club are backing him long term to try and build something new here. If it is dead with just outgoings them he might start sulking again. 

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

 

Disagree tiki-taka has fell off, i'd say its at its peak, unfortunately.

 

Perhaps the teams who got most success out of it have or are moving on and/or evolving but there are a majority of teams playing catching up thinking this is how the game must be played.

 

Also disagree with Striders opinion of mid table teams wanting to counter more than controlling games. I'd confidently say the majority of teams want to play insipid, controlling, possession, tiki-taka.

 

I find it strange teams don't do what they're good at, getting the best out of players at their disposal, i'm sure tiki-taka is good for certain teams but not most, why most teams play this way regardless rather than playing to their strengths is beyond me.

 

There is alot of stigma surrounding certain old school type managers, atleast they offered something different other than this insipid, uninspiring, one size fits all style, they are not the answer and i'm not claiming they are but they're often labelled as dinosaurs, anti-football, e.t.c, well this is exactly my opinion of tiki taka, total, possession football, football is about going forwards, creating chances, excitement, not soaking up possession, going no where with it, creating little, but atleast you've 'controlled the game'.

 

In your opinion, what is the answer to creating a successful team that goes forwards, creates chances and is exciting?

 

- Route one football does not work at the top level anymore because you lose possession cheaply, then can't get the ball back anymore and can't create chances.

 

- Possession football means you get more of the ball and thus can make chances. There are scientific papers and research which prove that on average more possession means more likelihood to win games. This is one of the big reasons why top teams especially try to have lots of possession:
https://scielo.pt/pdf/mot/v16n4/2182-2972-mot-16-04-0319.pdf

- Counter Attacking is an extremely effective strategy, especially against teams that have lots of possession. But it does not work against teams that themselves look to counter attack. This happened to us post title win and is why we had to reinvent ourselves.

 

- Counter Pressing is effective because most goals at the Elite level come from mistakes and not from putting a move together. So force your opponent into making more mistakes = score more goals. But it is extremely tiring for players and can't be sustained for 90 minutes.

 

The Modern Premier League has evolved into it's current form as a result of foreign coaches, more money in the league and data science allowing teams to pinpoint what is and isn't working. And that's why certain things are seen more often now than in the past.

- Teams play out from the back more often because if you beat an opponent's press, it can lead to goal scoring opportunities.

- Teams don't play long as often because statistically you turn the ball over more often, which means more pressure on your own goal.

- Teams play the ball side-to-side to shift the opposition defensive block from one side to the other, to try to isolate a full back or winger in a 2v1 situation on either side of the field.

- Playing the ball side-to-side means you spend less energy and make the opponents spend more because they are chasing the ball.

 

If you look at stats from the past couple of seasons, teams are on average passing the ball less than in previous years, and are instead trying to play more progressive passes to break the lines. So if you think tiki-taka is at it's peak, you are objectively wrong, as the stats do no back that up.

https://fbref.com

 

Football is an ever-evolving sport so what works today is not proven to work tomorrow. The way that the full back position went from being an afterthought to one of the most important positions in the game is a great example of how the game has changed. I think there are a lot of fans, especially older ones, that are still stuck in the 70's and 80's when football was more direct and physical. Perhaps they even find that sort of football more enjoyable to watch. But given the insane amount of money in the game, the sport has evolved into maximising every aspect to try and win, and that's why across Europe the teams that win are winning with more points than they ever did before. They've literally got winning down to a science.

[Countryfox]

5 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

In your opinion, what is the answer to creating a successful team that goes forwards, creates chances and is exciting?

 

- Route one football does not work at the top level anymore because you lose possession cheaply, then can't get the ball back anymore and can't create chances.

 

- Possession football means you get more of the ball and thus can make chances. There are scientific papers and research which prove that on average more possession means more likelihood to win games. This is one of the big reasons why top teams especially try to have lots of possession:
https://scielo.pt/pdf/mot/v16n4/2182-2972-mot-16-04-0319.pdf

- Counter Attacking is an extremely effective strategy, especially against teams that have lots of possession. But it does not work against teams that themselves look to counter attack. This happened to us post title win and is why we had to reinvent ourselves.

 

- Counter Pressing is effective because most goals at the Elite level come from mistakes and not from putting a move together. So force your opponent into making more mistakes = score more goals. But it is extremely tiring for players and can't be sustained for 90 minutes.

 

The Modern Premier League has evolved into it's current form as a result of foreign coaches, more money in the league and data science allowing teams to pinpoint what is and isn't working. And that's why certain things are seen more often now than in the past.

- Teams play out from the back more often because if you beat an opponent's press, it can lead to goal scoring opportunities.

