Brendan Rodgers

[Jobyfox]

I imagine that if we have a poor second half to the season then some of the calls for Rodgers to go will get louder. Personally, I don’t think that we should be worrying about changing the manager on the caveat that: we don’t start troubling the relegation battle. I’m not sure that it’s Rodgers’s fault that we’ve failed to sign anyone in January. We seem to be tightening our belts more rigidly than other clubs post pandemic.

 

There are a few questions, however, regarding overall transfer strategy:

I think it’s always a missed opportunity in the summer if you don’t manage to improve your starting eleven - especially if you manage to keep hold of your best players. We increased squad depth, but it’s debateable whether any of the new signings would start if everyone was fit. The threshold of what we could achieve was, therefore, always likely to be no better than last season, but probably worse with others strengthening.

 

The late signings of Vestergaard and Bertrand also seemed to have scuppered us. That’s almost certainly where the January transfer budget went. We’d almost certainly have been better off with the money in the bank and the wage budget saved than making these signings – even if we didn’t manage to sign anybody else. I’d love to know how much Brendan was involved in chasing these players. If he wasn’t directly accountable himself then I’d be looking at who is advising in this respect. I know that all transfers carry risk, but these seem to be pretty big ones and, with not too much scouting, could have been easily foreseeable and avoided. Panic signings is an explanation, but not really a defence.

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Scotch said:

In terms of us, Celtic and Liverpool fans not seeing him as the "tactical genius" that others do from the outside looking in is that we see the mistakes he makes more often. The wrong subs at the wrong time, defending leads too early, making the wrong tactical adjustments.... We see him do it in more detail, more often. We are not just looking at a results page at the score after the game or a league table when the season is done. 

 

Not to say that he's not a good manager and that other top managers don't make the same mistakes but I think for a large selection of supporters, it's hard to look past some of his decisions or how long it takes him to address certain issues and see him as an elite manager. 

 

I personally believe that it's his pride and stubbornness that holds him back. I think he wants to be proven right more than he I willing to admit getting something wrong but the knowledge is there to put him in that top tier of managers. 

It wasn't so much that his previous clubs fans didn't view him as a tactical genius but that large sections of their fans didn't appreciate him at all and wanted him gone!

[Corky]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Was a fascinating snippet on Rodgers on talksport at the weekend where Chris Wilder said what a tactical genius and coach he was. Afterwards the presenters were saying how odd it was that Rodgers doesn't get the respect and adulation he probably deserves if you go off what players and those in football think of him. 

 

They went on to say that Liverpool, Celtic and Leicester fans had and have huge sections of the support that no longer want him. They have a point but there are reasons behind it, especially for Liverpool.

He's a manager, as has been said, where you can view most of his career in two ways and choose which way you go.

[Jobyfox]

People refer to pride and stubbornness, but I actually think they are generally good traits for a manager to have. A team needs to have a clear game plan and an identity. Teams that do not tend to struggle. Ferguson, Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho even Allardyce have a clear style, which is recognisable and has brought them success. We had that for that one season under Ranieri and we definitely had it under O’Neill.

 

Rodgers will live and die by imposing his style, but I don’t see that he should change to appease a few vocal fans. It needs to be something that he believes in and that he can get the players organised in delivering for him.

 

If I could change one thing it wouldn’t be Brendan’s football philosophy, but his game management. I honestly think he outcoaches himself sometimes with unnecessary decisions. Usually this is a switch to a more defensive system that just invites pressure rather than keeping players in positions to ensure that there is an outlet for the defence (see Brighton h).

[fuchsntf]

8 hours ago, NasPb said:

To degrees though mate. 

Yep.. 3 degrees, They must be singing over our Brendan.. only they Supremely   ran into temptations

 

 

 

 

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

It wasn't so much that his previous clubs fans didn't view him as a tactical genius but that large sections of their fans didn't appreciate him at all and wanted him gone!

And what about the Silent majority,who wanted him to stay..!!