- Teams don't play long as often because statistically you turn the ball over more often, which means more pressure on your own goal.

- Teams play the ball side-to-side to shift the opposition defensive block from one side to the other, to try to isolate a full back or winger in a 2v1 situation on either side of the field.

- Playing the ball side-to-side means you spend less energy and make the opponents spend more because they are chasing the ball.

 

If you look at stats from the past couple of seasons, teams are on average passing the ball less than in previous years, and are instead trying to play more progressive passes to break the lines. So if you think tiki-taka is at it's peak, you are objectively wrong, as the stats do no back that up.

https://fbref.com

 

Football is an ever-evolving sport so what works today is not proven to work tomorrow. The way that the full back position went from being an afterthought to one of the most important positions in the game is a great example of how the game has changed. I think there are a lot of fans, especially older ones, that are still stuck in the 70's and 80's when football was more direct and physical. Perhaps they even find that sort of football more enjoyable to watch. But given the insane amount of money in the game, the sport has evolved into maximising every aspect to try and win, and that's why across Europe the teams that win are winning with more points than they ever did before. They've literally got winning down to a science.

Was just going to say that ..   

[An Sionnach]

6 hours ago, Dames said:

But my point is we’ve been here before in almost identical circumstances with changes to the style and he always without fail reverts back to the sideways ‘control’ style he loves. 

Keep your fingers crossed that he has finally seen the light. If he and his players are singing from the same song sheet , then we are back in business.

[Unabomber]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

In your opinion, what is the answer to creating a successful team that goes forwards, creates chances and is exciting?

 

- Route one football does not work at the top level anymore because you lose possession cheaply, then can't get the ball back anymore and can't create chances.

 

- Possession football means you get more of the ball and thus can make chances. There are scientific papers and research which prove that on average more possession means more likelihood to win games. This is one of the big reasons why top teams especially try to have lots of possession:
https://scielo.pt/pdf/mot/v16n4/2182-2972-mot-16-04-0319.pdf

- Counter Attacking is an extremely effective strategy, especially against teams that have lots of possession. But it does not work against teams that themselves look to counter attack. This happened to us post title win and is why we had to reinvent ourselves.

 

- Counter Pressing is effective because most goals at the Elite level come from mistakes and not from putting a move together. So force your opponent into making more mistakes = score more goals. But it is extremely tiring for players and can't be sustained for 90 minutes.

 

The Modern Premier League has evolved into it's current form as a result of foreign coaches, more money in the league and data science allowing teams to pinpoint what is and isn't working. And that's why certain things are seen more often now than in the past.

- Teams play out from the back more often because if you beat an opponent's press, it can lead to goal scoring opportunities.

- Teams don't play long as often because statistically you turn the ball over more often, which means more pressure on your own goal.

- Teams play the ball side-to-side to shift the opposition defensive block from one side to the other, to try to isolate a full back or winger in a 2v1 situation on either side of the field.

- Playing the ball side-to-side means you spend less energy and make the opponents spend more because they are chasing the ball.

 

If you look at stats from the past couple of seasons, teams are on average passing the ball less than in previous years, and are instead trying to play more progressive passes to break the lines. So if you think tiki-taka is at it's peak, you are objectively wrong, as the stats do no back that up.

https://fbref.com

 

Football is an ever-evolving sport so what works today is not proven to work tomorrow. The way that the full back position went from being an afterthought to one of the most important positions in the game is a great example of how the game has changed. I think there are a lot of fans, especially older ones, that are still stuck in the 70's and 80's when football was more direct and physical. Perhaps they even find that sort of football more enjoyable to watch. But given the insane amount of money in the game, the sport has evolved into maximising every aspect to try and win, and that's why across Europe the teams that win are winning with more points than they ever did before. They've literally got winning down to a science.

I think you’ve got him there tbf

[Gazza3]

The media  narrative is that since Faes signed the defence has been far better. This is also the time the new set piece coach arrived. Has the change been down to simply better coaching and understanding of what is required. I find it hard to believe that an unknown defender has turned up and told everyone how to defend, also hard to believe that Rodgers suddenly changed what he has failed to for the last18 months . So is it all down to the new coach. If so it just shows how poor a coach Rodgers is . Probably Rodgers will take the credit but should he ?

[Dahnsouff]

Isn’t it more likely to be combination of all the changes, rather than a magic coach, a magic new player or the manager having an epiphany?

[Vazman]

4 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Isn’t it more likely to be combination of all the changes, rather than a magic coach, a magic new player or the manager having an epiphany?

Just like the Manager gets it in the neck when the team are not performing, should the manager get the plaudits when there is an upturn in performances.