Cherry picking opinions, either side of the discussion ,is total Football forum nonsense...

[BKLFox]

1 hour ago, Jobyfox said:

People refer to pride and stubbornness, but I actually think they are generally good traits for a manager to have. A team needs to have a clear game plan and an identity. Teams that do not tend to struggle. Ferguson, Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho even Allardyce have a clear style, which is recognisable and has brought them success. We had that for that one season under Ranieri and we definitely had it under O’Neill.

 

Rodgers will live and die by imposing his style, but I don’t see that he should change to appease a few vocal fans. It needs to be something that he believes in and that he can get the players organised in delivering for him.

 

If I could change one thing it wouldn’t be Brendan’s football philosophy, but his game management. I honestly think he outcoaches himself sometimes with unnecessary decisions. Usually this is a switch to a more defensive system that just invites pressure rather than keeping players in positions to ensure that there is an outlet for the defence (see Brighton h).

Agree Guardiola for instance doesn't have a Plan B he continues with Plan A & if its not working they up the tempo & work harder on Plan A

Seems Celtic & Liverpool fans are the authority on Rodgers due to being the ex-manager of their team but all Rodgers peers have him as a top top manager, Guadiola always speaks highly of him & his team set up, as does Klopp & just this week Chris Wilder mentioned that playing against a Rodgers side was so hard (caption below) i'll think i'll listen more to his peers than some disgruntled fans.

Who would you class as a ‘tactical genius’?
“I would say everybody has to be competent and above competent to manage at the highest level,” Wilder explained, “but I think you take it to another level and you talk about the likes of Pep Guardiola.
“Brendan Rodgers for me was an incredibly good tactician, the way he played different formations, played different ways. On the balance when you’ve got the best players in the world, there has to be a structure out there but sometimes big moments from world-class players decide games.
“You’re only as good as your players, but I think the balance from the Manchester City manager and the Leicester City manager is right up there for me.”

The assumption that we lose games due to changes in formation is mooted without much thought but simply "we were winning/drawing he changed formation we lost/drew, Rodgers out" & thats as far as it goes.
If we take Brighton the other day what was wrong with switching to the same formation they switched to, it would theoretically mean we just cancel out their change, we didn't take a player or 2 off, if we didn't change & went onto lose would it be then mooted why didn't he adapt to the threat, he changed to match up man4man & our men lost individual battles.
 It's individual drops in performance - take Cags in the 1st half his pass completion rate was 92% in the 2nd this dropped to 62% what has that got to do with changing from a 4 to a 3 or as we didn't win a 5, it should have gone up further as he had more players around him but instead he lacked concentration & was just hacking at the ball which leads to confusion & giving the ball straight back which leads to another attack.

He's not faultless but seems players are if we lose after being in a winning position, Wilders last passage there 'you're only as good as your players' & if there not 100% switched on you can lose games of football regardless what formation you play.

[Jobyfox]

30 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

Agree Guardiola for instance doesn't have a Plan B he continues with Plan A & if its not working they up the tempo & work harder on Plan A

Seems Celtic & Liverpool fans are the authority on Rodgers due to being the ex-manager of their team but all Rodgers peers have him as a top top manager, Guadiola always speaks highly of him & his team set up, as does Klopp & just this week Chris Wilder mentioned that playing against a Rodgers side was so hard (caption below) i'll think i'll listen more to his peers than some disgruntled fans.

Who would you class as a ‘tactical genius’?
“I would say everybody has to be competent and above competent to manage at the highest level,” Wilder explained, “but I think you take it to another level and you talk about the likes of Pep Guardiola.
“Brendan Rodgers for me was an incredibly good tactician, the way he played different formations, played different ways. On the balance when you’ve got the best players in the world, there has to be a structure out there but sometimes big moments from world-class players decide games.
“You’re only as good as your players, but I think the balance from the Manchester City manager and the Leicester City manager is right up there for me.”

The assumption that we lose games due to changes in formation is mooted without much thought but simply "we were winning/drawing he changed formation we lost/drew, Rodgers out" & thats as far as it goes.
If we take Brighton the other day what was wrong with switching to the same formation they switched to, it would theoretically mean we just cancel out their change, we didn't take a player or 2 off, if we didn't change & went onto lose would it be then mooted why didn't he adapt to the threat, he changed to match up man4man & our men lost individual battles.
 It's individual drops in performance - take Cags in the 1st half his pass completion rate was 92% in the 2nd this dropped to 62% what has that got to do with changing from a 4 to a 3 or as we didn't win a 5, it should have gone up further as he had more players around him but instead he lacked concentration & was just hacking at the ball which leads to confusion & giving the ball straight back which leads to another attack.

He's not faultless but seems players are if we lose after being in a winning position, Wilders last passage there 'you're only as good as your players' & if there not 100% switched on you can lose games of football regardless what formation you play.

Good post and I agree with much of what  you say, but specifically Brighton:

 

Rodgers is by no means the only manager who reverts to a defensive structure when a game is being won. Many do it and it often hands the initiative to the team who has to attack.

 

It takes a brave man to stick to a system where you keep more players in attacking positions. I always think formations are only part of it and player instructions and mentality are equally important - but the change in structure and personnel handed the game back to Brighton. There weren’t enough players left on the pitch who were capable of retaining the ball I midfield or transitioning it up the pitch. To be fair to Soyuncu far too often the only ball on was the hopeful punt forwards. 
 

Teams cannot get back into games if you hold the ball in their end of the pitch. They can only do this if you sit back and go defensive. If the team was the 15/16 vintage this would be fine (low block and play on the break), but Brendan is ripping up his philosophy to hold games with personnel who are far less equipped to do so than Morgan, Huth and co. Our style is now high line and possession and the players are more of that mould. 

 

 

[sacreblueits442]

5 hours ago, Scotch said:

I personally believe that it's his pride and stubbornness that holds him back. I think he wants to be proven right more than he I willing to admit getting something wrong but the knowledge is there to put him in that top tier of managers. 

....if you can't get past the last 32 in Europe and being tactically out manoeuvred by all and sundry, does not point to him being able to break into that group!!!

[sacreblueits442]

5 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

It wasn't so much that his previous clubs fans didn't view him as a tactical genius but that large sections of their fans didn't appreciate him at all and wanted him gone!

...a bit like Puel, you have to be living it than looking in from outside of the club!!!

[sacreblueits442]

4 hours ago, Jobyfox said:

If I could change one thing it wouldn’t be Brendan’s football philosophy, but his game management. I honestly think he outcoaches himself sometimes with unnecessary decisions. Usually this is a switch to a more defensive system that just invites pressure rather than keeping players in positions to ensure that there is an outlet for the defence (see Brighton h).

....if he continues to do this, he is neither a good manager or a tactical genius!!!

He did the same thing in his first game for us and we still lost to a late goal, 3 years later and he is still doing it, he does not learn.

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, BKLFox said:

It's individual drops in performance - take Cags in the 1st half his pass completion rate was 92% in the 2nd this dropped to 62% what has that got to do with changing from a 4 to a 3 or as we didn't win a 5, it should have gone up further as he had more players around him but instead he lacked concentration & was just hacking at the ball which leads to confusion & giving the ball straight back which leads to another attack.

He's not faultless but seems players are if we lose after being in a winning position, Wilders last passage there 'you're only as good as your players' & if there not 100% switched on you can lose games of football regardless what formation you play.

....I am sure he must know Cags is poor in a back 3, he doesn't want to come and engage out wide, so he is half way, not stopping balls coming across and leaving a space behind him in the defence!!!

  He just does not want to play in that formation and would be the reason that his stats dropped. If he got the option to play in a team which plays with a back four then I can see him taking the opportunity. Rodgers claims he wants to play a back 4, he plays a high backline with Vestergaard, their are so many issues with Rodgers, he just does not see the obvious and leaves players out to dry.