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Vazman said:

Just like the Manager gets it in the neck when the team are not performing, should the manager get the plaudits when there is an upturn in performances.

Depends what flag you are waving. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

In your opinion, what is the answer to creating a successful team that goes forwards, creates chances and is exciting?

 

- Route one football does not work at the top level anymore because you lose possession cheaply, then can't get the ball back anymore and can't create chances.

 

- Possession football means you get more of the ball and thus can make chances. There are scientific papers and research which prove that on average more possession means more likelihood to win games. This is one of the big reasons why top teams especially try to have lots of possession:
https://scielo.pt/pdf/mot/v16n4/2182-2972-mot-16-04-0319.pdf

- Counter Attacking is an extremely effective strategy, especially against teams that have lots of possession. But it does not work against teams that themselves look to counter attack. This happened to us post title win and is why we had to reinvent ourselves.

 

- Counter Pressing is effective because most goals at the Elite level come from mistakes and not from putting a move together. So force your opponent into making more mistakes = score more goals. But it is extremely tiring for players and can't be sustained for 90 minutes.

 

The Modern Premier League has evolved into it's current form as a result of foreign coaches, more money in the league and data science allowing teams to pinpoint what is and isn't working. And that's why certain things are seen more often now than in the past.

- Teams play out from the back more often because if you beat an opponent's press, it can lead to goal scoring opportunities.

- Teams don't play long as often because statistically you turn the ball over more often, which means more pressure on your own goal.

- Teams play the ball side-to-side to shift the opposition defensive block from one side to the other, to try to isolate a full back or winger in a 2v1 situation on either side of the field.

- Playing the ball side-to-side means you spend less energy and make the opponents spend more because they are chasing the ball.

 

If you look at stats from the past couple of seasons, teams are on average passing the ball less than in previous years, and are instead trying to play more progressive passes to break the lines. So if you think tiki-taka is at it's peak, you are objectively wrong, as the stats do no back that up.

https://fbref.com

 

Football is an ever-evolving sport so what works today is not proven to work tomorrow. The way that the full back position went from being an afterthought to one of the most important positions in the game is a great example of how the game has changed. I think there are a lot of fans, especially older ones, that are still stuck in the 70's and 80's when football was more direct and physical. Perhaps they even find that sort of football more enjoyable to watch. But given the insane amount of money in the game, the sport has evolved into maximising every aspect to try and win, and that's why across Europe the teams that win are winning with more points than they ever did before. They've literally got winning down to a science.

Personally I’d like to see a mix of all.

 

It’s not a choice all or nothing, one or the other, it certainly shouldn’t be anyway.

 

There is a time and place for all but doing exclusively one is boring, tedious, predictable and very easy to play against.

 

But most teams seem to have to and want to play in this one regimented way.

 

I hate cliches of “the [insert club name] way” but clubs have lost their identities.

 

As you said in your original post Real Madrid have arguably had the most success playing in a range or mix of styles. 
 

I said yesterday we’ve done well in the last few games, arguably having less possession than we’ve been accustomed to in the last 2 years, we’ve looked far better for it, we’ve been more effective, exciting, creating more chances and positive for it.

[Leeds Fox]

1 hour ago, Gazza M said:

If there is quite a bit of activity in Jan I think you can say the club are backing him long term to try and build something new here. If it is dead with just outgoings them he might start sulking again. 

In reality though… does he want to be here long term? I’d say that’s part of the problem here I think. 

[J. James]

2 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....he stopped sulking!!!

We all saw these series of games as ideal for a new manager to take on to ease him into the league. The teams we have played have been unbelievable poor, why are we so surprised about the points we have recently garnished. 

Again, the assumption which magically morphs into fact that Rodgers WAS sulking!

And personally I'm not surprised so much as delighted.

Most (including me)  gave us no chance a month ago, now Rodgers has walked the walk and proven us wrong and l for one will say fair do's and admit l was premature in my belief that he could not get us winning again.

 

[SafewayFox]

8 hours ago, tickler28 said:

Its cracking me up how many people on this thread are unwilling to admit they called it wrong....trying to justify their position by what he said...what he did etc.....as far as I can remember he never said anything that bad....just stop trying to make the narrative fit your agenda and close this thread.

So to clarify, conceding the most amount of goals after the first 7 games of the season in PL history.

 

Or dropping 30 points from winning positions in 2022 and us rooted to the bottom of the table after the aforementioned 7 games should all be forgotten?

 

If he got sacked for the above, he wouldn’t have any complaints.

 

Any LCFC fan is clearly happy with our recent form but not sure what re-writing the narrative that you’re trying to point out is in relation to?