Edited 1 February 2022 by sacreblueits442

[BKLFox]

15 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....I am sure he must know Cags is poor in a back 3, he doesn't want to come and engage out wide, so he is half way, not stopping balls coming across and leaving a space behind him in the defence!!!

  He just does not want to play in that formation and would be the reason that his stats dropped. If he got the option to play in a team which plays with a back four then I can see him taking the opportunity. Rodgers claims he wants to play a back 4, he plays a high backline with Vestergaard, their are so many issues with Rodgers, he just does not see the obvious and leaves players out to dry.

Cags doesn't want to engage out wide? yet he is very comfortable in tackling (& often losing) on the halfway line with no support behind him, at least if he engaged out wide in a 3 then a CM will slot in behind him or CCB will file over.
What is it about lack of defenders forcing him to play Vestergaard that you don't quite get? When all fit & healthy the default setting will be a back 4 & it won't have Vestergaard anywhere near it. In the meantime he has to play & he has to fit the highline otherwise you are changing 9 players within a system rather than 1.

[NasPb]

All managers are arrogant and stubborn to a degree, but I'd just like to see more tactical flexibility from Rodgers. Simple as that. If he could do that more i wouldn't be on the fence about him.. 

[An Sionnach]

18 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

Cags doesn't want to engage out wide? yet he is very comfortable in tackling (& often losing) on the halfway line with no support behind him, at least if he engaged out wide in a 3 then a CM will slot in behind him or CCB will file over.
What is it about lack of defenders forcing him to play Vestergaard that you don't quite get? When all fit & healthy the default setting will be a back 4 & it won't have Vestergaard anywhere near it. In the meantime he has to play & he has to fit the highline otherwise you are changing 9 players within a system rather than 1.

I often think that prime Vardy would have mullered our defense. 

[BKLFox]

15 minutes ago, NasPb said:

All managers are arrogant and stubborn to a degree, but I'd just like to see more tactical flexibility from Rodgers. Simple as that. If he could do that more i wouldn't be on the fence about him.. 

Isn’t it this that’s getting him into trouble with most? 
Some want to see a rigid formation (not sure which 1) and to not deviate from that regardless of what’s going on on the other side or player availability 🤷‍♂️ 

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...a bit like Puel, you have to be living it than looking in from outside of the club!!!

Yes I sort of agree, but there were actually Celtic fans that were fed up with him and yet they'd won every trophy available under him and had gone one whole season unbeaten. Liverpool I can understand why there were some that wanted him gone, the season they nearly won it was possibly one of the most entertaining teams I've seen in the PL that wasn't one of the juggernaut teams of Mourinho's Chelsea, Pep's Man City or Klopp's Liverpool. They were so outrageous to watch at times but then it was an iffy way to fail to clinch the title and from then on they were getting worse and worse and he rightly went.

 

With us it's a curious one. Done brilliantly but there's still been plenty of room for improvement or things that he really played a huge part in failing on. I still think he's a superb coach and I want him to turn it around, we have to wrestle back total control in recruitment though as he is not in any way proven at rebuilding teams. That's where he does get found wanting.

[NasPb]

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

Isn’t it this that’s getting him into trouble with most? 
Some want to see a rigid formation (not sure which 1) and to not deviate from that regardless of what’s going on on the other side or player availability 🤷‍♂️ 

Nah tactical flexibility is the issue. Ie man marking took him ages too long to get it figured out. He's not a pragmatic coach. His biggest flaw 

[Molson Canadian]

Brendan should have a pizza party for the squad like Claudio did when the team kept a clean sheet against palace that time. 

 

 

[Aus Fox]

58 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Yes I sort of agree, but there were actually Celtic fans that were fed up with him and yet they'd won every trophy available under him and had gone one whole season unbeaten. Liverpool I can understand why there were some that wanted him gone, the season they nearly won it was possibly one of the most entertaining teams I've seen in the PL that wasn't one of the juggernaut teams of Mourinho's Chelsea, Pep's Man City or Klopp's Liverpool. They were so outrageous to watch at times but then it was an iffy way to fail to clinch the title and from then on they were getting worse and worse and he rightly went.