Edited 6 November 2022 by SafewayFox

[foxfanazer]

58 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Isn’t it more likely to be combination of all the changes, rather than a magic coach, a magic new player or the manager having an epiphany?

Yeah I think this is fair. Also we have more players capable of individual moments of brilliance than most teams in the bottom half of the league. Everton being a prime example of that! What they'd have given for a Maddison, Barnes or Tielemans last night

[An Sionnach]

Perhaps Rodgers has flushed his notebook, computer simulations and statistical analysis charts down the tubes and finally realised that football is played by human beings. The infinitesimal amount of thinking that goes through eleven players brains during a match cannot be simulated or accounted for. Guidance is necessary but ultimately the players as a unit have to make the crucial decisions themselves. These players are among the highest skilled players of the game in the world and you have to accept they know what they are doing.

[foxfanazer]

22 minutes ago, SafewayFox said:

So to clarify, conceding the most amount of goals after the first 7 games of the season in PL history.

 

Or dropping 30 points from winning positions in 2022 and us rooted to the bottom of the table after the aforementioned 7 games should all be forgotten?

 

If he got sacked for the above, he wouldn’t have any complaints.

 

Any LCFC fan is clearly happy with our recent form but not sure what re-writing the narrative that you’re trying to point out is in relation to?

Enjoy the incoming reply of no substance 

[Chico1958]

Are we really still discussing this.

 

I don't care what's happened, we've got 14 points by the end of November 

 

I said 7 points and he should go 10 or more then I'd Stick 

 

For whatever reason we've turned it around for now and I'm Happy  

[Gazza M]

1 hour ago, Leeds Fox said:

In reality though… does he want to be here long term? I’d say that’s part of the problem here I think. 

In his ideal world maybe kicking himself Potter got the Chelsea job as Rodgers was ahead of him in the pecking order for last couple of years until the dreadful run. He is having to rebuild his reputation,  so with us for the foreseeable. 

[Chrysalis]

3 hours ago, Gazza3 said:

The media  narrative is that since Faes signed the defence has been far better. This is also the time the new set piece coach arrived. Has the change been down to simply better coaching and understanding of what is required. I find it hard to believe that an unknown defender has turned up and told everyone how to defend, also hard to believe that Rodgers suddenly changed what he has failed to for the last18 months . So is it all down to the new coach. If so it just shows how poor a coach Rodgers is . Probably Rodgers will take the credit but should he ?

From the last game and comparing to when we were on that horrid run.

 

Mixture of the following.

 

1 - Faes been much more aggressive, he doesnt always win the ball, but does always try to.  Seeing him win the ball in the last game with the other player falling over was a real blessing cannot remember last time we had someone go in so heavy to win the ball.

2 - Evans not in the side, he hasnt been at his best for a while.

3 - Improvement at defensive set pieces.

4 - More counters launched from defensive positions instead of hogging ball at the back.

5 - More direct play in general.

6 - Tielemans has upped his game.

7 - Maddison upped his game.

8 - Some good fortune, Everton certainly had their chances in the last game e.g.

Edited 6 November 2022 by Chrysalis

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, An Sionnach said:

Perhaps Rodgers has flushed his notebook, computer simulations and statistical analysis charts down the tubes and finally realised that football is played by human beings. The infinitesimal amount of thinking that goes through eleven players brains during a match cannot be simulated or accounted for. Guidance is necessary but ultimately the players as a unit have to make the crucial decisions themselves. These players are among the highest skilled players of the game in the world and you have to accept they know what they are doing.

...players are confined to a strategy defined by their manager!!!

  They can play within the framework of that strategy without straying into playing for themselves. 

[Nod.E]

5 hours ago, foxfanazer said:

It'd be insincere to pretend that we haven't improved considerably recently. Yes the teams we've beaten have been tragic but then again so were we! The defence seems less chaotic and we're making far less individuals errors. Having said that I did fear we were gonna blow it yesterday the way we came out for the second half. That seems a common theme under Rodgers.

 

I still don't see him as the long term choice for the club but right now results are all that matter and there's no immediate need for change 

Yep.

 

At this point I'm hoping for an uneventful midtable finish and a cup run.

 

Rodgers gets approached in the off season and chooses to take the job, reputation in tact. 

 

That's what I hope will happen.

 

In reality I think he'll stick around and we continue to underachieve for a year or two longer and we make a pig's ear of rebuilding the squad under his stewardship.

 

Credit where it's due though, we're more solid and we haven't had a ridiculous sub for a while now. More than that, we totally deserved to beat Everton in their back yard. Doesn't matter how poor they might be at the moment, that's never easy to do.

 

Still a lot of football to play of course, but it appears I was wrong to think that keeping Rodgers was as much as guaranteeing relegation.