 

With us it's a curious one. Done brilliantly but there's still been plenty of room for improvement or things that he really played a huge part in failing on. I still think he's a superb coach and I want him to turn it around, we have to wrestle back total control in recruitment though as he is not in any way proven at rebuilding teams. That's where he does get found wanting.

To be fair, there are fans of every club who want their manager gone. Football fans are weird and because they watch the team week in week out think they know better, forgetting there is more to picking the team than what they see on a Saturday afternoon. 
Listen to any football phone in and supporters of teams who have lost that week will be calling for the managers head.

There are Man City fans who want Pep to go at the end of last season because he failed again to win a CL. 

[when_you're_smiling]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

I often think that prime Vardy would have mullered our defense. 

Prime Vardy mullered every defence.

[Dan LCFC]

He overcomplicates things a bit I think. No coincidence that our best run under him came with a consistent XI, now I know injuries play a big part but we seem to change system every game, he's gone too far the other way.

[The Year Of The Fox]

10 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

To be fair, there are fans of every club who want their manager gone. Football fans are weird and because they watch the team week in week out think they know better, forgetting there is more to picking the team than what they see on a Saturday afternoon. 
Listen to any football phone in and supporters of teams who have lost that week will be calling for the managers head.

There are Man City fans who want Pep to go at the end of last season because he failed again to win a CL. 

Nah

 

Its not a question of knowing better or not. Nor is it a question of Leicester fans ‘expecting’ too much.
 

 It’s a question of us being incapable of doing the basic things right. 
 

Defending set pieces

Being too defensive

 

Being too reliant on holding on to a lead.

 

Poor substitutions

 

Nobody has to be a tactical genius to see those three things. If Rodgers could only grasp them everything else would fall into place.

 

It wouldn’t be so bad if he was a new manager, but he’s been here three years almost.
 

Most of us are calling the above from the stands, before they’ve actually happened on the pitch. Every week!

 

That’s almost unforgivable for me. Football mismanagement at its finest.

 

God help this forum and Rodgers if we don’t win (handsomely) on Sunday 

 

 

 

Edited 2 February 2022 by The Year Of The Fox

[Dusty]

42 minutes ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Nah

 

Its not a question of knowing better or not. Nor is it a question of Leicester fans ‘expecting’ too much.
 

 It’s a question of us being incapable of doing the basic things right. 
 

Defending set pieces

Being too defensive

 

Being too reliant on holding on to a lead.

 

Poor substitutions

 

Nobody has to be a tactical genius to see those three things. If Rodgers could only grasp them everything else would fall into place.

 

It wouldn’t be so bad if he was a new manager, but he’s been here three years almost.
 

Most of us are calling the above from the stands, before they’ve actually happened on the pitch. Every week!

 

That’s almost unforgivable for me. Football mismanagement at its finest.

 

God help this forum and Rodgers if we don’t win (handsomely) on Sunday 

 

 

 

Did you have an issue when we were defensive against Liverpool after taking the lead? Those substitutions seemed to work quite well too. 
 

You can spin it whatever way you want really. We’ve been poor this season, for me that is down to more than Rodgers although he has played his part. 
 

Offensively I think we’re playing brilliantly atm, we’re scoring lots of goals and lots of players have been playing well over the last few months. We’re going to be a completely different side once we have our back 4 again.

[Dahnsouff]

11 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

To be fair, there are fans of every club who want their manager gone. Football fans are weird and because they watch the team week in week out think they know better, forgetting there is more to picking the team than what they see on a Saturday afternoon. 
Listen to any football phone in and supporters of teams who have lost that week will be calling for the managers head.

There are Man City fans who want Pep to go at the end of last season because he failed again to win a CL. 

Quite agree. Football fans in 'Cannot see the wood for the trees" behaviour